111Kg Leopard killed in Zimbabwe?

Shakka said:

Both are more or less the same size, with the same equipment, but they can't be any more different in mindset

Click to expand...

Or in tenacity. I took a Mountain Lion, one frontal shot to the chest with a .45 Colt revolver, cat folded like a rug. I could never get drunk enough to ever think that attempting to do that with a leopard would be a good idea.

Betterinthebush said:

I had a phone meeting with Adrian just now on a different issue that we’re working on but got some more details for those interested.

1) both weighings were done supervised. One in a barrel that the barrel weight tare had been zeroed off of (at a taxidermist) and the other at a shipping company with digital scales (the video that most have seen).

2) the hunter was using a .416 Rigby and the cat took three shots (all good shots, with the last being muzzle to chest contact) Two dogs were mauled severely after the cat hit the ground with a bullet (the first) through the shoulder/lungs. One hound (one of my favorites, I have a picture of us together with my cat) had to be euthanized. The other had to have her front leg amputated. I will sorely miss Snoopy on my next hunt with Adrian in ‘28.

3) the leopards skull boxed at 17-1/2”
View attachment 792609

4) the cats belly was empty. Adrian cut the cats tracks a full 16km away (off) from the closest bait station. This cat was a mutant, one-of-a-kind, animal.
View attachment 792612
5) by everyone’s opinion that counts (PH’s) the cat was aged to be 7-1/2 yo. Maybe 8, but definitely 7.

Click to expand...

If you go to 3:20 of this video Ganyana gives his opinion of a very similar scenario regarding calibres.

Betterinthebush said:

Or in tenacity. I took a Mountain Lion, one frontal shot to the chest with a .45 Colt revolver, cat folded like a rug. I could never get drunk enough to ever think that attempting to do that with a leopard would be a good idea.

Click to expand...

Same here, and I know a guy who shot several with a 22 magnum

Betterinthebush said:

Or in tenacity. I took a Mountain Lion, one frontal shot to the chest with a .45 Colt revolver, cat folded like a rug. I could never get drunk enough to ever think that attempting to do that with a leopard would be a good idea.

Click to expand...

My mountain lion was taken with a quartering to shot (from below at maybe a 45 degree angle from 20ish yds away) using a 2.5” S&W Model 69 Combat Magnum in 44 Mag. Through the low shoulder taking out the heart as it traversed upwards. Like yours, it folded completely limp. It hit the ground and slid maybe 200yds down the hill on the snow stiff, never moving or making a sound.

My Leopard was shot with a 375H&H shooting 270gr Corelokts (a touch under 2700fps) from a brush blind 40ish yds away. Shot was a slight upwards angle through a cut-out hole in the tree to a branch that was 18-20 feet up. My quartering to shot knocked the Leopard clean off the branch, feet straight in the air. Again the round took out the top of the heart and essentially detached what was left. It fell/dropped similarly to the mountain lion, had 10-15sec of silence and then blood curdling snarls/growls with the sound of trashing + leaves and grass moving for maybe 10 seconds and complete silence again. Ultimately it went less than a yard from where it hit the ground but it turned 180 degrees, basically as if trying to go back up into the rocks and cliffs. Given the delayed reaction, zero visibility once it was off the branch due height of the grass early season & how thick it was + the delayed reaction, it made for a very tense and anxious wait for the truck and trackers. We gave it 45min before driving the truck into the thick brush which meant about 15 min after sunset with light fading fast and it being extra dark under the canopy. Having only killed one leopard I don’t have a lot of personal testing, but based on my talks with multiple PH’s (including one who’s hunted several hundreds of leopards) I think the hydrostatic shock aspect and the impact it has on a leopards central nervous system is often under estimated. My Leopard was dead before it left the branch, the movement and growls could’ve just been nerves and almost a death bellow, but we’ll never know due to visibility. Which brings me to my main point …

I’m a huge fan of the 375H&H having used it to complete the Tiny 10 and Big 5 BUT I think there are likely better choices for leopard hunting. If I were to hunt another leopard I likely wouldn’t use my 375 and on a bait hunt would opt for a little smaller but faster caliber to create more hydrostatic shock. Something leaving the muzzle at 2850 fps or more. I almost feel like the 375 on leopard performs similarly to how it does on the T10 because of their thin skin and slimmer frame body. I think the bigger calibers will also have this issue because they’re traveling slower and don’t generate the same hydrostatic shock as say a 300WM at 3000-3150 fps. For this reason I think bullet choice with a 375 is extremely important. I’m glad I went with the softest 375 bullet I could find pushing it faster than average. If there was a 250gr Corelokt that would’ve been my choice.

