6.5 Creedmore Magnum using Federal +Peak Technology

JG26Irish_2

JG26Irish_2

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I am not a fan of the 6.5CM but nobody can deny the precision that can be had from the little cartridge. Recently, I was reviewing the new Federal +Peak technology applied to the 6.5CM cartridge and was well and truly impressed. This +Peak metallurgy enables the cartridge to run higher pressures from 65,000psi max for a conventional brass case to 80,000psi with the +Peak case. This is a serious boost to the handy little cartridge making it in effect a magnum version capable of about 300fps more velocity or shooting much heavier bullets at similar or more velocity than previously possible.

A review of the new rounds shows that it makes the 6.5CM able to out preform the 6.5PRC with the same bullets. Depending on the source they claim a 155g Federal Fusion will have muzzle velocity numbers of 2750 to upwards of 2900fps. To put this in perspective, my 7mm/08 shooting a 140g Fusion is only running 2724fps. This from a 22" bbl. Clearly, if the +Peak case can do what is claimed, this enables the Creedmore to punch well above its weight class.

Have any of you guys had the chance to play with this new cartridge technology? Where would you like to see Federal apply it next? Me? I love short, light, handy little rifles that pack a punch. The 338rcm is one that impresses me as is the 300wsm. What if Federal could apply this process to say the 308? If we could bump the 180g Fusion running 2620fps in my short bbl 308 up by 300fps? That would be 2920fps, that is getting close to 300wm type performance from the humble little 308? All is a short action that is stiff and tight. Fit a brake to tame the expected recoil addition and you could have a really nice little hunting rifle. What do you think?

What are the downsides? Slightly more recoil? Shorter bbl life? More stress on the rifle action? Just to name a few.

Impala.jpg
 
It is very interesting. I like to hunt suppressed so the shorter barrel lengths are of interest

I plan to pick up some of the plus peak cases when they’re available. Apparently they may need their own reloading kit, sold by lee, which is a bother

I’d be interested to see what they can do with a 308 or 30-06 or even 300wsm. It makes some sense that they’d pick a cartridge like 300wsm or one of the Rcm’s as those have only been factory chambered in new rifles whereas they may be concerned someone will stick a 30-06 plus peak in a garand and have trouble

We’ll see
 
I have not been able to try it out yet. However, I'm friends with two gun writers and they were both very impressed with the cartridge upgrade.

They said they couldn't detect any increased recoil over standard 6.5CM loads. And that makes sense to me since the volume of powder isn't increased, the recoil shouldn't increase. Same bullets used in standard and +Peak loads.

Accuracy was good and actually better with he terminal accent bullet out of the +Peak over the standard load.

Federal to old them no increased barrel wear.

While is suspect that we will/may see this +Peak in 308, I don't think we will ever see it on 30-06 or 300 WSM. Based on volume if sales and the age of potential fire arms and the metallurgy in play.

I decided to keep my 6.5 CM for I can use it for for Western deer/pronghorn in place if a 6.5 PRC or even my 270 with this cartridge and makes more room in my stash... The 270 may become a 35 Whelen...

But I degrees.
 
I think the 308 is the next logical step. If that would make it somewhere between 30/06 and 300 WM in performance from a 20” barrel, it would be perfect. Heck, even if it gave 30/06 performance from a 20” barrel, it would be great. And I would think that every bolt action rifle ever chambered in 308 would work just fine.
Beyond that, I’d like to see them do that to the 7-08 as well. That should give you approximately 280 AI performance I would think. Not much ground you couldn’t cover with the 6.5, 7-08 and 308 at those levels. Also, a 223 at near 22/250 performance would round you out completely.
 
I’m watching the developments intently as well. Really looking forward to 308 being released. 300 fps increase coupled with the phenomenal terminal ascent bullet will be a big success.

From my rifle builder that does all my precision rifles…

“I also wanted to give you a FYI, Federal will be adding more Alloy cases this year to their line-up.

