wildcat idea: a standard-action beltless .358/250gr/2800fps (e.g., parent case of 8x68S, 9.3x64, or .375 Ruger)

While I'm not unhappy with the 250gr/2550fps ballistics of my .35 Whelen A.I., it's maxed out the .30-06 parent case (.473" rim, .470" case body). I'm not a fiend for short actions, so my .358 wildcat can be a standard-length round.

The .358 Norma Mag (a necked up .338 Win Mag) is a fine round, but I just don't want a goram belt.

Experimentation on beltless cases exists with the .358x.375 Ruger, and also necking up the 8x68S, to recreate the .35 Newton. (The .358×404 Jeffery has a fatter case than necessary.)

someone named the 358X375 Ruger the 35 or 358 Yukon. Quality Cartridge has this cartridge in the listing.
Zhat apparently rents the reamer. Pacific tool probably has one on the shelf.
4D reamer rentals has a 35 Newton on their list of rentals.
www.______________.com/threads/35-newton-revisited.87248/page-2

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This .358, IMO, is what Jeff Cooper's .376 Steyr (9.5x60) should have been, and the .35 Newton had it right in 1915! That could have been Cooper's "Super Scout" caliber instead of the .350 Rem Mag.



What I like about this .35 Newton class is its 125-310gr bullet versatility for a truly North American "one rifle".
The .30 hasn't the SA and upper weight of >220gr, and neither the .338WM nor .375 Ruger has the pistol bullets option.

To have the .358/250gr compete with the .338WM in flatness it needs a bit more velocity than its .35 Whelen AI offering.

I completely realize the irrationality of all this hassle to recreate the .35 Newton or remove the .358 Norma Mag's belt.
But, that's how these things go sometimes....

I am perfectly happy with the 358 Norma or STA if I need more than the 35 Whelen. Still dont understand the belt issue it has been around a long time on many of the most popular cartridges. What is the problem with the belt - a real problem?

jruby said:

I am perfectly happy with the 358 Norma or STA if I need more than the 35 Whelen. Still dont understand the belt issue it has been around a long time on many of the most popular cartridges. What is the problem with the belt - a real problem?

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If the case headspace’s off the belt there can be large, up to 0.010” , variations which can cause issues if not dealt with
Gumpy

Is that why we have so many problems with the 375 and 300 H&H cartridges?

What about the old classic .350 Rigby...beltless case, will match .358 NM in a modern rifle.

Bertram make brass as do quality cartridge, CH4D make dies, Rigby now making rifles again which will help give it a little kick along.....beautiful design scaled down .416 Rigby case.

jruby said:

Is that why we have so many problems with the 375 and 300 H&H cartridges?

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The original loadings were made to be used once and discarded. Lazy case manufacturers and rifle chamber cutting wasn’t an issue. Now it is. And a lot of the older rifles seem to have been well made as opposed to modern mass production models
Gumpy

I have a 358 norma magnum built on a pre 64 model 70. To.make ammunition i run a 338 wm case into a 358 die and have been doing this for over 15 years without issue. Yes the shoulder mover forward but has not caused a problem. I have resized several hundred cases this way and have had no problems. There is no reason to no5 use a the belt for sizing. I dont buy it especially if your using good brass. You can even fire 300H&H cartridges in a 300 weatherby i have heard. Supposedly a lot of 300 weatherby brass in the mid to late 40's were made this way.

jruby said:

Still dont understand the belt issue it has been around a long time on many of the most popular cartridges. What is the problem with the belt - a real problem?

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Now, I never quite claimed any "problem" with belted cases. (My first African safari was with .416 Rem Mag, a very fine cartridge.) While belted cases have their minor issues yet serve very well for many, I simply prefer non-belted cases.

A summary from AI:

Belted cases solved a genuine early headspacing problem → the belt became a magnum trademark → stronger shoulders and better manufacturing made it unnecessary for most new bottleneck cartridges.

Belted magnums are not obsolete—the .300 Winchester Magnum, 7mm Remington Magnum, and .375 H&H remain extremely popular—but for new designs the belt usually adds complexity without adding useful performance.

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In short, from an engineering and aesthetic view, belted bottleneck cases ("complexity without adding useful performance") annoy me. There is no headspacing rationale for their belt, so the 7mm Rem Mag, 338 Win Mag, etc. needn't have been derived from the .300 H&H.

