Double Rifle caliber question for those with first hand knowledge

[Wishfulthinker580]

Penetration Index & Energy

Penetration Index & Energy See A.B.Alphin, Any Shot You Want, On Target Press 1996 About Penetration Index The penetration index is calculated by dividing kinetic energy with the frontal area of the bullet and multiplying the result by the sectional density, as described by A. Alphin. If...

www.africahunting.com

Check out this very interesting chart. It does actually show a 30-06 has not only better penetration than a 500NE, but considerably more. And a 375 H&H has more yet (with heavy for caliber bullets) and is in fact near the top of the range.

I remember looking at this chart before my elephant hunt. I had just purchased a 505 Gibbs, owned a 375 H&H, and ended up buying a 416 Rem Mag which i ultimately shot my elephant with. I did take the 375 with, and left the 505 home for two reasons. 1. It was having feeding issues occasionally, especially when the bolt was cycled very fast. 2. The thing is just simply heavy to carry.

The particular 416 i took actually weighs less than that 375 of the same make and model. And in my case at least, elephant was hunted with feet. Much strenuous walking through difficult terrain. So to me at least, every extra ounce I was carrying was important. And it was mostly HOT. So an extra pound of rifle meant one less bottle of water. And that one extra bottle of water became very important late in the afternoon which happened to be when we often caught up and approached elephants.

Notice the really big heavy hitters are not even in the acceptable range on penetration for a frontal head shot on elephant. I'm talking .577 NE, .600 and 700.

Now Justin way at the bottom you can see the clear choice for your elephant hunt would be a 50 BMG.

Seriously, pretty much all of the double rifle calibers are at best only in the "Just Suitable" category or if tuned just right with heavy bullets can eek barely into the "Well Suited" category and none come even close to the "Very Reliable" or "Top Values" that the 375 fits right into, as does a 416 rem mag or Rigby. Of note is the 416/500NE that @Red Leg mentioned is likely one of the few Double Rifle cartridges that might fare well if it was included on this chart.

Now I realize, as does the author of that chart, that charts and indexes do not kill elephants.

I would like to also point out a couple simple points that I'm sure all parties of this discussion are aware, but points worth making and to Joe's point on accuracy and the main point on penetration.

Bullet diameter. The greater the caliber, the greater the frontal area of the bullet. This is why starting at about .474, or even .423 in the case of the 404 Jeffrey, penetration starts to fall off. Increased frontal area needs to be overcome with weight and speed. Those two things create recoil. And no matter what kind of He Man you are, at some point recoil reduces accuracy. It can and is typically managed by rifle weight. But for the type of elephant hunt many of us dream of, you will be walking them down. You will need water. You get the point.

I also want to point out something else about frontal area of a bullet. @Royal27 heart shot his elephant with a 458 Lott. It ran for something like 13 hours and he finished it with a frontal brain shot. Upon skinning it out, the heart had a nice groove put in it by the .458 bullet but it had failed to opened the heart up to rapid blood loss. Someone mentioned he should have bored his 458 out to 470 Capstick and possibly the extra diameter would have opened up the heart....

I would contend that if the tsetse fly who shit on Royal's left shoulder had instead relieved itself on his right shoulder it might have also caused Royal to lean just enough to one side to make that shot penetrate the heart

In my case, I took a side brain shot. I was told to shoot 3" behind the ear hole. I should have shot 3" ahead. In defense of my PH, he was more concerned about the second elephant coming through a thicket to stomp us than watching the exact angle presented at my shot. My bullet clipped the vertebrae connected to the skull and knock the elephant unconscious. I got a second shot in between the shoulder blades and a 3rd into the top of the head within a few seconds and it was all over. Would a 300 grain 375 bullet have had the shock value to knock that bull down? I don't know. The 400 grain i was shooting did. Had I been shooting a double I just don't know. Mine is very accurate but not close to my good bolt guns.

My point being that Joe is of course absolutely correct on the importance of shot placement being much more important than caliber. However there is something to be said about a heavier bullet. Not sure what I might use on a second elephant hunt?

However if I get into a public discussion about it, I would certainly try to be polite and open minded to well intentioned answers to my questions.

It’s hard to view an answer as wholly well intentioned if it ends on a note of condescension.

Not talking about your post.