I was told by an inside guy that multiple popular calibers will be released. If you have seen the new PXT barrels from Proof, that is all part of it.”
 
txtrout75218 said:
They said they couldn't detect any increased recoil over standard 6.5CM loads. And that makes sense to me since the volume of powder isn't increased, the recoil shouldn't increase. Same bullets used in standard and +Peak loads.
Click to expand...
I would have to respectfully, disagree Sir. If you look at the variables that affect recoil impulse it includes bullet weight, bullet velocity, powder charge, and firearm weight. Federal is running up to 155g bullets in the new +Peak ammo, and is also claiming 300fps more velocity in the std bullet weights. Increase either one and the recoil impulse will increase some. Powder charge may or may not go up but that increased pressure has to come from adding more chemical energy to the package. The good news is that the 6.5CM does not recoil much to begin with and even with the added oomph it should be a light kicker.

Example: A 6.5CM in a 7.5lb rifle loaded with the Hornady 143g ELDx at 2710 fps has a recoil energy of 14.85 ft-lbs.

If we can magically, increase the velocity by 300fps with the same weight of a different powder the recoil energy increases to 17.07 ft-lbs. Adding a few grains of powder increases it further but not much. This is still less recoil than a 270 of the same weight. A 155g bullet in the same rifle running up to 2750fps would have almost the same increase in recoil (17.39ft-lbs). Physics is hard to ignore.

txtrout75218 said:
Federal told them no increased barrel wear.
Click to expand...
Time will tell on this one. It is hard for me to reconcile that a cartridge's pressure has increased from 65,000 to 80,000 psi and this is possible without increasing the heat energy that must flow down the bore with each shot. Weatherby is famous for increasing the velocity of std cartridges but it comes at a price. +Peak is doing the same thing without increasing the volume of the case. It still must increase the energy somehow. There is no free lunch. For velocity to increase the energy input must also increase. Is the new +Peak a bbl burner? I dunno but I would take Federal's claim with a big dose of salt for now.

txtrout75218 said:
While is suspect that we will/may see this +Peak in 308, I don't think we will ever see it on 30-06 or 300 WSM. Based on volume if sales and the age of potential fire arms and the metallurgy in play.

I decided to keep my 6.5 CM for I can use it for for Western deer/pronghorn in place if a 6.5 PRC or even my 270 with this cartridge and makes more room in my stash... The 270 may become a 35 Whelen...
Click to expand...
+Peak is a cool concept and at least for me, boosting the performance of compact cartridges that fit into short actions with shorter bbls is where it will shine the most. My 7mm/08 is a perfect example. It is a short handy rifle that can carry a suppressor and still be a tidy package. But, compared to the 7mm RM it begins to wheeze out past 300-400y. Adding even 200fps would be a boon for big game hunting. Adding 160g factory loads is another. I would love that.
 
I love the idea of this plus peak ammo. 6.5 creedmoor is perfect for it. I’d suspect you can look at what cartridge sells the most and that’ll be the next version of this. I’ve got a 300 wsm and it’d be amazing to try it with that but I doubt that’ll happen.

I spoke with federal at the summer DSC show and specifically asked about the 308 and they’ve been well trained to keep quiet about what’s next.
 
@JG26Irish_2

I don't disagree with you. I understand physics very well. Just not enough coffee in Saturday morning and left out part of my sentence that while that's what Federal told them about the recoil, powder, etc. I didn't agree with that.

The basic point is that the testes said they couldn't tell a difference in recoil and I believe them. They were shooting the same bullets in standard and Peak loads. Both of them are my size, 6' and 180 plus lbs. I wouldn't notice three pounds of increased recoil either. But I would notice if shooting a PRC.

As for the barrel life, I also expect that it would be a shorter life. I doubt many hunters will shoot a CM enough to know. And if you only use it as your hunting load, with just a bit of sighting in, then would it be noticeable on lifespan?

