Vetting Outfitters And Shady Practices

It’s clear the client was very disappointed, and to the point of this post, would have been better off with better research, more scrutiny, and clearer conversations or priorities etc. It’s also regrettable that’s even the case with a >$100k hunt; it’s easy to think you don’t need to ask as many questions at the Mercedes dealership or commissioning a Westley Richards. I’ve learned the hard way, it’s never the case with hunts, including Tanzania.

It’s common, especially with these multi-generational Tanzania outfitters, to offer a client a follow up hunt at a highly discounted rate. There is usually some type of conversation about how the outfitter can make things right, or keep them satisfied and in their good graces (that’s one thing that’s not been highlighted in the four pages so far; it could have included changing areas mid-hunt, buying quota on another outfitters area, which does happen). Regardless if it was a good area or bad, pride male or not, a scar or a stain, I’m assuming none of that was done, or the whole thing would not have ended up here.

I had a SA outfitter pass on a picture of a buff bull I hunted with Tsala to his client. How do I know that? Well, the client called me to as a reference. I told him I never heard of that outfitter and asked if he would forward me the picture that he received. Sure shit, my buff. This outfitter must have got my number off of my outfitters brochure and passed it on.
Freaking ridiculous!

kpoynter said:

I’ve been traveling for two days… I didn’t make popcorn for the show

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Didn’t you get a front row seat to the show in person? What did your PH say when he saw the lion?

Nothing was ever going to be posted about this until Morgan took his “holier than thou” act to Instagram and began blocking people who questioned him. The first person blocked was the cameraman that was on the hunt. Bill has all of the facts and is presenting them correctly. I’m choosing not to comment, even though I was the hunter. It’s hard to deny the video evidence. It’s not exactly a he said she said type of situation.

chslongrange8 said:

Let's not start quoting things from pissed off clients. I can play the same game.

I only commented to raise concern over the question of his ethics, which I think I have made clear. Should the decision be questioned? Sure. Should any of us attack another man's character, particularly on a forum, when they don't know the man, or have the full story? Nope.

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So you’re aware, I was informed of the leopard issues during the hunt, well prior to the situation with the lion and the client becoming “pissed off”. At that point the client was upbeat and positive hoping they’d get the leopard the next sit. I believe I even got a video of the cat feeding (hard to remember which night was which since they had him feeding several nights) despite a couple issues.

Reiterating the intention of my post was to present situations that I felt were questionable. I have and have stated numerous times the info I have (on the lion hunt) is one sided. With the information I have received I felt numerous things done were questionable in my eyes and in this situation bordering on shady. Shady doesn’t have to be unethical, and might be the wrong word. What I’ve gathered is Morgan might be the most conservation minded and idealistic PH’s out there. For 99.9% of Hunters I think he’d be the wrong PH (especially on a lion hunt), but I think the campfire conversations with him in camp would be profoundly eye opening and educational.

If even a portion of what the hunter has told me is true (I have zero reason to believe it isn’t) then I don’t think Morgan and his clients expectations were inline with one another or even communicated clearly. I feel that as a PH (if those are your views above what the law states) it is your duty to ensure your client understand and anything less is a little deceptive (I’m struggling to find the right word because I truly don’t think what Morgan did was was done with malice). The hunter and other member of his hunting party can comment if they wish

The entire post was meant to provoke some possible hard conversations and questions I think we as hunters need to have both with ourself and our PH’s

Cme1983 said:

Didn’t you get a front row seat to the show in person? What did your PH say when he saw the lion?

Nothing was ever going to be posted about this until Morgan took his “holier than thou” act to Instagram and began blocking people who questioned him. The first person blocked was the cameraman that was on the hunt. Bill has all of the facts and is presenting them correctly. I’m choosing not to comment, even though I was the hunter. It’s hard to deny the video evidence. It’s not exactly a he said she said type of situation.