The .300H&H (a decade preceded by the superior .30 Newton) needs a belt. The .458 Win Mag needs a belt. The .358 Norma Mag does not, and I want its ballistics in a beltless case. As I wrote, I'm aware of the irrationality of insisting this when even the .358 Norma Mag is barely hanging on while the perfectly acceptable .35 Whelen A.I. exists and is easy to feed. I don't truly require a beltless case or the extra 200fps, but I would savor both.

As shown by my choice of .450 Dakota, I was willing to stock up on components in case of market scarcity (which has since occurred). Sure, a .458 Lott would have sufficed all along (and makes more sense for procurement and resale), but I never would have loved it.

The .35 Newton (mortally wounded by WWI and the Depression) deserves to be revived, not just for its 250gr/2800fps niche but out of respect for a very well engineered cartridge from 1915 (just 29 years after the advent of smokeless powder bottlenecked 8×50R Lebel). I grew up with a genuine .256 Newton (a sort of .270 of its day), hence my personal fondness for Newton's rifles.

While it's true that the perfect is the enemy of the good enough, the converse is also valid:
The good enough is the enemy of the perfect. For over a century people have been conditioned to settle, and that's why ringing examples of virtual perfection (i.e., there is nothing left to remove) are not demanded by the masses. Peak refinement thrills me, but there's so little of it commonly available, hence my sporadic lobbying for it. Thanks for your understanding and forebearance.

pc3 said:

What about the old classic .350 Rigby...beltless case, will match .358 NM in a modern rifle.

Bertram make brass as do quality cartridge, CH4D make dies, Rigby now making rifles again which will help give it a little kick along.....beautiful design scaled down .416 Rigby case.

Click to expand...

Thanks for this reminder; there's a lot to be said for the .350 Rigby. Hmmmm.

BTP-KennethWRoyce said:

Now, I never quite claimed any "problem" with belted cases. (My first African safari was with .416 Rem Mag, a very fine cartridge.) While belted cases have their minor issues yet serve very well for many, I simply prefer non-belted cases.

A summary from AI:


In short, from an engineering and aesthetic view, belted bottleneck cases ("complexity without adding useful performance") annoy me. There is no headspacing rationale for their belt, so the 7mm Rem Mag, 338 Win Mag, etc. needn't have been derived from the .300 H&H.

The .300H&H (a decade preceded by the superior .30 Newton) needs a belt. The .458 Win Mag needs a belt. The .358 Norma Mag does not, and I want its ballistics in a beltless case. As I wrote, I'm aware of the irrationality of insisting this when even the .358 Norma Mag is barely hanging on while the perfectly acceptable .35 Whelen A.I. exists and is easy to feed. I don't truly require a beltless case or the extra 200fps, but I would savor both.

As shown by my choice of .450 Dakota, I was willing to stock up on components in case of market scarcity (which has since occurred). Sure, a .458 Lott would have sufficed all along (and makes more sense for procurement and resale), but I never would have loved it.

The .35 Newton (mortally wounded by WWI and the Depression) deserves to be revived, not just for its 250gr/2800fps niche but out of respect for a very well engineered cartridge from 1915 (just 29 years after the advent of smokeless powder bottlenecked 8×50R Lebel). I grew up with a genuine .256 Newton (a sort of .270 of its day), hence my personal fondness for Newton's rifles.

While it's true that the perfect is the enemy of the good enough, the converse is also valid:
The good enough is the enemy of the perfect. For over a century people have been conditioned to settle, and that's why ringing examples of virtual perfection (i.e., there is nothing left to remove) are not demanded by the masses. Peak refinement thrills me, but there's so little of it commonly available, hence my sporadic lobbying for it. Thanks for your understanding and forebearance.


Thanks for this reminder; there's a lot to be said for the .350 Rigby. Hmmmm.

View attachment 795747

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Yep that's what I thought...a lot to be said for the round hence I've ordered a rifle in that calibre. I've now got brass and dies...off to the races

pc3 said:

Yep that's what I thought...a lot to be said for the round hence I've ordered a rifle in that calibre. I've now got brass and dies...off to the races

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Dandy! Are you getting this rifle?
£10,950 ≈ $14,516, and no doubt worth it.