And as for the 7-08, it's my favorite cartridge, but I won't hold my breath on it making it to the +Peak treatment as nice as that would be. But we can dream.
 
txtrout75218 said:
The Federal Web sight changed from an August release to a Fall release.
Click to expand...
I can imagine the legal beagles at Federal being a bit uneasy about the potential liability of putting out ammo running 23% higher pressures than the rifles intended to shoot it were designed for. Even new rifles with modern manufacturing and QC will be subjected to more stress than the design criteria. It is doubtful that they should fail since designs typically include safety margins to prevent failure under any conditions.

But... Can you imagine the $#it storm if somebody's rifle pops a cork with the new hot loads? The rifle mfg is going to claim that their product was never intended to shoot the new ammo and Federal will be holding the bag for producing an obviously more dangerous product. It is a liability lawyer's gold mine. I suspect they are looking at a variety of 6.5CM rifles and trying to understand the real risk of failures. I suspect the real risk is very small but it would only take one foul up to kill a promising product.

This is an obvious attempt to counter competition from the Hornady Superformance line. Hornady gets their 100ish extra fps from their proprietary propellant blends that generate more velocity from presumably pressures that still do not exceed the SAMMI design ceilings. I would love to see the pressure curves as it is hard to increase velocity without also increasing pressure but energy is the area under the curve, not the peak pressure, so it can be done. Federal is taking a more brute force approach to the problem which does come with it's own can of worms.

The way I look at it, a typical short action is designed to handle the stresses from any short cartridge that could fit into it and this could include 308 for example or even the short magnums such as the WSM line. It would be unlikely that a hot loaded 6.5CM would exceed that even at the +Peak pressures. But, I do not have enough info to know that with any certainty. Depending on how close that load is might also determine if we would ever see a +Peak 308 product. Still, it is only an engineering problem and is no different than when Ruger and Mauser and others developed Magnum pressure cartridges that were short enough to fit into a std length action than a magnum length action.

I came from a world of product development and understand the need for prototyping, testing, data collection and destructive testing as well as outside, 3rd party testing before launching a new consumer product. Time is your enemy and time to market is critical. I do not envy the product manager rolling the dice on his/her career with this new launch. Maybe they should re-brand it the "Big-Baller +P cartridge?" or "the Magic BB".
 
JG26Irish_2 said:
I would have to respectfully, disagree Sir. If you look at the variables that affect recoil impulse it includes bullet weight, bullet velocity, powder charge, and firearm weight. Federal is running up to 155g bullets in the new +Peak ammo, and is also claiming 300fps more velocity in the std bullet weights. Increase either one and the recoil impulse will increase some. Powder charge may or may not go up but that increased pressure has to come from adding more chemical energy to the package. The good news is that the 6.5CM does not recoil much to begin with and even with the added oomph it should be a light kicker.

Example: A 6.5CM in a 7.5lb rifle loaded with the Hornady 143g ELDx at 2710 fps has a recoil energy of 14.85 ft-lbs.

If we can magically, increase the velocity by 300fps with the same weight of a different powder the recoil energy increases to 17.07 ft-lbs. Adding a few grains of powder increases it further but not much. This is still less recoil than a 270 of the same weight. A 155g bullet in the same rifle running up to 2750fps would have almost the same increase in recoil (17.39ft-lbs). Physics is hard to ignore.


Time will tell on this one. It is hard for me to reconcile that a cartridge's pressure has increased from 65,000 to 80,000 psi and this is possible without increasing the heat energy that must flow down the bore with each shot. Weatherby is famous for increasing the velocity of std cartridges but it comes at a price. +Peak is doing the same thing without increasing the volume of the case. It still must increase the energy somehow. There is no free lunch. For velocity to increase the energy input must also increase. Is the new +Peak a bbl burner? I dunno but I would take Federal's claim with a big dose of salt for now.


