404 jeffery vs 416 Rigby

Rule 303 said:
Don't know where you get your info but non of my 375, 416 -largest bore I have, or my friends -they go up to the 505 need fillers. I certainly do have trouble with lack of powder space when using extruded powders with mono's in my 375H&H and 358/338RUM. So in the end a Magnum length action is the best way to go with long cases.
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M

Thread 'fillers for nitro express'

any sentiments/ experience using dacron vs foam fillers for nitro express cartridges?
specifically, 450 3 1/4

thankx
  • Like
 
I own and reload big bore rifles . 600NE , 500NE , 505G , 425 , 416 Rigby and 404J , 450/400NE . None require fillers to work perfectly . My reloads are all based off information provided by Graeme Wright’s excellent “Shooting the British Double Rifle “ and the Woodleigh reloading manual which also covers bolt action rifles . I suspect the need to use inert fillers comes down to what powders are available in different countries .
 
Depending on the type of powder used, a filler is required in all cases by loading larger Nitro Express cartridges. It is also advantageous, regardless of the powder used and if you don't have a load density of 100%, to have a slight compression of the powder column with a filler to ensure a more reliable ignition of the great amount of powder.

However, I have also loaded the cartridge 416 Rigby cartridge, but never needed a filler for it.
 
Happy Myles said:
I am sure the 404 is a great cartridge. However, when I bought my 416 Rigby 60 years ago Frank Pachmeyer talked me into what became my favorite rifle. It was crafted by Griffin & Howe . It is still a beauty, extremely accurate, easy to hand load and works efficiently. What more could I ask? It has killed scores of Cape Buffalo, several elephant, two of my four lion, one of several leopard, and countless plains game. Almost all one shot kills. What more could I ask? I will try to send a photo the bullets in the photo each represent one shot Nyati kills on one safari. Still a beauty despite many, many safaris some lorry hanger rash on barrel bluing and on close look some scratches on the beautiful wood. It has been my best safari friend.
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Such a beauty deserves to be seen
 
Ontario Hunter said:
Jeffery switched to magnum action because the bottom metal didn't have to be redesigned ( = time and $$$). For 404 a magnum action has no strength advantage over standard action. Even 375 H&H and 416 Rigby could be built on standard action, but it required rebuilding bottom metal and relieving some metal from the locking ring (but still plenty strong enough). Remember, during the interwar years magnum action production all but dried up and the big name British makers were forced to fall back on using standard actions to fill big bore orders. Ruark's Harry Selby shot a standard length 416 Rigby ... built by Rigby.

Making guns cheaper is "better" if nothing important is sacrificed to obtain it. A standard length 404 Jeffery can be just as beautiful as a magnum action 404. And there is no doubt the two actions are equal in strength or at least equal enough. The major difference is bolt throw and it is hard not to give standard action the advantage in that department. I don't own a magnum Mauser but I simply cannot fathom how one could possibly cycle any smoother or quicker than the standard Mauser 404 I built. I've posted a video of me cycling dummy rounds and it is genuinely effortless and flawless to operate.
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I defer to @Ontario Hunter on this given he has built his own with great attention to details he shared with all of us and I respect that
 
Rare Breed said:
I defer to @Ontario Hunter on this given he has built his own with great attention to details he shared with all of us and I respect that
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Like I said he is not taking into account some of the new Monoi metals. I built a 358 RUM based on the 338RUM case and these are very similar in size to the 404J. If I did not use a magnum length action the Woodleigh Hydros would reduce the amount of powder I can use due to the bullet seated deep into the case. This even with a Rem 700 long action opened to the rear. For standard bullets Ontario Hunter is correct. He does mention less risk of short stroking, I have seen people short stroke a short action so I really do not think this is relevant.
 
PCC600 said:
I own and reload big bore rifles . 600NE , 500NE , 505G , 425 , 416 Rigby and 404J , 450/400NE . None require fillers to work perfectly . My reloads are all based off information provided by Graeme Wright’s excellent “Shooting the British Double Rifle “ and the Woodleigh reloading manual which also covers bolt action rifles . I suspect the need to use inert fillers comes down to what powders are available in different countries .
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I use filler for my .470 as the regulation load by Ken Owen is…

78gr IMR3031, 2.0gr Dacron filler, Win LRM primer & 500gr bullet.

This load was supposed to duplicate Hornady factory loads in my 24” barrels and I confirmed it by firing factory ammo and hand loads through a chronograph; same POI & velocity; but the IMR3031 load has MUCH less recoil.

My avatar pic is a R&L group @50yds.

I did switch to open cell foam wads for ease of loading and lower pressure, with zero affect on velocity or regulation.