On a hound hunt where there are dogs and people in close proximity, I think the faster calibers become even more important. Additionally recoil needs to be accounted for because it impacts the speed of a follow-up shot. I don’t think I’d have used a 416. For me a 375 would be the biggest I’d go (think charge situation), and ideal as a client would be something like a 270, 275Rigby, 308, 3006, 300H&H, 300WM, or 338WM. My other ideal rifle would likely be a double in 375 Flange. My opinions but I think the cat specialists, especially the hound guys would agree.

I tend to agree with @Sabre & @Shakka that most predators weight is over exaggerated. I know a few hunters who have helped conduct the lion studies here in Colorado and the majority of the toms collared were well under 150#.
@Betterinthebush, Nuanetsi sound like an amazing place for leopard if 167# isn't really big! I would be piss happy with anything approaching that size. Congrats.

I’m right there with you on your estimation of the situation, @Mtn_Infantry

Like you I don’t consider myself an authority in the least. I can only offer to any conversation my opinion based on one experience. Granted, I, like yourself, did my job and took down my leopard with a .375H&H. While insurance shots were delivered into mine after the second shot he was truly dead after the first.

I’m not a “cat guy”. Yet. But I do want to keep hunting leopards. Definitely with hounds. And because I do want to be counted amongst the ranks of other cat guys I’m critical of myself, the weapons I choose and the decisions I make.

Having said all that, my first leopard will be the last leopard that I take with my .375 H&H. As much as I love it, for as good as I am with it, I expected more from its performance with the good shot I delivered. It simply is not fast enough to put on the kind of shocking CNS blow I want to see on an animal that goes to work everyday already equipped with the tools and attitude to be both lethal and dead at the same time while it’s blowing blood out of an entrance and exit wound.

I try to learn from my mistakes. I also try to learn from things I did right and am always on the lookout to improve.

Which, is why, on my next leopard hunt my .338 WM loaded with Federal/TBBC’s (200gr@2930 f/s) is going to get the nod. I just like the comfort of a big magnum (.338/>) going after DG. I don’t consider this a compromise. I consider this a prudent decision based off my personal experience and my PH’s experience and expertise.

@wetac hey, man, thank you. I’ve got pictures of four cats taken in Nuanetsi from last year and the year prior. All are larger than mine with one that went 85+kg. Until last week it was the largest (body size) leopard I ever saw.

Those cattle fed ranch cats get BIG!

That Leo blows my doors off!!!

Betterinthebush said:

One nice thing about hunting in Nuanetsi. The records on all cats taken is meticulous. My cat weighed 75.97kg (~167.5#’s) and had a 16-1/4” skull that was boxed for measuring. When I lifted him I thought I was going to rerupture a hernia repair I had surgery on a couple months before. And for a little guy I’m pretty strong. So I can understand how guys can overestimate weight.

For Nuanetsi a nice, big, mature tom, but by no means really big. Even for Nuanetsi. Here’s a pic of the jaws I had to take to submit for documentation.

View attachment 792449

Click to expand...

I’d say that’s a great cat, even from Nuanetsi! From the PHs that I know that have hunted the property and seen the records of cats taken there, they still average in the 140-150 lb range.

rcgarcia84 said:

I’d say that’s a great cat, even from Nuanetsi! From the PHs that I know that have hunted the property and seen the records of cats taken there, they still average in the 140-150 lb range.

Click to expand...

Even 140-150 is BIG and much heavier than the average leopard taken

You are meaning pounds, of course.
This one was 111x2.2pounds per kg.
244pounds.
YIKES

244 lbs is a monster. The thought of how much damage that thing could do is scary. Thank god they seem to be pretty standoffish unless you wound one.

HookMeUpII said:

244 lbs is a monster. The thought of how much damage that thing could do is scary. Thank god they seem to be pretty standoffish unless you wound one.

Click to expand...

I can't even imagine. Even an 80lb female can tear you to shreads

If you think about it, so can a housecat

We're (cat hunters in particular) are fortunate that lions, tigers, leopards and pumas are not pound for pound as tough/tenacious as house cats gone feral.

As a side note, this goes to show that there are still monster leopards out there, but they are smart and experienced because they lived past their mistakes, so they are hard to get on bait.

Also, in order to get that big, they have to live to full maturity and even beyond, which is at LEAST 6.5 years old! PH's have to stop setting up on what they know is a young male, which are usually the easiest to get on bait.

With the use of trail cameras nowadays, there are no excuses for killing young males anymore. Any PH who can't tell the difference between a 2-year-old and a 6-year-old shouldn't be hunting Leopard

Shakka said:

As a side note, this goes to show that there are still monster leopards out there, but they are smart and experienced because they lived past their mistakes, so they are hard to get on bait.