+Peak is a cool concept and at least for me, boosting the performance of compact cartridges that fit into short actions with shorter bbls is where it will shine the most. My 7mm/08 is a perfect example. It is a short handy rifle that can carry a suppressor and still be a tidy package. But, compared to the 7mm RM it begins to wheeze out past 300-400y. Adding even 200fps would be a boon for big game hunting. Adding 160g factory loads is another. I would love that.
Click to expand...
Love my the 7-08 cartridge. It’s typically chambered in light handy rifles and is certainly capable to 300-400y. But you are correct that past that it starts loosing steam. My solution to that was to have my 24” barreled 7-08 cut to an AI chamber. My handloads drive a 141gr Hammer HBC at 3050 fps. Which matches 280ai performance and is nipping on the heels of the 7mm rem mag. This out of a short action rifle.

Which now brings to question are the new Federal +peak cases going to be something you could AI as well?

I haven’t played with the new cartridges yet but I might see how they shoot in my kids rifles.
 
txtrout75218 said:
I have not been able to try it out yet. However, I'm friends with two gun writers and they were both very impressed with the cartridge upgrade.

They said they couldn't detect any increased recoil over standard 6.5CM loads. And that makes sense to me since the volume of powder isn't increased, the recoil shouldn't increase. Same bullets used in standard and +Peak loads.

Accuracy was good and actually better with he terminal accent bullet out of the +Peak over the standard load.

Federal to old them no increased barrel wear.

While is suspect that we will/may see this +Peak in 308, I don't think we will ever see it on 30-06 or 300 WSM. Based on volume if sales and the age of potential fire arms and the metallurgy in play.

I decided to keep my 6.5 CM for I can use it for for Western deer/pronghorn in place if a 6.5 PRC or even my 270 with this cartridge and makes more room in my stash... The 270 may become a 35 Whelen...

But I degrees.
Click to expand...
@txtrout75218
Turn that 270 into a WHELEN load it up with CFE223 nd you will get a 200-300fps improvement over factory rounds. Maybe you could call it 35 Whelen +P peak ammo. Ha Ha Ha Ha
Bob
 
Razorback said:
I’m watching the developments intently as well. Really looking forward to 308 being released. 300 fps increase coupled with the phenomenal terminal ascent bullet will be a big success.

From my rifle builder that does all my precision rifles…

“I also wanted to give you a FYI, Federal will be adding more Alloy cases this year to their line-up.

I was told by an inside guy that multiple popular calibers will be released. If you have seen the new PXT barrels from Proof, that is all part of it.”
Click to expand...
@Razorback
Using the right powder you can safely give the little 08 a boost.
I run 150gn accubonds at 2,950 fps out of my son's 22" barrel 08, that's not much difference to the 06.
You can also get over 2,800fps with 168grainers in the little 08.
Market is a Wonderful tool to get people to buy newer and hoot better but similar can be done by a handloaders in my humble opinion.
Just by changing powders I got an extra 150-250 fps out of my 25 with the same or similar pressure.
I do love marketing hype it gets me thinking is it really that much better than what we can already do.
Bob
 
JG26Irish_2 said:
I can imagine the legal beagles at Federal being a bit uneasy about the potential liability of putting out ammo running 23% higher pressures than the rifles intended to shoot it were designed for. Even new rifles with modern manufacturing and QC will be subjected to more stress than the design criteria. It is doubtful that they should fail since designs typically include safety margins to prevent failure under any conditions.

But... Can you imagine the $#it storm if somebody's rifle pops a cork with the new hot loads? The rifle mfg is going to claim that their product was never intended to shoot the new ammo and Federal will be holding the bag for producing an obviously more dangerous product. It is a liability lawyer's gold mine. I suspect they are looking at a variety of 6.5CM rifles and trying to understand the real risk of failures. I suspect the real risk is very small but it would only take one foul up to kill a promising product.

This is an obvious attempt to counter competition from the Hornady Superformance line. Hornady gets their 100ish extra fps from their proprietary propellant blends that generate more velocity from presumably pressures that still do not exceed the SAMMI design ceilings. I would love to see the pressure curves as it is hard to increase velocity without also increasing pressure but energy is the area under the curve, not the peak pressure, so it can be done. Federal is taking a more brute force approach to the problem which does come with it's own can of worms.

