The Cannon Myth: Why I'd Rather Hit Than Bruise

I think because the A Frames have been so damn hard to get but I see at least in 375 H&H they are readily available in several factory loads now.

Back to the point at hand.

I cannot state how imperative It is to make a good first shot and I think of buffalo because that’s the most commonly hunted DG in Africa and the most likely scenario where a hunter is going to encounter problems.

Most hunters make a reasonably good first shot with a good bullet and the caliber is almost irrelevant, dead buffalo no problem. But then things sometimes happen, that first shot was “off” and now the buffalo becomes almost bulletproof it seems. Then unless the spine or brain is hit, even the big bore stopping calibers may not have a noticeable effect on that adrenaline fueled buffalo.

Also, a good PH will allow you to make the decision to ultimately shoot, if you’re not comfortable with the shot, don’t take it. I had one scenario, sticks got left behind, but no matter, had a good rest on a fallen tree but too many small branches, would have to thread the bullet through a 3-4 inch opening. This was the perfect dagga boy, but I passed too risky. I don’t like facing shots on Buffalo either. Often they are never perfectly straight facing you, always quartering a bit to the left or right.

Red Leg said:

Hendershot’s, though I am not sure why that is humorous.

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Thread 'Where have all the Swift A-Frames Gone?' https://www.africahunting.com/threads/where-have-all-the-swift-a-frames-gone.96566/

Azklmsr said:

I actually really appreciated Sundles video. As a DG newbie, it showed what can happen when even a very experienced shooter/hunter has a bad shot. He's bright enough to know that did not show him in great light, yet he still posted it. That video was in-fact what helped me decide to do my first (and only so far) buff hunt with a scoped 375 vs a double 600 NE. That and $100K lol.

That said, there are 2 kinds of hunters with significant experience. Those that have messed up a shot, and those that lie and say they never messed up a shot. I'm smack dab in the middle of the 1st. Likely why I don't shoot at Elk with small 6.5, or try to take 500 yd shots, or ...

To the original thread, all has been said enough. "Use Enough Gun", Robert Ruark

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Amazing how you could watch that video and come to a conclusion Sundles is in any way "bright." He publishes a video of himself wandering around alone in the bush supposedly tracking a buffalo. Now who in their right mind would do that even if it was legal ... and it wasn't legal if he's a nonresident. Maybe someone with a backup rifle was lurking in the background behind the cameraman, but why script the scene to make it appear Sundles is hunting alone? And then he finally finds his bull ... and films it standing on the other side of the fence. It did not appear to me that he even hit it with his first shot. And then the bull continues to feed! Why isn't it running off? Hmmm. Perhaps it's just taken another shot before the camera crew showed up ... sedative in the arse? Sundles was so unsteady he really had no business taking a shot. First round out of that cannon nearly put him on his butt! Not to worry. Even if if it had knocked him over, I don't think that buffalo knew what planet it was on. That video was hardly inspirational. Yeah, it demonstrated how things can go south on a buffalo hunt ... when going south was the plan. The whole thing was fake start to finish. Maybe when you've been hunting a bit longer you will grasp how phony this guy really is.

Well, Sundle is bright enough to have built Buffalo Bore Ammunition. He’s also bright enough to own the Ranch his video was shot on. I’ll bet few can top that.

Have you met Mr Sundle? My impression is he’s a descent, perfectly imperfect fellow. Seems willing to show both successes and failures.

While my experience may be modest compared to some, I’m willing to look for the lesson in others experience and I stand by my take away.

I have to agree the video is not very impressive. Definitely not the best advertisement for your ammunition. If it takes six shots from a 600 NE to kill a buffalo perhaps a different bullet might work better.

He does own the property where he was hunting.

Mark458 said:

I have to agree the video is not very impressive. Definitely not the best advertisement for your ammunition. If it takes six shots from a 600 NE to kill a buffalo perhaps a different bullet might work better.

He does own the property where he was hunting.

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Exactly to my point. Super big bore with poorly placed shots did very poorly. This was a very good example of big, powerful bullet in the wrong place does not perform.

Azklmsr said:

Exactly to my point. Super big bore with poorly placed shots did very poorly. This was a very good example of big, powerful bullet in the wrong place does not perform.

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I never heard him say what kind of bullet he was using. I'm guessing they were solids judging by the reaction of the buffalo, or lack of reaction. It's the Mark Sullivan affect where if you shoot them with solids you can shoot them a lot more times.

Agreed. Don’t know the bullet type. A .6
Diameter bullet will act a lot like a 375 bullet that expands some though. Guessing that if his first shot had hit where it should have, the result would have been different. Every animal is different of course.

Comes back to the same conclusion. Big and powerful is only helpful in the right place.

Azklmsr said:

Agreed. Don’t know the bullet type. A .6
Diameter bullet will act a lot like a 375 bullet that expands some though. Guessing that if his first shot had hit where it should have, the result would have been different. Every animal is different of course.

Comes back to the same conclusion. Big and powerful is only helpful in the right place.

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A shot in the right place and you only get to film one shot. Six shots outside of the vitals makes for more exciting videos according to some people. I am not one of those people.

skydiver386 said:

With some people you have to use small words. If that doesn't work, use lot's of pictures.