 

[Backyardsniper]

Penetration Index & Energy

Penetration Index & Energy See A.B.Alphin, Any Shot You Want, On Target Press 1996 About Penetration Index The penetration index is calculated by dividing kinetic energy with the frontal area of the bullet and multiplying the result by the sectional density, as described by A. Alphin. If...

www.africahunting.com

Check out this very interesting chart. It does actually show a 30-06 has not only better penetration than a 500NE, but considerably more. And a 375 H&H has more yet (with heavy for caliber bullets) and is in fact near the top of the range.

I remember looking at this chart before my elephant hunt. I had just purchased a 505 Gibbs, owned a 375 H&H, and ended up buying a 416 Rem Mag which i ultimately shot my elephant with. I did take the 375 with, and left the 505 home for two reasons. 1. It was having feeding issues occasionally, especially when the bolt was cycled very fast. 2. The thing is just simply heavy to carry.

The particular 416 i took actually weighs less than that 375 of the same make and model. And in my case at least, elephant was hunted with feet. Much strenuous walking through difficult terrain. So to me at least, every extra ounce I was carrying was important. And it was mostly HOT. So an extra pound of rifle meant one less bottle of water. And that one extra bottle of water became very important late in the afternoon which happened to be when we often caught up and approached elephants.

Notice the really big heavy hitters are not even in the acceptable range on penetration for a frontal head shot on elephant. I'm talking .577 NE, .600 and 700.

Now Justin way at the bottom you can see the clear choice for your elephant hunt would be a 50 BMG.

Seriously, pretty much all of the double rifle calibers are at best only in the "Just Suitable" category or if tuned just right with heavy bullets can eek barely into the "Well Suited" category and none come even close to the "Very Reliable" or "Top Values" that the 375 fits right into, as does a 416 rem mag or Rigby. Of note is the 416/500NE that @Red Leg mentioned is likely one of the few Double Rifle cartridges that might fare well if it was included on this chart.

Now I realize, as does the author of that chart, that charts and indexes do not kill elephants.

I would like to also point out a couple simple points that I'm sure all parties of this discussion are aware, but points worth making and to Joe's point on accuracy and the main point on penetration.

Bullet diameter. The greater the caliber, the greater the frontal area of the bullet. This is why starting at about .474, or even .423 in the case of the 404 Jeffrey, penetration starts to fall off. Increased frontal area needs to be overcome with weight and speed. Those two things create recoil. And no matter what kind of He Man you are, at some point recoil reduces accuracy. It can and is typically managed by rifle weight. But for the type of elephant hunt many of us dream of, you will be walking them down. You will need water. You get the point.

I also want to point out something else about frontal area of a bullet. @Royal27 heart shot his elephant with a 458 Lott. It ran for something like 13 hours and he finished it with a frontal brain shot. Upon skinning it out, the heart had a nice groove put in it by the .458 bullet but it had failed to opened the heart up to rapid blood loss. Someone mentioned he should have bored his 458 out to 470 Capstick and possibly the extra diameter would have opened up the heart....

I would contend that if the tsetse fly who shit on Royal's left shoulder had instead relieved itself on his right shoulder it might have also caused Royal to lean just enough to one side to make that shot penetrate the heart

In my case, I took a side brain shot. I was told to shoot 3" behind the ear hole. I should have shot 3" ahead. In defense of my PH, he was more concerned about the second elephant coming through a thicket to stomp us than watching the exact angle presented at my shot. My bullet clipped the vertebrae connected to the skull and knock the elephant unconscious. I got a second shot in between the shoulder blades and a 3rd into the top of the head within a few seconds and it was all over. Would a 300 grain 375 bullet have had the shock value to knock that bull down? I don't know. The 400 grain i was shooting did. Had I been shooting a double I just don't know. Mine is very accurate but not close to my good bolt guns.

My point being that Joe is of course absolutely correct on the importance of shot placement being much more important than caliber. However there is something to be said about a heavier bullet. Not sure what I might use on a second elephant hunt?

However if I get into a public discussion about it, I would certainly try to be polite and open minded to well intentioned answers to my questions.

