Do the 577 and 600 nitro really offer anything?

In order to stay in the upper caliber class, whether the cartridges 577 Nitro Express or 600 Nitro Express work better than a cartridge 500 Jeffery for example, will remain questionable. None of us have shot enough big game with various big bore rifles and cartridges to be able to say with certainty which really works better. We can only quoted hunters and authors who have done it, but they also give often multiple cartridges a clear advantage.

Many died failing to stop elephants with 577.....600 is way too heavy and at 1950 fps I am not interested anyway....

For bolts 500 Jeff and 505 Gibbs are the ultimate for doubles 500 NE is the one......

I am reading John Taylor’s book at the moment. ‘African Rifles and Cartridges’. He opines that the 577 and 600 have their place, but it is mostly as a stopping rifle for elephant and rhino. He recommends using them as a backup rifle, carried by someone else if you have to follow a wounded elephant or rhino into the thick stuff. He says they are too heavy and have too much recoil for primary use [sic].

mickb said:

fellas I have often wondered if the two biggest elephant guns of the smokeless era offeered anything or whether they were again more marketing for the safari crowd who A wanted the biggest and B, weere used to calibres so large like 10, 8 and 4 bores they felt a 577 and 600 in a smokeless guise would be a gfreat seller, or maybe just a psychologival benefit.

Obviously shooting thick skinned game you arent trying to shock the animal to death but I have always wondered if the 577 and 600 nitro with their actual velocities probably down to 1850-1900fps impact are actually better or worse killers/penetrators/shockers/stoppers than a fast loaded 500 or 458 cal?

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If I was going to buy a stopping rifle, I'd custom order a 600/577 REWA.

1.) It's a very cool cartridge.

2.) It's better than a .577

3.) It is VERY traditional, invented for the Maharajah / Nawab / Emir of Rewa a century ago.

4.) It's just a 600NE necked down to the common and easier to find .577 bullets

5.) Recoil is no less/more manageable than a 577NE

6.) You're getting better penetration than the 600 and 700

7.) It's weight is reasonable, in the 13.5lb range like a good 577

Personally I would like to see something like a 500 No.2 3 1/2 NE.....massive strong case firing a 600gr .510 bullet at 2150 to 2250 fps.....for me that would be the ultimate double rifle cartridge......

I'm putting feelers out, but would anyone be interested in a 577?

IvW said:

Because it looks like a cow and not a gaur......

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It feel me a Banteng ...gaur very different

When it comes to the game depicted in #86, it is a Gayal.

I hunt pigs and feral goats here in Australia with my 458Lott and shot two shots with a 500NE at the Heym factory 2 or 3 weeks ago. That’s the extent of my personal experience so I’m clearly no expert. I do however consume enormous amounts of YouTube content haha.

Many experienced hunters in Africa, including people who shoot a lot of water buffalo’s in Australia, say that the 375 will do the job but the 416’s are a noticeable step up in performance.

I feel that a lot of PH’s want their clients to bring a 416 because they all to often have guy coming over with big guns they can’t shoot well. Also, for some people as long as the animal dies then that’s enough. For them anything over a 416 is a waste.

All of that together can give the impression that a 416 or 458 is really good and that after that there’s isn’t much benefit.

However, with me extensive and authoritative YouTube research

I’ve come to the conclusion that:

1) shot placement is more important than the calibre. A good shot with a 9.3x62 will outperformed a bad shot with a 600NE.

2) the killing power and stopping power does just keep going up as the guns get bigger.

I base this on several things. For instance, I’ve seen (on YouTube) head shots in elephants seeming have no effect with a 375 but make a noticeable difference with say, a 500NE. Both shots missed the brain, but with the 375 you really had to hit that brain or the elephant wasn’t slowed.

I’ve also seen PH’s like Mark Sullivan (on YouTube) really knock the wind out of fleeing buffalo after the client didn’t do a good shot. It wasn’t spined but it staggered after a shot from a 577NE. I personally don’t think that would have been the reaction form a 416 weatherby.

Also, Buzz Charlton not only chose a 500NE to replace his 416 but he has mentioned the benefit of using a “heavy calibre” when the client doesn’t quite hit the brain.