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I usually find crayons and big pieces of paper help.
Although with some they will still not understand, but insist on telling you how good they are, whilst trying to resist the urge to eat he crayons and often failing
Gumpy

Sorry, but after reading these " .375H&H is plenty for cape buffalo, etc.. " I do not neccesarily agree and absolutely not when it comes to elephant hunting. All is based on that your PH will get you out of trouble if an attack occurs, well PH´s are only human and may error (as the client may..).

The .375H&H was never ment to be a DG calibre when H&H launched it in 1912. Their .500/465 and the .500/450 was.. Rightly, the .375 have marvelous penetration when the right bullets are used, long flat tipped brass bullets like the Hippo from SA work well..I used them at night for elephant. But personally I would never use a .375H&H again at the very close range as ele hunting is normally done..when a charge may occur. I feel that the margins are to small..I want a large bore ( .470, .500 or more) to stop a charge.

Picture this..lets say you suddenly come onto a buffalo bull at very close range in thick bush, say 10 - 20m and he attacks unprovoked..it happens both with bulls and cows. You now have 2-3 seconds to floor him...maybe your PH is caught off guard, what then..you have a .375 scoped bolt rifle in your hands..? I have been in such situations a couple of times..no attack occured but I was glad I had a .470 double rifle in my hands.

This has nothing with Elmer Keithish big bore argumentation...its plain downright life insurance in my book.

Sheesh, some of this is hard, heavy reading.

I will limit my contribution by saying that I have yet to see anyone kill a buffalo with a cartridge.
Usually, the cartridge remains in the rifle and, as has been touched on elsewhere,
the animal is killed by the bullet.

Most would do well to concentrate on the bullet as opposed to the cartridge.
Historically, and specifically, here in Australia, buffalo have been killed by ridiculously small "cartridges" that most of us would never dream of undertaking an expensive big game hunt with.
It "can" be done, I've seen it done, but should it be done ?

Hunt with what you have confidence in, and that is legal for the area.

Remember that your favorite cartridge remains in the chamber and it's the bullet that does the damage.

Don't get your panties in a knot because someone else prefers something bigger/smaller.
Their exposure and experience is different to yours.

The overwhelming consideration should be towards achieving a quick, painless and humane kill.
As I once said to a hunter, "you are here to kill them, not torture them".

A little levity for the conversation of who carries what.

Here is something my ph Nigel sent me

michael458 said:

I have absolutely zero use for a POS 375 anything, useless rat caliber when it comes to serious work. Good Girly cartridge for the ladies that can't handle more recoil. And that includes little Girly Men too..........In fact, I won't even allow one to be around me, they make me sickly and want to PUKE at the mention and sight of 375. I utterly despise that caliber.

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Red Leg said:

And neither will a forty something or a 500. In fact when combined with something like a double and iron sights it can contribute to the problem.

Two of my "favorite videos" of the awesome power of an initial "big bore" shot put in the wrong place. The first is a 600 nitro no less. Note the open sights. I wonder if the "rifleman" feels particularly manly.

Tim Sundles and 600 NITRO on Cape Buffalo at Buffalo Bore Game Preserve Gannohoek South Africa

Tim Sundles owner and ballistics expert (extensive end user of his products...no board of directors to answer to!) shooting 900 gr. shock hammer softs and CEB solids and it still took 5 fatal shots to

rumble.com

The second is a shooting exhibition with a .470 double (looks like a sideplated Searcy not that it matters). A bad first shot leads to - well a long slide to the finish. And what the heck - as the client suggests, if identification is a problem, he can always shoot another.

Obviously, the same can happen with a .375 bullet in the wrong place. I would simply make two observations that I am confident would withstand diligent research. The first is a misplaced shot with a forty something or larger is no more lethal than a .375 in the same place. The second is that iron sights take dedicated effort to master, and the likelihood of a first bullet being slightly off target with irons is far greater than with an accurate scoped rifle regardless of caliber. As my friend and PH in Mozambique has said, nothing really scares him except a client on his first buffalo or elephant hunt with his brand new double.

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And then you have a “POS CZ .375 H&H” stopping a charge. This clip was posted by Ernst, showing one of his PHs, Dean, stopping a charge at perhaps 5 yards.

And someone here also sent me this link -

“Knockdown Power” Is the Biggest Myth in Big Game Hunting​

Fire away...

K-man said:

I'm squarely in the "accurate first shot with appropriate caliber" camp. My personal experience is four cape buffalo, lion, croc, one charging cow elephant with single shots from a .375h&h. I have and use occasionally a .416 ruger that has also taken bull elephant and hippo one shot each. Put one well constructed bullet in the right place and done. There is a good reason the .375 is dangerous game caliber.

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Both my Elephant and Buffalo were two shot kills. Seconds only for insurance and recovery. Placement kills better than shoot and pray……

A lot of attitudes in this thread....

Azklmsr said:

Exactly to my point. Super big bore with poorly placed shots did very poorly. This was a very good example of big, powerful bullet in the wrong place does not perform.

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I don’t know. I don’t have any experience with the large wild game.
But I have seen little white tails take 2 200gr 338 silvertips one in the shoulder and one right behind it and make it over 300yds

I saw a doe on a cull hunt take a 338 rum it was not a good hit it zipper her she made it 75 yds pullling lungs guts behind her.

Saw 2 young bucks ( dog hunting) that were shot to pieces by 3 men using 12 and 20 ga buckshot 00 and # 3 buck. One reason I am not a big buckshot person

Some times some animals are hard to kill