I appreciate the reply and you are correct on the penetration issue. I think the 416 is the perfect formula for penetration. Unless as you said you drive a heavier bullet to speeds that would up the recoil to a level that is simply not tolerable. The 460 is a good example. With the ability to load it at so many different levels I have tested most of them and the difference between a 2150fps load with a 500 grain and a 2300fps with a 500 grain is noticable, take it up to 2500 though and the ability to produce any kind of repeatable accuracy goes out the window without a muzzle brake which is not really acceptable in this kind of hunting. As to Joe, I don't doubt that his information is accurate, my issue is his presentation. Repeated presentation. Perhaps its just me, but I doubt it, as I have chatted with other members and I don't seem to be the only one that gets that vibe. None the less, I do appreciate the information offered. Your post makes me even more interested in the 500/416 which would be nice since I like the 416 rigby so much anyway and I would be able to purchase projectiles in bulk. My main interest though was just whether anyone had noticed a significant difference on impact between those three most popular it seems of big double rifle calibers.

 

[Rubberhead]

Knowing that you used a .460 WM on a whitetail makes me want to suggest you go straight to the .700 NE. But, I don't have firsthand knowledge so I won't charge you the normal 2¢ rate...

 

[VertigoBE]

Although I have no experience to talk about, reading these different opinions on for example .375 v 500 I believe that perhaps it will depend much more on the exact shot to be taken?

For a brain shot, pure penetration and shot placement is needed and there the lower the recoil and thus better shot placement with a 375 is ideal, while for a body shot/running away or stopping a charge, a larger caliber is probably more appropriate as the target area is much larger, penetration is less important while pure destruction and shock is more important, so a 450 and up is going to be a better choice.

The 416 with heavy for caliber bullets being perhaps the crossover between the two?

In any case, I’m also looking to see if would use a double in .375 or a bolt action in 416 for elephant hunting.

 

[Backyardsniper]

Knowing that you used a .460 WM on a whitetail makes me want to suggest you go straight to the .700 NE. But, I don't have firsthand knowledge so I won't charge you the normal 2¢ rate...

while the 460 isn't my first choice as a whitetail rifle while I had one on hand I thought, nothing better than some actual field trial. Ammo is a little cost prohibitive for practice with the 700. Ha ha. I do really love big boomers. Some one asked me once, why do you have a 338 lapua, you don't need that to kill..xyz. My response was the same for it as it is for the 460 and 500 jeffrey, because I smile everytime I pull the trigger.

 

[Backyardsniper]

Although I have no experience to talk about, reading these different opinions on for example .375 v 500 I believe that perhaps it will depend much more on the exact shot to be taken?

For a brain shot, pure penetration and shot placement is needed and there the lower the recoil and thus better shot placement with a 375 is ideal, while for a body shot/running away or stopping a charge, a larger caliber is probably more appropriate as the target area is much larger, penetration is less important while pure destruction and shock is more important, so a 450 and up is going to be a better choice.

The 416 with heavy for caliber bullets being perhaps the crossover between the two?

In any case, I’m also looking to see if would use a double in .375 or a bolt action in 416 for elephant hunting.

I have a 416 and I like it a lot, it does have the ability for surgical accuracy and you can bet that after finishing load development and practicing if the 500 Jeffrey or should I say, me with the 500 jeffrey, is not producing what I consider acceptable accuracy then I will not hesitate to use the 416 with the 400 grain CEB. It is definitely not to be taken lightly.

 

[ActionBob]

I appreciate the reply and you are correct on the penetration issue. I think the 416 is the perfect formula for penetration. Unless as you said you drive a heavier bullet to speeds that would up the recoil to a level that is simply not tolerable. The 460 is a good example. With the ability to load it at so many different levels I have tested most of them and the difference between a 2150fps load with a 500 grain and a 2300fps with a 500 grain is noticable, take it up to 2500 though and the ability to produce any kind of repeatable accuracy goes out the window without a muzzle brake which is not really acceptable in this kind of hunting. As to Joe, I don't doubt that his information is accurate, my issue is his presentation. Repeated presentation. Perhaps its just me, but I doubt it, as I have chatted with other members and I don't seem to be the only one that gets that vibe. None the less, I do appreciate the information offered. Your post makes me even more interested in the 500/416 which would be nice since I like the 416 rigby so much anyway and I would be able to purchase projectiles in bulk. My main interest though was just whether anyone had noticed a significant difference on impact between those three most popular it seems of big double rifle calibers.