Lastly, I recently saw a video on instagram that Double Rifle society shared. It was of an American shooting a pig with a 577NE. It was a perfect shot through the face. The pig dropped to the shot, but get this, the bullet went the full length of the pig and exited the rear end. The pigs internals were munched up. The pig was like a bag of mush. My 458Lott would not do that.

I think provided your want to bare the costs in weight and recoil AND YOU CAN SHOOT IT ACCURATELY, then - to answer the original question - there really is a noticeable difference in effect on large game. I also think, (for what my opinion is worth) that with the modern solids (Woodleigh Hydro's, CEB’s etc) penetration isn’t an issue. And again, that is without experience. It’s just that I’ve heard numerous stories from people who have shot elephants through both shoulders or through the head using these bullets with what I’d consider not particularly deep penetrating cartrages.

In conclusion, a well placed 375 or 416 through the brain of an elephant will do the job but I can see a place for a 577 if the PH / Client can handle it. A snap shot to the head may well stun or turn the elephant allowing time for another shot that a 375 would not have achieved. Also, sometimes the client needs to stop the charge. I’ve seen tusklass hunts go wrong and the PH misses the brain on both shots on a cow but the client stopped it. Also if imagine a 600NE to the hip of an elephant would be more effective than a 458.
After all that, maybe a 505 Gibbs would be similar if it’s loaded hot, but then again you can hardly say the 577 is a joke if you are going to load up a 505 Gibbs and all the recoil that has haha.

Just my thoughts. That instagram video of the pig sealed the deal for me. A 577 is a big step up from the little baby 458 Lott. I’m not sure that a 500NE is in the same way.

Speaking metaphorically, when most people go to the Tree of Knowledge of Dangerous Game and Cartridges, very few of them get past the low hanging fruit.
"The 375 is enough gun",
".577 NE is too much gun.",
" Hornady bullets are good bullets"
and on and on.

Then they take this low hanging fruit and convince themselves that it the real good fruit from further up the Tree of Knowledge of Dangerous Game and Cartridges.

But it is not. It is mostly all from the echo chamber of gun stores and advertising. It is based in redundant talking points, hearsay and the world wide fear of the recoil of a true big bore.

I have said this before in different ways and the reaction from the amateur cape buffalo hunters always has that familiar ring of defensiveness.

If you have killed multiple cape buffalo with well place shots from calibers of .375HH to .577NE using premium bullets, you are not going to be one of the folks trotting out speculation, hearsay and bullshit about terminal ballistics on cape buffalo. You will actually know how each calibre performs.

There are many, many cape buffalo hunters who have much more experience than me with both little rifles like the .375 and true full bores up to the .577NE. Their post on this subject are easy to recognize. I learned the skinny on terminal performance by asking them questions and it saved me a lot of time and money and greatly enhanced my experience.
Happy hunting.

The .375H&H work splendid on cape buffalo..penetrate well and give good results as long as bullet placement is good and you use premium bullets..ie Swift A-frame..

All is well..until things go south and you get a charge, either because your shot(s) did not kill or you get an unprovoked charge..yes it happens from both bulls and cows.

Then your beloved .375H&H bolt rifle suddenly seems awfully small..

I never trust my PH/guide to handle every situation..better be prepared with a rifle with proper stopping capability..my reason to hunt buffalo with a .470 double..it crumples them.

But each to his own..

Well, a gentleman on AH has described the "immediately lay down sick and die" performance of the 577 with some of the newer projectiles like cutting edge raptors. He was even using a single shot, but then, no followup was necessary. Was that you, Brian?
Puts things in a whole new light, for lights out effect.

steve white said:

Well, a gentleman on AH has described the "immediately lay down sick and die" performance of the 577 with some of the newer projectiles like cutting edge raptors. He was even using a single shot, but then, no followup was necessary. Was that you, Brian?
Puts things in a whole new light, for lights out effect.

Click to expand...

Steve,

Yes, that was me, thanks for mentioning it.

I used Cutting Edge Bullets (CEB) and Peregrine Bushmaster bullets in the .577 NE loaded down to moderate velocities and CEB Raptors in .50-110 Winchester loaded up to just south of 500 NE velocities.