The .350 Rigby is a great cartridge, though requiring a magnum-length action (not my criterion, alas).
I already have the magnum action I wanted, in the caliber I wanted.
Aiming for a standard-action .358 beltless.
Meanwhile, I'll remain chastely envious of your .350 Rigby! Please post photos when you get it!

I shot a .35 on the 8x68S once

It was interesting cartridge , and another one design had a IMP case also

BTP-KennethWRoyce said:

Dandy! Are you getting this rifle?
£10,950 ≈ $14,516, and no doubt worth it.
View attachment 795771View attachment 795772

The .350 Rigby is a great cartridge, though requiring a magnum-length action (not my criterion, alas).
I already have the magnum action I wanted, in the caliber I wanted.
Aiming for a standard-action .358 beltless.
Meanwhile, I'll remain chastely envious of your .350 Rigby! Please post photos when you get it!

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Yes I have ordered a lightweight Rigby .350.....I'll be a "kidney lighter" for the experience For me I think it will be worth it as I am trimming down the collection to accommodate a few nice rifles to go terminal with....or at least try to do that !

BTP-KennethWRoyce said:

(The .358×404 Jeffery has a fatter case than necessary.)

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While I know that the 404J parent case was rejected by the OP in the first post, based on the goals of the proposed wildcat & for the benefit of other readers who still might consider it as an option, I thought it was worth a mention that Nosler had SAAMI spec'd the 35 Nosler (.358) and the 36 Nosler (9.3mm) as potential future offerings of their current line.

But they only exists on paper so no commercial rifles or ammo have ever been produced. You can get reamers from 4D or Pacific Tools for them and upsize 33 Nosler brass if you want to build a modern non-belted semi-wildcat.

For maximizing the potential of the 358 in a standard action, I thought that these designs exhibited some of the "examples of virtual perfection" and "peak refinement" that the OP admires.

BTP-KennethWRoyce said:

Now, I never quite claimed any "problem" with belted cases. (My first African safari was with .416 Rem Mag, a very fine cartridge.) While belted cases have their minor issues yet serve very well for many, I simply prefer non-belted cases.

A summary from AI:


In short, from an engineering and aesthetic view, belted bottleneck cases ("complexity without adding useful performance") annoy me. There is no headspacing rationale for their belt, so the 7mm Rem Mag, 338 Win Mag, etc. needn't have been derived from the .300 H&H.

The .300H&H (a decade preceded by the superior .30 Newton) needs a belt. The .458 Win Mag needs a belt. The .358 Norma Mag does not, and I want its ballistics in a beltless case. As I wrote, I'm aware of the irrationality of insisting this when even the .358 Norma Mag is barely hanging on while the perfectly acceptable .35 Whelen A.I. exists and is easy to feed. I don't truly require a beltless case or the extra 200fps, but I would savor both.

As shown by my choice of .450 Dakota, I was willing to stock up on components in case of market scarcity (which has since occurred). Sure, a .458 Lott would have sufficed all along (and makes more sense for procurement and resale), but I never would have loved it.

The .35 Newton (mortally wounded by WWI and the Depression) deserves to be revived, not just for its 250gr/2800fps niche but out of respect for a very well engineered cartridge from 1915 (just 29 years after the advent of smokeless powder bottlenecked 8×50R Lebel). I grew up with a genuine .256 Newton (a sort of .270 of its day), hence my personal fondness for Newton's rifles.

While it's true that the perfect is the enemy of the good enough, the converse is also valid:
The good enough is the enemy of the perfect. For over a century people have been conditioned to settle, and that's why ringing examples of virtual perfection (i.e., there is nothing left to remove) are not demanded by the masses. Peak refinement thrills me, but there's so little of it commonly available, hence my sporadic lobbying for it. Thanks for your understanding and forebearance.


Thanks for this reminder; there's a lot to be said for the .350 Rigby. Hmmmm.

View attachment 795747

Click to expand...

That type of mindset to constantly look for a better way is something I relate to. It keeps us thinking and tinkering. If not for that issue I do not know what I would do with my life.

Since you are talking wildcats. The 338 Lapaua trimmed to standard length action, and necked down to your .358 up to .510 and go hunt.

BTP-KennethWRoyce said:

The .350 Rigby is a great cartridge, though requiring a magnum-length action (not my criterion, alas).
I already have the magnum action I wanted, in the caliber I wanted.