As I stated, a chart doesn't kill animals. It is however very interesting and I think quite telling. If you have not looked it over, it's worth a few minutes. 416's seem to be great balance bring a lot to the table

As to Joe, I've had several conversations with him in person as well as PM's and feel honored to call him a friend. Although I'm aware of his mitary background, I don't have that type of background but can relate much more to his civilian career experience leading a team. From what I know of the man, you could not be farther off in your generalization. I gather his great success in the private sector was garnered through empowerment of his team. There is a very caring, intellegent, experienced, practical, thoughtful, and good natured head riding on Joe's shoulders and this Forum is much better with his involvement.

Things tend to get out of hand with black and white text or type vs. personal communication where body language and tone often say as much or more than words. You just don't get that in text.

 

[AZDAVE]

Well as mentioned every animal has that undefinable will to live. I shot my buffalo with a 450NE double. 500gr Aframe at 2160fps first shot through the heart at 22 yards, second shot 28 yards through the lungs, third shot right rear with 480gr CEB solid at 72 yards went through the liver lung and out the front. He ran another 150 Yards and turned around looked at us before going down. All three shots would have killed him, he just didn't know he was dead yet.

A friend made a bad shot with a 375 and in the follow up there was a very marked difference in the way the buffalo reacted to being hit with another 375 and the two from the PH's 470.

I have shot a 500 NE several times but haven't shot anything with one besides paper and steel. So will let the PH's that carry one answer on the 500 NE

In 2018 I shot my giraffe with a 577 BPE (650 gr woodleigh 1820fps) and my PH backed up with his 470. One shot from each of us through the heart got about the same physical reaction and it coverd 50 yards before dropping.

Last year I backed up a friend on a elephant. He was using a 416REM,the shots were frontal brain shots. His first shot was just above the brain, as the head swung back our direction I shot with a 500 Jeff, 570gr solid at 2300fps and my shot went just under the brain but stunned the elephant and it fell to the side like a drunken sailor. As he was regaining his feet my buddy made the finishing shot. Again in the video there was a big difference in how the animal reacted to the larger round.

On the other end in the same hunt as my buffalo I took my eland with a 9.3 double 300gr aframe at 2370fps. Hit him perfect in the shoulder at 75 yards. He wobbled 5 yards out and 5 yards back and dropped in the spot H shot him facing the opposite direction.


Based on your shooting big bores well already. Just use your 500 Jeff and go have fun. If you are going to get a double opt for the 450/470/500 you get the best deal on and comes with ammo.

2023 2nd 2024 I am hunting DG with my 500/416 double and will bring the 505 Gibbs as backup.

 

[Backyardsniper]

Well as mentioned every animal has that undefinable will to live. I shot my buffalo with a 450NE double. 500gr Aframe at 2160fps first shot through the heart at 22 yards, second shot 28 yards through the lungs, third shot right rear with 480gr CEB solid at 72 yards went through the liver lung and out the front. He ran another 150 Yards and turned around looked at us before going down. All three shots would have killed him, he just didn't know he was dead yet.

A friend made a bad shot with a 375 and in the follow up there was a very marked difference in the way the buffalo reacted to being hit with another 375 and the two from the PH's 470.

I have shot a 500 NE several times but haven't shot anything with one besides paper and steel. So will let the PH's that carry one answer on the 500 NE

In 2018 I shot my giraffe with a 577 BPE (650 gr woodleigh 1820fps) and my PH backed up with his 470. One shot from each of us through the heart got about the same physical reaction and it coverd 50 yards before dropping.

Last year I backed up a friend on a elephant. He was using a 416REM,the shots were frontal brain shots. His first shot was just above the brain, as the head swung back our direction I shot with a 500 Jeff, 570gr solid at 2300fps and my shot went just under the brain but stunned the elephant and it fell to the side like a drunken sailor. As he was regaining his feet my buddy made the finishing shot. Again in the video there was a big difference in how the animal reacted to the larger round.

On the other end in the same hunt as my buffalo I took my eland with a 9.3 double 300gr aframe at 2370fps. Hit him perfect in the shoulder at 75 yards. He wobbled 5 yards out and 5 yards back and dropped in the spot H shot him facing the opposite direction.


Based on your shooting big bores well already. Just use your 500 Jeff and go have fun. If you are going to get a double opt for the 450/470/500 you get the best deal on and comes with ammo.

2023 2nd 2024 I am hunting DG with my 500/416 double and will bring the 505 Gibbs as backup.