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I was there….so everyone knows…
It was, and is, a very unfortunate situation all around.
When we all saw the pictures and the video we were very excited. The Lion was an obvious shooter…certainly based on age, maturity, and he was clearly alone.
The baits and this bait in particular was hung well away from areas where any known Lion pride was hanging out.
They had seen a Pride day 1 I believe and we saw a pride a day or two before this…. Well away from this area.
To be clear, no one thinks anyone was being unethical…. All the time in business and dealing with people I explain that someone’s best quality or strength can also be a similar weakness.
Morgan is an extremely positive and optimistic person. He thought things would turn positive…
He has a strong idealistic personality…he felt he was making the right decision…
Well…I think he was being “over ethical” and set a bar too high as a result
1) I think it was a mistake to not shoot this Lion and there was certainly not any evidence to support him being a pride male at that moment (a bit of staining on the haunches is certainly not enough)
2) If that was even the opinion, which it was, the call should have been to keep him on bait and wait a day and see if females come the next day…,if not…bang….
3) we have seen the opinions now of MANY top PHs. The most respected names in the business guys.. and I mean basically every top PH you would perhaps think of to mention. They Unanimously have said this was a no brainer….shoot that Lion right then and there…Unanimously… and this was being filmed for a Tracks Across Africa episode
4) I saw the Instagram post after the fact this week. Or, I should say, screenshots. That Lion was absolutely NOT the same Lion IMO. It didn’t look the same even on the surface (the mane color was not the same) but I think the large scar on the leg is a smoking gun that it for sure is not.

Morgan strongly believed and believes he made a “righteous” decision. I don’t think the evidence supports that. I do think that an outfitter in this situation actually owes the benefit of the doubt to the client….this scenario wasn’t discussed and lead to this whole mess.
Or…. If this was the practice..,it should have been explained in the sales process and all the conversations. It was not. This led to a complete misalignment of expectations. It was never presented as a 30% opportunity area…that’s for sure or that a Lion had t been taken in several years. That leads to huge issues when this kind of money is on the line.
I would ask what on earth is the downside of shooting a lone mature male like this? None IMO. Even if he MAYBE had cubs someplace somewhere with some lioness…
She would have been bred by a new male in about two days basically
Absolute zero long term or mid term impact on a Lion Population

It’s my opinion and I have a pretty reasonable amount of experience (20+ years) and am pretty well read on the subject. But… I’d say that the video and photos have been reviewed by experts with hundreds of years of combined experience. 100% think this was a shooter and an unfortunate fuck up.
It actually is a sad example of the outside pressure of “perception” and worrying about NGOs and Antis causing us to create an artificial bullshit standard…why? So they don’t create another Cecil incident on us basically. We can pretend otherwise but this would have never happened in the past

I obviously had a great hunt…and I wanted to post my report as such and I did.

A bit of personal guidance I have always tried to follow is to offer observations - positive or negative - based solely upon my personal experiences. The moment we enter the world of what we heard, what we were told, or what we inferred, we are on very treacherous ground indeed. I will admit to have violated that admonition more than once - even on this site - and always to my regret.

This somewhat reminds me of a conversation I had when vetting sheep outfitters. I was talking about the hunt and expectations, and I said any legal ram is a trophy in my eyes. The outfitter replied yeah any 8 year old sheep is truly a trophy. I then asked I thought full curl was legal, and he said it is but they only shoot sheep 8 years old or older. So I asked if it was the last day, and there was a full curl ram but they thought it was 7 years old could I shoot it, he said no and that was just the risk you take because that is how they manage their sheep population. They had a tremendous success ratio, and lots of good recommendations but I know myself, it was not a risk I was willing to take. I appreciate their honesty and willingness to manage their herd but it wasn't for me.

I am reading this thread (which should be made sticky, for safari 101 advice), for second time, with my morning coffee.

Mtn_infantry, you certainly know how to make politically non correct thread. Well done. No ass kissing! Keep up the good job!

375Fox, hahaha, how you said?

Who wouldnt wish for legal age lion, out of pride, on a bait in front of rifle sights? Well, that is my wishful dream certainly!
(and I will add: being that pac or non exportable lion, I dont mind that as well- because for me hunt and experience comes first, photo is welcome, and trophy delivered home is not my priority)

I am following what has been written and trying to see on internet what I can see on the cases in subject, and how would I notice these details. So, my online training is in progress!

What I found on first case that was mentioned:
JSB is listed on CBEO list. On CB web site.

But what is more interesting, as per CB info they operate in Namibia and Angola.
Not related to this thread, but Angola sounds interesting. There was info a year or so ago that Angola opened up some start up projects on hunting. Namibian outfitter moving in, may indicate Angola is increasing operations? But if I were to look for hunt in Angola, most probably I would look for Angolan outfitter. Outsourcing outfitter from other country gives me the taste of possible price increase

I will put YT link below.

Now about CBEO system. Does that mean something to me, a modest hunter, with modest means to finance safari? No, nothing.
First I hunted with non endorsed outfitters by CB, and had great experiences. All succesful (6 safaris, two continents)
So, CBEO list is nice, but not for me, especially if the "CBEO brand" increases the price. It could make opposite effect.

Does the CBEO list guarantees good hunt for me?
Wel, I think not necessarily.
When I go on a hunt, I am focused on a hunt. An my primary objective is to successfully get animal I hunt.
That is what makes hunt good or not in my eyes.