The way I look at it, a typical short action is designed to handle the stresses from any short cartridge that could fit into it and this could include 308 for example or even the short magnums such as the WSM line. It would be unlikely that a hot loaded 6.5CM would exceed that even at the +Peak pressures. But, I do not have enough info to know that with any certainty. Depending on how close that load is might also determine if we would ever see a +Peak 308 product. Still, it is only an engineering problem and is no different than when Ruger and Mauser and others developed Magnum pressure cartridges that were short enough to fit into a std length action than a magnum length action.

I came from a world of product development and understand the need for prototyping, testing, data collection and destructive testing as well as outside, 3rd party testing before launching a new consumer product. Time is your enemy and time to market is critical. I do not envy the product manager rolling the dice on his/her career with this new launch. Maybe they should re-brand it the "Big-Baller +P cartridge?" or "the Magic BB".
Click to expand...
@JG26Irish_2
The traditional pressure curve is a parabolic bell curve where peak pressure is achieved quickly and drops quickly.
With some modern powders this curve is different. Peak pressure is achieved at the same time but takes longer to fall maintaining a higher pressure and falling gradually. The net result is the bullet velocity is higher for the same peak pressure because pressure is maintained for a longer period.
Thats how it was explained to me when I rang and spoke to some boffin at Hornady and asked how I'm getting higher velocity with apparently the same pressure.
Bob
 
Elkeater said:
Love my the 7-08 cartridge. It’s typically chambered in light handy rifles and is certainly capable to 300-400y. But you are correct that past that it starts loosing steam. My solution to that was to have my 24” barreled 7-08 cut to an AI chamber. My handloads drive a 141gr Hammer HBC at 3050 fps. Which matches 280ai performance and is nipping on the heels of the 7mm rem mag. This out of a short action rifle.

Which now brings to question are the new Federal +peak cases going to be something you could AI as well?

I haven’t played with the new cartridges yet but I might see how they shoot in my kids rifles.
Click to expand...
@Elkeater
As PO Ackerly said his aim wasn't to increase velocity it was to extend case life.
I have found when I make the AI version of a case I have to increase the powder charge to get back to the same velocity as the original load. More velocity is only achieved by putting more coal on the fire thus increasing the pressure.
PO found very few cases that actually showed any meaningful gain over the standard case but case life was greatly improved.
The 35 Whelen AI is a classic example. The gain ain't worth the effort. The AI version ain't doing much more than a properly loaded Whelen.
The 250 Savage, 7mm Mauser the old 06 and even the humble 30-30 show great improvement.
Others like the rounds base in the 308 even when they have the AI treatment show minimal improvement as the case is already at the optimum taper, you can't straighten it out much more
Roy Weatherby took the 3O0 H&H case with its long tapered case and gently shoulder the blew it out almost straight, altered the shoulder angle etc and made the ultimate 300. His double radius Venturi should did nothing but it sure sounded good and was a great marketing ploy. Then he poured a bucket full of coal in it and boosted the pressure over the H&H.
When you go for higher velocity in an AI case something has to give and that's usually pressure has to increase there's no free lunches. Changing powders can sometimes achieve
the same results especially with some of the newer powders.
That's just my humbly opinion tho
Bob
 
I’m told .308 and 5.56 are coming. Federal has secured a contact to make everything from 9mm to 50 BMG in the new alloy (two of their employees stated this on the Vortex Nation podcast). I really hope they make this in .270 Winchester.
 
WTF_goes_here said:
I’m told .308 and 5.56 are coming. Federal has secured a contact to make everything from 9mm to 50 BMG in the new alloy (two of their employees stated this on the Vortex Nation podcast). I really hope they make this in .270 Winchester.
Click to expand...
It is just a matter of time for it to hit shelves. Word from insiders is that it was actually the 7-08 that got done first in testing a number of years ago… watch new military rifle contracts to see which will follow to next civilian releases…
All new DMRs in 6.5creed?
All new spec ops shift to 6arc?
New sniper rifles in 7prc?
Etc

Top pressures being used are will above 80k
 
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