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It’s true that the original 350 Rigbys were built up on magnum actions but iirc, the OAL of the 350 is the same as the 375H&H so there are other action options out there.
The Magnum Mauser being the classic though.

If you could get over the belt - the reason behind your dislike is really obviated by being a hand loader - you could consider the 350 Griffin & Howe. Now thats a nice cartridge.

All that said, the 35 Newton is the one I’d go with as well.
I thought the dimensions were pretty close to the 375 Ruger and there is Ruger brass out there but surprisingly not all that common.

A few comments:
- as someone else said, solving problems and ticketing to create something new in ingrained in some of us. And why have the same cartridge as everyone else.
- If you wanted a 350 Rigby in a standard length action, you could buy a Interams Whitworth in 375 H&H, and have it rebarreled to 350 Rigby. They came with a small it out in the receiver to fit and a long internal magazine. I am going to be doing exactly this with two or three of these actions I have. Then, restock with a custom Safari style stock or a British stalker type.
- depending on the end goal…obsession being part of it…why not consider a 318 Westley Richard’s Nitro Express? It fits in a standard length action, shoots a 250 grain bullet with a higher sectional density since a it’s .330 instead of .358. Still in a 30-06 type case, just shorter, so it doesn’t recoil as much. It’s kind of a sweet spot and classic. CH Tool and Die is going to have a number of dues available within the next 4 weeks. There is brass available from Bertram (being imported regularly) and bullets from Hawk, Hammer and others. Just an idea.

Thanks for all the info and ideas. It's fun to kick this about and see what comes up.

AZDAVE said:

The 338 Lapaua trimmed to standard length action, and necked down to your .358 up to .510 and go hunt.

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Thanks for the idea, but its .588" fat rim would require some infeasible bolt face work, and I'm not seeking that much case capacity. It'd be a stomper, though!

Huvius said:

If you could get over the belt - the reason behind your dislike is really obviated by being a hand loader - you could consider the 350 Griffin & Howe. Now thats a nice cartridge.

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In a way, I wish I could get over the belt, then I'd just rebarrel to .358 Norma Mag which has the ballistics I want (as a "belted .35 Newton"). Speaking of belts, did you know that neither the 7mmRM and .300WM headspace on their belts? So, why even have it? That sort of thing is simply maddening.

odonata said:

While I know that the 404J parent case was rejected by the OP in the first post, based on the goals of the proposed wildcat & for the benefit of other readers who still might consider it as an option, I thought it was worth a mention that Nosler had SAAMI spec'd the 35 Nosler (.358) and the 36 Nosler (9.3mm) as potential future offerings of their current line.

For maximizing the potential of the 358 in a standard action, I thought that these designs exhibited some of the "examples of virtual perfection" and "peak refinement" that the OP admires.

Click to expand...

I hadn't heard of the .404J-based 35 Nosler, thanks for the info. I looked into it just now. The .404J/Canadian Mag/RUM case would certainly offer the most capacity for a 3.35" action, though requiring a rebated rim with standard action bolt faces. Dakota derived their cases (except for the .450) from the same parent, but slightly enlarged the rim to eliminate the rebated characteristic (with their own enlarged bolt face).

Speaking of Dakota, the .375 Dakota predated the .375 Ruger, and they are very similar. Ruger decided (rightly so IMO) a .532" rim/base to avoid a rebated rim. From AI:



Since I'm looking for peak refinement (though not necessarily peak MV), the .404J/RUM case is un petit beaucoup for my needs. I'd get at least 250gr/2800fps from a .358x.375 Ruger, and the brass is (kind of) available for what is essentially a.35 Newton redux.

HunterX said:

- If you wanted a 350 Rigby in a standard length action, you could buy a Interams Whitworth in 375 H&H, and have it rebarreled to 350 Rigby.
- depending on the end goal…obsession being part of it…why not consider a 318 Westley Richard’s Nitro Express? It fits in a standard length action, shoots a 250 grain bullet with a higher sectional density since a it’s .330 instead of .358. Still in a 30-06 type case, just shorter, so it doesn’t recoil as much. It’s kind of a sweet spot and classic. CH Tool and Die is going to have a number of dues available within the next 4 weeks. There is brass available from Bertram (being imported regularly) and bullets from Hawk, Hammer and others. Just an idea.