Will I get red carpet spread out entering the camp down to my chalet, cold champagne served with fresh strawberries in the morning, and refreshing jacuzzi in camp during mid day break, I dont care.

I can hunt on warm water bottles, and sleep in sleeping bags all the days.
And as long as I get the animal I am happy.

But what is good for me, does not need to be good for someone else.

Same logic is with CBEO list.
What is good for CB does not need to be good for me.

What works for me?
Acceptable price and recommendation from a hunter who knows me, and my preferences.

This seems to have turned into a thread only about the lion hunt. And it is a very interesting topic.

As a generalization: I would say that any hunt where an outfitter has put their own standards much higher than legal standards, a hunter should be made aware before booking the hunt.

If I booked a hunt for a mature representation of a species, the law agreed that was legal, and then the outfitter waited and told me at the moment of the shot that I wasn't allowed to shoot a mature legal animal because his standards are much higher, I would consider that fraud at the very least, possibly theft.

As OP has said, I wouldn't have thought I would have had to clarify that before a hunt either. I've thought of a lot of vetting questions. I never thought, "Are you sure you will let me shoot a mature legal animal I am paying to hunt when the time comes?", would be one of them.

People keep talking about seeing a video if this hunt or this lion. Is that posted somewhere? I don't see it anywhere in this thread.

Something ain’t adding up on this lion hunting thread…more questions than answers now. Hmmm!

Sabre said:

People keep talking about seeing a video if this hunt or this lion. Is that posted somewhere? I don't see it anywhere in this thread.

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Someone would have to post to say YouTube and then post a link.
But… they don’t want to post ( for now certainly) as it was filmed for a TV show and it would be quite viral honestly
But…there is a pic clipped from it in the thread. Simply imagine an absolute stud of a Lion showing up after two weeks of hard hunting.
A 100000% Legal Lion…. Mature male. Absolutely gorgeous… Camera rolling filming him walking in for a great episode of Tracks across Africa. (And of course imagine that you paid well over $100,000+++ to be in a prime Tanzania area for the privilege to do so)
He is 100% by himself and in an area you baited very specifically away from the known pride(s)
And in the space of ten seconds of looking through the binoculars some mild brown (piss) stains are seen on the inside of the legs… No…can’t shoot…he’s a pride male… with zero evidence to support other than this and in contradiction to all other actual known facts.
Well… it’s obviously HIGHLY controversial and has gone public now.
I was there and I haven’t said a word publicly (and I know the PH strongly believes he made the right ethical choice…he is sincere in his beliefs and a great guy)
The instagram post this week reignited the whole thing when he (the PH) posted a picture of a beautiful Male Lion with a female and said basically…see… I made the right choice under tremendous pressure.
Problem is…the post made it worse. Because to anyone who has seen the two Lions (and it’s a lot of people) …it sure as shit looks to be a different Lion. Like 99.99% chance it’s a different Lion unless in the last 60 days… the same Lion got a huge wound on his back right leg that completely healed over…and he got a coloring job at the hair dresser on his beautiful mane lol because it seems to be two shades darker Brown too.

Sadly…what this REALLY is… it’s a horrible example of the pressure our PHs are now under for Lion hunts..or to have a 100 pound elephant hit the internet that crossed out of a park (which they all do)
Why is a PH under so much pressure to let a Lion like this walk in the first place? That’s the real problem.
It’s fear of pressure from NGOs and Antis… period. Pressure on who? The governments and the industry as a whole. They are trying (they think) to “protect us” (us meaning them and us as hunters) or “protect us from ourselves” in this case. There is no counter argument to this that makes any sense. It’s fear.
Fuck that… then don’t sell the hunts or…you’d better damn sure explain this whole viewpoint when you do because it’s way beyond the risk tolerance of any sane hunter paying $150k when this situation arises.

kpoynter said:

Someone would have to post to say YouTube and then post a link.
But… they don’t want to post ( for now certainly) as it was filmed for a TV show and it would be quite viral honestly
But…there is a pic clipped from it in the thread. Simply imagine an absolute stud of a Lion showing up after two weeks of hard hunting.
A 100000% Legal Lion…. Mature male. Absolutely gorgeous… Camera rolling filming him walking in for a great episode of Tracks across Africa. (And of course imagine that you paid well over $100,000+++ to be in a prime Tanzania area for the privilege to do so)
He is 100% by himself and in an area you baited very specifically away from the known pride(s)
And in the space of ten seconds of looking through the binoculars some mild brown (piss) stains are seen on the inside of the legs… No…can’t shoot…he’s a pride male… with zero evidence to support other than this and in contradiction to all other actual known facts.
Well… it’s obviously HIGHLY controversial and has gone public now.
I was there and I haven’t said a word publicly (and I know the PH strongly believes he made the right ethical choice…he is sincere in his beliefs and a great guy)
The instagram post this week reignited the whole thing when he (the PH) posted a picture of a beautiful Male Lion with a female and said basically…see… I made the right choice under tremendous pressure.
Problem is…the post made it worse. Because to anyone who has seen the two Lions (and it’s a lot of people) …it sure as shit looks to be a different Lion. Like 99.99% chance it’s a different Lion unless in the last 60 days… the same Lion got a huge wound on his back right leg that completely healed over…and he got a coloring job at the hair dresser on his beautiful mane lol because it seems to be two shades darker Brown too.

Sadly…what this REALLY is… it’s a horrible example of the pressure our PHs are now under for Lion hunts..or to have a 100 pound elephant hit the internet that crossed out of a park (which they all do)
Why is a PH under so much pressure to let a Lion like this walk in the first place? That’s the real problem.
It’s fear of pressure from NGOs and Antis… period. Pressure on who? The governments and the industry as a whole. They are trying (they think) to “protect us” (us meaning them and us as hunters) or “protect us from ourselves” in this case. There is no counter argument to this that makes any sense. It’s fear.
Fuck that… then don’t sell the hunts or…you’d better damn sure explain this whole viewpoint when you do because it’s way beyond the risk tolerance of any sane hunter paying $150k when this situation arises.

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Ah, thanks. The way people kept referencing seeing the video I thought it was already posted to YouTube or Instagram or something. Thanks.

Also, after I posted I went and read your hunt report, it was a fun read. Thanks for posting!

kpoynter said:

Fuck that… then don’t sell the hunts

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Amen!!!

I will once again say the point of my post was not to tarnish the name or image of Morgan or Robin Hurt Safaris. I respect Morgan and his views on conservation and the role hunting plays within it. The point of my post was to use different examples that I’d recently seen which sent a red flag up for me and how/why I’d do something differently in the vetting process.

@LivingTheDream put it perfectly with his sheep hunt reference. Last Day, Full Curl, Completely legal ram just not 8 years old (outfitter imposed) is standing there. What happens … you’re going home empty handed. He heard the outfitters reply, he reacted to the response and followed up with an additional question to ensure he understood.

Now let’s apply that to example #2 a Tanzania Lion Hunt. What I’ve come to see the differences are (as I understand them), some in the pre-hunt, and some during/post hunt
• It’s a PH/Guide imposed standard not outfitter imposed (nothing wrong with this)
• Was the hunter made aware this is my (PH’s) standard?
• Did the PH ensure the hunter fully and completely understood his standard and what the consequences were?
• Did the PH ensure the hunter fully and completely understood the difference in his standards compared to other PH’s standards within the same outfit?
• Did the PH ensure show’s producer’s and camera crew understand the standard?
• Did the PH completely layout the criteria of what a shoot was/wasn’t since it exceeded the legal requirements?
• Did the Outfitter ensure the hunters knew the differences?
• Did the hunter know “pride male” could and would be applied to a lone male, in an area he was previously told a lone male would be a nomad?
• Was the hunter given/shown enough evidence to support the PH’s decision which would eliminate any shadow of a doubt?

I HAVE ZERO issue with the self imposed restriction. I even respect and admire Morgan for it. My flags stem from what’s above, and what triggered me to message the hunter and ask if I could use this as an example. Which was the prevention of and removal of differing opinions.

I sincerely believe this hunt might be the ultimate example of PH/Client mismatch and misunderstanding. My questions as someone considering a wild lion hunt one day, would now center around this and include all sorts of questions. This situation might even make me insist on something written into the contract listing every possible and conceivable reason a legal lone male isn’t shootable and that’s coming from someone who’s done 3 elephant and 2 leopard hunts without a hunt contract.

I’ll close with, I know the hunter, I know his side. If this male or any male walked into the bait with lionesses and cubs or even a single lioness he 100% would’ve passed because he understands what happens if that male is shot. He’d have gone home empty handed without a second thought.

What’s raising concerns for me is everything between that scenario and the client booking. I stand by there are 3 side; his, hers (his in this instance, and the truth. Add in the prevention of one side from voicing theirs, showing their concerns and disagreement along with presenting evidence and reasons for their disagreement and I personally start seeing a giant red flag.