All shots hit the lungs but less that half hit the heart. I think that there were 13 buffalo in total and most were at about 50 yds. All were one shot, DRT kills.
Previously, I killed 6 cape buffalo with a .375 HH using 300 grain NorthFork bullets.

I am booked for water buffalo in NT, Australia next year. I will be using CEB bullets in my 50-110 Winchester, TC Encore. with a scope. I am told they are generally bigger than cape buffalo but not quite so aggressive. I will be 82 years old.
Happy hunting.

Now that I have the microphone I think that I should say something about the .375 even though I have said it too many times in the past.

I consider the .375 to be a poor and risky cartridge to hunt cape buffalo with.

I know that the 375 is the most popular cape buffalo cartridge out there, and so is the Hornady DG bullet one of the most popular buffalo bullets. They are both the last choice as far as I am concerned.

I believe that the .375's popularity is due mostly to it's "shootability", ie. It's mild recoil.

I don't say this to be annoying, but I know it does bother people. Sorry about that.
By sharing my observations about terminal ballistics on cape buffalo I set in motion the concern that my words on the subject may have consequences.

Just because I emphasize that certain bullets will enhance the killing power of a buffalo hunting cartridge I don't think that applies to "minimal" cartridges like the .375 which do not have substantial potential in the first place.

I believe that the 375 does not have the potential to become a "good" cape buffalo cartridge by simply upgrading the bullet. Appologies to the thousands of .375 aficionados.

Like many of you, several times when I have stood 20 to 50 yds away from a quiet undisturbed cape buffalo and hit it hard in the heart/lungs with a .375 HH sporting a maximum load and a premium bullet, I have witnessed the buffalo, cow or bull react by running and bucking hard for at least 30 to 60 yds. I have had couple of these "hard hit" buffalos, go tearing right past me within 10 yards. ( What's wrong with that picture?)

Hunting cape buffalo with a .375 is worse than driving you car without wearing your seat belt which is considered by all, to be poor judgement.

Perhaps they offer a detached retina?

Brian said:

Now that I have the microphone I think that I should say something about the .375 even though I have said it too many times in the past.

I consider the .375 to be a poor and risky cartridge to hunt cape buffalo with.

I know that the 375 is the most popular cape buffalo cartridge out there, and so is the Hornady DG bullet one of the most popular buffalo bullets. They are both the last choice as far as I am concerned.

I believe that the .375's popularity is due mostly to it's "shootability", ie. It's mild recoil.

I don't say this to be annoying, but I know it does bother people. Sorry about that.
By sharing my observations about terminal ballistics on cape buffalo I set in motion the concern that my words on the subject may have consequences.

Just because I emphasize that certain bullets will enhance the killing power of a buffalo hunting cartridge I don't think that applies to "minimal" cartridges like the .375 which do not have substantial potential in the first place.

I believe that the 375 does not have the potential to become a "good" cape buffalo cartridge by simply upgrading the bullet. Appologies to the thousands of .375 aficionados.

Like many of you, several times when I have stood 20 to 50 yds away from a quiet undisturbed cape buffalo and hit it hard in the heart/lungs with a .375 HH sporting a maximum load and a premium bullet, I have witnessed the buffalo, cow or bull react by running and bucking hard for at least 30 to 60 yds. I have had couple of these "hard hit" buffalos, go tearing right past me within 10 yards. ( What's wrong with that picture?)

Hunting cape buffalo with a .375 is worse than driving you car without wearing your seat belt which is considered by all, to be poor judgement.

Click to expand...

I agree that bigger is better as long as you shoot it well. What is the minimum caliber you feel comfortable hunting buffalo with?

Yeah, I can imagine from a PH’s perspective they see so often a guy show up with a 500 + and they role their eyes. I would not be surprised if more than half of them can’t shoot it well.
With that in mind I am fairly confident that some PH’s would be recommending a 375 / 416 for everyone. Because, as we all agree, shot placement is by far the most important factor. I too would rather a client bring a 9.3 and get the buff in the heart and have it run off. At least the things going to die.
But that also misses something. While a lot of PH’s have the client’s satisfaction as a high priority I think for those of us weirdo’s that love shooting big bores it’s not so fun to just kill it as it is to really feel the power of the gun and know it’s having a big effect on the game. It’s kind of like the satisfaction of releasing an arrow in my opinion.