Click to expand...

The Interams Whitworth rebarreling is a sound idea for a .350 Rigby, but I just don't want another magnum-length action.

While the .318 Westley Richards is a very respectable cartridge (especially for its day), it'd be more practical to go .338-06, no? Also, I prefer the .358 for its bullet weight spread (though there's nothing really lacking in a fast .338). That versatility is what keeps me away from other great rounds (9.3mm and .375). The neglected .358 world is overdue some enhancement for a beltless 3.35" action case.

We've probably exhausted the subject, and thanks to all who contributed. The .35 Newton was just so right, and its demise a real shame. Meanwhile, brass formation isn't too onerous using 9.3x64 or 8x68S or .375 Ruger. I'll probably join such trailblazers, and maybe we'll spark enough interest for Ruger to come out with the .358 Ruger. The .338 Federal and .35 Whelen similarly caught fire. As Jeff Cooper often quipped, "It is furious to hope! "

BTP-KennethWRoyce said:

Thanks for all the info and ideas. It's fun to kick this about and see what comes up.


Thanks for the idea, but its .588" fat rim would require some infeasible bolt face work, and I'm not seeking that much case capacity. It'd be a stomper, though!


In a way, I wish I could get over the belt, then I'd just rebarrel to .358 Norma Mag which has the ballistics I want (as a "belted .35 Newton"). Speaking of belts, did you know that neither the 7mmRM and .300WM headspace on their belts? So, why even have it? That sort of thing is simply maddening.


I hadn't heard of the .404J-based 35 Nosler, thanks for the info. I looked into it just now. The .404J/Canadian Mag/RUM case would certainly offer the most capacity for a 3.35" action, though requiring a rebated rim with standard action bolt faces. Dakota derived their cases (except for the .450) from the same parent, but slightly enlarged the rim to eliminate the rebated characteristic (with their own enlarged bolt face).

Speaking of Dakota, the .375 Dakota predated the .375 Ruger, and they are very similar. Ruger decided (rightly so IMO) a .532" rim/base to avoid a rebated rim. From AI:

View attachment 795912

Since I'm looking for peak refinement (though not necessarily peak MV), the .404J/RUM case is un petit beaucoup for my needs. I'd get at least 250gr/2800fps from a .358x.375 Ruger, and the brass is (kind of) available for what is essentially a.35 Newton redux.


The Interams Whitworth rebarreling is a sound idea for a .350 Rigby, but I just don't want another magnum-length action.

While the .318 Westley Richards is a very respectable cartridge (especially for its day), it'd be more practical to go .338-06, no? Also, I prefer the .358 for its bullet weight spread (though there's nothing really lacking in a fast .338). That versatility is what keeps me away from other great rounds (9.3mm and .375). The neglected .358 world is overdue some enhancement for a beltless 3.35" action case.

We've probably exhausted the subject, and thanks to all who contributed. The .35 Newton was just so right, and its demise a real shame. Meanwhile, brass formation isn't too onerous using 9.3x64 or 8x68S or .375 Ruger. I'll probably join such trailblazers, and maybe we'll spark enough interest for Ruger to come out with the .358 Ruger. The .338 Federal and .35 Whelen similarly caught fire. As Jeff Cooper often quipped, "It is furious to hope! "

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The Whitworth action is a standard length action with a notch. It’s shorter and more svelt than a true Magnum action. It has the shorter bolt throw too.

BTP-KennethWRoyce said:

Since I'm looking for peak refinement (though not necessarily peak MV), the .404J/RUM case is un petit beaucoup for my needs. I'd get at least 250gr/2800fps from a .358x.375 Ruger, and the brass is (kind of) available for what is essentially a.35 Newton redux.

We've probably exhausted the subject, and thanks to all who contributed.

Click to expand...

While I mentioned the 35 & 36 Nosler & their 404J-based case in my previous comment as an option to consider, that was simply because I always feel that no discussion is complete until a topic has been beaten to death.


Even though I don't have a 375 Ruger because I already have a pair of 375 H&H's, I've always been an admirer of the design. It was used as the base case for the PRC cartridges & downsizing it to a 338 & 358 or upsizing it to a 458 always seemed like a promising avenue for wildcat experimentation.

I say "Go for it!".