THAT is what triggered me to message the lion hunter asking to use this as an example. It wasn’t meant to turn this thread into a second hand hunt report as some might think. I’m more than happy to point out other examples of “shady” things that I know different people have experienced on hunts in Africa. I know several people who’ve replied to this thread have their own, and their own learning lessons.

Many over the years have encouraged me to get into the outfitting/guiding business. Yes, I know the ins and outs of hunting in the field ... by myself! But this is the kind of crap I know I could never put up with. It sounds like this outfitter had a pretty good track record. Then something doesn't quite go right (or maybe it did) and he gets dragged in the mud. I'm sure this is the reason most outfitters and guides are such accomplished ass-kissers. I guess it's the same with any service oriented entrepreneur. Working at the plant I only had to keep my boss happy and he was the same guy every day (except when I was a "spare" at the top of the labor pool). Guides/PHs have to figure out each new boss/client as well as figuring out how to get him his animal. That's a tall order. And I always knew it was not one I could fill. I want to focus on hunting not psychological evaluations.

I have had a hunt go sideways and it was definitely the PH's fault. He put me on the wrong animal and said shoot. I was almost certain it was the wrong animal (in a herd of animals I was fairly certain we should not have been hunting in the first place) and I asked twice if he was sure. Affirmative and I shot. Turned out to be a yearling cow. Oh well, shit happens. But then when it came time to pay up he tried to pin it all on me. Then the shit happened in a big way!

Paying six figures to hunt (or rather shoot something over bait) is always a roll of the dice. Or it should be if it's supposed to have at least a tiny resemblance to hunting. Personally, I simply cannot imagine buying a lottery ticket for a hundred grand. Makes more sense to buy thousands of tickets (although playing the lottery at all = nonsense). But be that as it may, the hunter/shooter needs to accept stuff can happen and he can lose. I also think the PH should acknowledge he can make mistakes and try to make it right ... IF he makes a mistake. But how do you fix a $100K mistake? I don't know. Give the client another hunt free? Could a safari operator afford to take a six figure hit on his anticipated income for the coming year? Yep, that's not the business for me! I'd prefer punching my time card at the plant.

I go with the same outfitters whenever I can. Of course, in the beginning, you have no idea of who is good or bad, but due diligence guides the decision. When I do want to hunt where my outfitters don't, I defer to sites like AH and go from there. I went on one hunt where the outfitter was recommended by Craig Boddington and was more than happy; not only with the accuracy of his description of the service and support from the outfitter ,but the quality/quantity of the game offered. Thanks to Mr. Boddington, I added another outfitter to my list of repeat outfitters.

I guess this is along the lines of a similar situation with a whitetail outfitter I hunt with in Illinois quite a bit. He has a 140 inch minimum or a 4.5 year-old buck or older, either one of the two. He is extremely upfront about that requirement before you ever hunt with him, and probably 90% of the people go home empty handed. But the whole thing is built around conservation and letting the bucks grow, and everyone who hunts with him knows exactly what they're getting into and is okay with it.

I know a guy who was in camp with me one year who hunted four years in a row without killing anything. He kept going back because he loved the hunting and the experience. And obviously, seeing a true 140 inch whitetail in the wild isn't exactly an everyday occurrence. They’re there, but they don't grow on trees.

The big difference is how transparent the outfitter is about it. With this guy, there is a pretty extensive orientation for first time hunters explaining exactly what a 140 inch buck looks like, how field judge, differences between an 8 point and a 10 point and so on. You know the rules before you ever step foot in the woods, so there really isn't any question of his criteria even though any buck is technically legal by the state.

This sucks … This looks like a bait and switch by Morgan. It looks so fishy to me and I am a newbie hunter. The only fair solution is for Morgan to refund the young man his money. That does not count for the wasted time, and suffering due to this situation. He at the least deserves a heart felt apology, instead of denials and excuses.

tinktink12 said:

This sucks … This looks like a bait and switch by Morgan. It looks so fishy to me and I am a newbie hunter. The only fair solution is for Morgan to refund the young man his money. That does not count for the wasted time, and suffering due to this situation. He at the least deserves a heart felt apology.

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At the risk of putting words in the hunters mouth I don't believe and I think he’d also say there wasn’t or wasnt any intention for bait and switch on Morgan or RHS part. From where I sit it sounds/looks like there was a misunderstanding of what constitutes a legal lion and a Pride Male.

I sincerely believe Morgan wants what’s best for the animals within the concessions he hunts and his standard is higher than others (including other members of RHS) and because of that if he can’t say with 100% certainty it’s not a Pride Male he believes in passing. Unfortunately I believe this means the goal post is likely fluid and moving.

Not sure if that makes sense