The point of what I said was just as a reminder that saying a 375 will do the job or that a 416 is “perfect” isn’t always the right answer, even if it’s true in other ways.

As I said, from watching that pig die from the 577 really impressed me.

There must be more effect on larger game like buffalo.

One of the gentlemen above said he’s going to the NT to shoot water buffalo next year. I’ve heard a lot of people say they are at least as hard to kill as Cape buffalo and they are bigger animals.
There is a really good YouTuber based in the Northern Territory. He is some kind of professional shooter (pest control etc) but in his own time just for fun hunts wild pigs and water buffalo. His Chanel is “Territorian_577”.
He uses a 500NE double and a 577NE but one do the shorter versions that shoots a 650gr @2,000fps. It’s in a light single shot rifle haha.

He says that while you can kill them with smaller calibres obviously, the 500 and 577 really “take away their will” as he describes it. He’s also a fantastic shot.

There’s very interesting content on his channel. He has a GoPro over his shoulder. He even shot a buffalo with a 12 gauge solid and found out the hard way it’s not a good choice haha.

Good luck with your trip.

woodsrunner said:

Perhaps they offer a detached retina?

Click to expand...

woodsrunner, Frankly I have often thought about that and have done a small bit of research on it.
A detached retina would be bad!
I know that some soldiers who have fired the 50BMG a lot, get a kind of damage to the body but I am not sure what it is. I should do a deep AI search on the effects of recoil. I sometimes think that I have some mental issues developing in my old age. ( I have been through the mill with chemo treatment and probably just have "Chemo Brain".) But still recoil could be a factor like boxing, additive. ( I boxed too, so who knows.)

The traditional old big bores are low pressure cartridges and the rifles are very heavy. My .577 NE is about 12 lbs. The recoil is a big push not a snappy "kick". I don't know if that is better or not, But you make a interesting point. Thanks for the post.

Mark458 said:

I agree that bigger is better as long as you shoot it well. What is the minimum caliber you feel comfortable hunting buffalo with?

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Thanks for the good post.
I am a ".50 cal is the minimum" kind of a guy. I have heard of and seen a .416 disappoint with regular bullets. I have couple of African PH pals that swear by the 416 Rigby and these two guy know what they are doing. If I was recoil sensitive I would go 416 or 458 with a "tank" or gill type muzzle brake. I make a tank type muzzle brake for myself that is a copy of the Alexander Arms model. ( I think that is what it is called.) People at the range shooting beside me say that it is not too noisy.)

Speaking of noise, everyone who is around shooting is supposed to wear ear protection. That includes PH's in the field. The electronic muffs are affordable work perfectly now. If people don't wear them them, then that's on them. Enough said!

If you get a newer loading book you will see that the 45-70, 300gr. CEB Raptor will happily reach 2,400 fps , faster if you extend the throat and make some more room for more powder by seating the bullet a bit shallower. (This really works in a single shot, but that is another story.)
You can also push the 45-70, 400 gr CEB Raptor to 2,000 fps. These loads surpass the performance of the 450-400, .416 cal bullet in standard loading which many people think is great buffalo medicine.

My short answer is that you can kill cape buffalo well with a 400 grain .458 bullet at 2,000 fps, IF it is a first class bullet. If you choose to shoot poor bullets then this conversation is not necessary.
HAPPY HUNTING.

Recoil, and lots of it.

They might have a place. Dispatching whales. Truly stopping elephants. Scratching an itch to shoot the biggest and badest. Beyond that, I think their usefulness is pretty limited.

As useful tools, probably a small percentage of people can effectively wield them better than something in the .4xx class. Little bullets in the right place always trump big bullets in the wrong place.

I love the comments on this forum that people who are recoil-sensitive should stick to .416s and such. Where I grew up, the phrase "recoil sensitive" was usually applied to people who couldn't manage a .30-06. Truly, I love it. Cracks me up.