Also, in order to get that big, they have to live to full maturity and even beyond, which is at LEAST 6.5 years old! PH's have to stop setting up on what they know is a young male, which are usually the easiest to get on bait.

With the use of trail cameras nowadays, there are no excuses for killing young males anymore. Any PH who can't tell the difference between a 2-year-old and a 6-year-old shouldn't be hunting Leopard

Click to expand...

If you want PHs and hunters to hold out for 6+ year old cats the question is what day rate would you like to pay to offset unsuccessful hunts or how many extra days should be booked? I’m not knowledgeable on leopard aging or distribution of age class, but the principle is no different than buffalo hunting. Everyone wants an old 12+ bull, but reality is 8+ is a mature, nice trophy, and economical age to take them. I don’t see a difference with leopard hunting. Consensus seems to agree that’s about 4 years old. If you’d want an old cat it would take the right area and come at a higher price or a lot of days in a lesser area, either option will end up costing a lot more than a standard hunt unless a lot of luck is involved.

375Fox said:

If you want PHs and hunters to hold out for 6+ year old cats the question is what day rate would you like to pay to offset unsuccessful hunts or how many extra days should be booked? I’m not knowledgeable on leopard aging or distribution of age class, but the principle is no different than buffalo hunting. Everyone wants an old 12+ bull, but reality is 8+ is a mature, nice trophy, and economical age to take them. I don’t see a difference with leopard hunting. Consensus seems to agree that’s about 4 years old. If you’d want an old cat it would take the right area and come at a higher price or a lot of days in a lesser area, either option will end up costing a lot more than a standard hunt unless a lot of luck is involved.

Click to expand...

I know what you’re saying. It’s tough out there. And accurately aging leopard is impossible to assure 6+yo. I’d not want to be the PH charged with that responsibility.

But! A man that knows an area, has done his research and has spent time in the bush can definitely tell an immature 2.5yo from a 6yo. Ultimately, it’s in the hands of the hunter. As it always is.

375Fox said:

If you want PHs and hunters to hold out for 6+ year old cats the question is what day rate would you like to pay to offset unsuccessful hunts or how many extra days should be booked? I’m not knowledgeable on leopard aging or distribution of age class, but the principle is no different than buffalo hunting. Everyone wants an old 12+ bull, but reality is 8+ is a mature, nice trophy, and economical age to take them. I don’t see a difference with leopard hunting. Consensus seems to agree that’s about 4 years old. If you’d want an old cat it would take the right area and come at a higher price or a lot of days in a lesser area, either option will end up costing a lot more than a standard hunt unless a lot of luck is involved.

Click to expand...

I don't know the answer to that Fox, but I believe that the overall wellbeing of the species is more important than money and/or success

In an area that supports a healthy population of leopards, a four year old hasn't begun or at the very best, has just started mating. A big old territorial male patrols his boundaries vigorously and keeps those young males in check. We need to let those young males mature and spread their genes to the females in his area

There are 6.5 yo minimums on Lions, I believe pretty much everywhere, for the same reason

If you are a true hunter and conservationist, I don't know how you can argue against this

Betterinthebush said:

I know what you’re saying. It’s tough out there. And accurately aging leopard is impossible to assure 6+yo. I’d not want to be the PH charged with that responsibility.

But! A man that knows an area, has done his research and has spent time in the bush can definitely tell an immature 2.5yo from a 6yo. Ultimately, it’s in the hands of the hunter. As it always is.

Click to expand...

For sure. I just think setting an expectation of 6+ cats is unrealistic on a lot of 14 day hunts in standard areas. Unfortunately Africa is getting small. The areas have to pay for themselves. It’s either seriously increased pricing or harvesting animals at an economical age where most hunters are very happy.

Shakka said:

I don't know the answer to that Fox, but I believe that the overall wellbeing of the species is more important than money and/or success

In an area that supports a healthy population of leopards, a four year old hasn't begun or at the very best, has just started mating. A big old territorial male patrols his boundaries vigorously and keeps those young males in check. We need to let those young males mature and spread their genes to the females in his area

There are 6.5 yo minimums on Lions, I believe pretty much everywhere, for the same reason

If you are a true hunter and conservationist, I don't know how you can argue against this

Click to expand...

Not sure where those numbers come from but 2 year old male leopards can breed. Not saying going for a 6.5 year old cat isn’t a great goal, but it’s not a realistic expectation on every hunt if you want to be successful. If quota isn’t mostly utilized the areas don’t pay for themselves.