Never used a filler in .416Rigby and don’t plan on it for .404J
 
Rule 303 said:
Like I said he is not taking into account some of the new Monoi metals. I built a 358 RUM based on the 338RUM case and these are very similar in size to the 404J. If I did not use a magnum length action the Woodleigh Hydros would reduce the amount of powder I can use due to the bullet seated deep into the case. This even with a Rem 700 long action opened to the rear. For standard bullets Ontario Hunter is correct. He does mention less risk of short stroking, I have seen people short stroke a short action so I really do not think this is relevant.
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I didn't say a standard action eliminates short stroking. I'm sure there are folks who can short stroke a .22 rimfire. But longer stroke obviously increases the probability of short stroking. It's a matter of physics.

400 gr Barnes TSX 404J is not a "standard bullet." It shoots with 80 gr Accurate 4350 just fine. I'm guessing maybe 2200 fps. I believe powder is compressed but any reloader will tell you 4350 is quite compressible. I'm not sure the case volume would handle 2400 fps loads or 450 gr bullets but the cartridge was not designed for it. For those who aspire to such nonsense, they can either have the locking ring relieved to handle longer COL 404 cartridges or trade his 404 for a 416 Rigby.
 
Ontario Hunter said:
I didn't say a standard action eliminates short stroking. I'm sure there are folks who can short stroke a .22 rimfire. But longer stroke obviously increases the probability of short stroking. It's a matter of physics.

400 gr Barnes TSX 404J is not a "standard bullet." It shoots with 80 gr Accurate 4350 just fine. I'm guessing maybe 2200 fps. I believe powder is compressed but any reloader will tell you 4350 is quite compressible. I'm not sure the case volume would handle 2400 fps loads or 450 gr bullets but the cartridge was not designed for it. For those who aspire to such nonsense, they can either have the locking ring relieved to handle longer COL 404 cartridges or trade his 404 for a 416 Rigby.
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I'll concede the point on short stroking.

Buy some Woodleigh Hydro's and see if you can get them to work as you claim. There is at least one South African made solid mono metal that I have seen, is very long as well. I will state you will not. The grandparent or great grandparent of the RUM case is the 404J. That is why I said standard bullets and Barnes nowadays are well and truly standard. The 404 also has a fairly long neck too.

I agree that chasing 2400 fps with a 400 grain bullet in a 404 is pushing the boundaries and not needed. From what I have read in, its hay day the Rigby actual muzzle velocity was probably closer to 2200 fps.

Re 4350 (AR2209) is a very good powder that I use in the 416 Rigby and the 358/338RUM amongst others.
I still maintain, each to his own and a magnum Length action is designed for these cartridges so why not use one. People don't have to if they do not wish to.

Anyhow, may you have warm barrels (y)
 
This thread started over 12 years ago. Perhaps a welfare check on the original poster is required….just to make sure he hasn’t kicked the bucket since he posted.
 
Just to stir the pot!
Or you could make a 416WSM on a Siamese Mauser.
The shorter bolt throw than the alteratives, no case filler needed, and 67gn of AR2206H sends a 400gn at 2251fps.
Whats not to love.
 
IvW said:
Short stroking only occurs when the one handling the rifle does it wrong. Length of action will not eliminate that.....
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Again, no one said it will eliminate it. Reduce the potential to inadvertantly short stroke is not the same as eliminate it. In an unfamiliar threatening situation sometimes some folks tend to get in a hurry. Especially if a person, like myself, has become accustomed to shooting a standard action (I.e. sixty years hunting deer, elk, and moose with a Springfield 03A3), suddenly switching to magnum length could conceivably lead to short stroking a less familiar longer bolt throw in the heat of the moment. I would guesstimate the potential to short stroke a magnum would also increase if cycling from the shoulder (which is not how I shoot).
 
Grumpy gumpy said:
"have the locking ring relieved"
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To get the 404J or the 416R to fit a standard action it is best to relieve/open the action at the trigger end of the loading port. But there is a limit on how far you can go. Then a limited amount can be taken be taken at the front of the port which in effect takes material from the lower locking lug (not to outer diameter). Roy Dunlap and others have documented this mod. Ontario was NOT advocating the mod.
 
Grumpy gumpy said:
??
What do you mean by "have the locking ring relieved"
No one in their right mind would touch the locking ring
Gumpy
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Duane Wiebe built a lot of 375 that way. Doesn't require carving away much on a 98 Mauser. P14 and 1917 already had it carved away at the factory. Rigby built many 416 on standard action after the war. Cartridge is so long that they can't be ejected unless some of the locking ring is removed to make ejection port long enough. The bolt lug doesn't lock against that part of the ring anyway.

The rear ring/bridge can be thinned a bit on the inside of ejection side to allow fatter magnum cartridges to eject in standard action. Don't take too much or the extractor will jump its track. A magnum length extractor can fix it if that happens. A Dremel tool with grinding wheel did the job for me. Some makers will machine the rear bridge back and change extractors. Probably makes loading the magazine a bit easier. 404 just fits without needing to remove anything from the locking ring. It should: Jeffery designed the cartridge for standard length action.
 
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