That is good info. I plan to put some serious practice in with the 500 Jeff and see what kind of accuracy I can wring out of it. It is the exact same rifle as my 416, a Sako Brown Bear, and the 416 is a real shooter. Your info on the CEB is also interesting. I have heard a lot of good things on those and I plan to use them myself, it also doesn't hurt that they are pretty readily available and thier customer service rep Nikki is great. She helped me out with a lost order a whe ago and you could not ask for a more helpful rep. The fact you shot a buffalo from the rear with the 450 and it transited that much buffalo and made it to the liver and lungs is impressive. I am currently working on the 510's in the Jeffrey and I think will settle in the ballpark of 2300+/-fps. I have the 475 Raptors to go along with them and also some 570 A Frames and some 570 hornady DGS to test. I bought the hornady mostly for range practice, but being a solid I would think they would work in a pinch.

 

[Philip Glass]

I have always been a fan of large caliber weapons, in all situations, for no reason other than I just like big guns. I shot a whitetail with a 460 weatherby last year so there's that. I have a 500 Jeffrey that is going to Zim with me next year for a buffalo and tuskless hunt. I am taking a 416 rigby as a back up. I'm not going to say recoil is not an issue because recoil is real and a heavy recoiling rifle takes a lot of practice to shoot well. Fortunately I reload and I can literally step out of my garage and shoot and also have a nice range right down the road so I get to do a lot of practicing.
So to the point, for you guys who have shot and also have seen animals shot with varying DR calibers, and I'm mostly looking at 450NE, 470NE, and 500NE, have you seen a quantifiable difference in the impact on an animal between those 3 calibers? It seems 450 is super easy to get projectiles for, .458, but hard to get brass. 470 seems to be the only one that uses the .474 bullet, but may be the most popular and easiest to find factory ammo for. The 500 shares the same .510 projectile with the Jeffrey that I already own and once I get brass for it then the higher cost and lower availability of factory ammo isn't really an issue.
Main question then, is there any real significant difference in impact on game between these 3 calibers? Is thier any other real benefit to any of these three or is it more just a matter of find the gun you like and any of those calibers will get the job done just the same?

The answer to your question is no in a normal hunting scenario. A charge is different and yes the bigger the better.

 

[zephyr]

I have shot Cape Buff and Tuskless with my 1903 Gibbs in 450NE, I have shot Cape Buff with my 400H&H and a Bunch of Asiatic Buff with my 458 Lott.. All with CEB Bullets solids and Raptors..
All of the mid 40's NE cartridges as mentioned earlier perform the same 480-500gr bullet 2150fpa 5000'lbs of energy .... of the menitoned 40's the The 450 and 450#2 NE are delights to carry with slimmer barrels and receiver.. Moving up to the 500NE is a jump in performance also weight and carryability but such a cool caliber... With CEB bullets Raptors and Solids it will be a killing machine .....
For what it is worth with the aforementioned rifles in my safe I'm headed to Zim in August toting a custom 505 Gibbs 11lbs empty iron sights only for Buff and Tuskless
Keep us up to date on your decision... the looking process is half the fun..

 

[ActionBob]

@Backyardsniper I would like to share a couple other scenarios with you regarding shooting dangerous game and double rifles. I don't shoot my double rifles with anywhere near the precision accuracy that I can my bolt guns. I honestly doubt I ever will.

We all dream of being presented with and making the perfect one shot kill with a brain shot on elephant or a perfect high heart/lung shot on a buffalo. However that is not always an option presented. And as much as we want to tell ourselves that we wait for that perfect shot presentation, it does not always come. We pay a lot of money, travel a long ways, burn up vacation time... And you never know just how the hunting will go and your PH also is under pressure to deliver and may ask if you can make a shot at a difficult angle or thread a bullet through a small opening. Or take a shot in severely waning light.

For those shots you just cannot beat an accurate bolt gun with a good scope. Now there are guys who can make those shots with a double but they are few and far between. They also may have a scoped double with them. (As in two rifles) And they have years of practice and practical hunting with their doubles.

I had my 470 double with to Tanzania and carried it most of the hunt and for sure when pursuing buffalo. Also has a tracker carrying my wife's 404 Jeffrey which is pushing 12 pounds but shoots like a dream with very little recoil and well under 1" patterns. The only shot I had on a buffalo was to thread through a group and shoot a bull behind the ear. So swapped guns and shot him with that scoped 404. It can happen with elephant also.

 

[Wishfulthinker580]

@Backyardsniper I would like to share a couple other scenarios with you regarding shooting dangerous game and double rifles. I don't shoot my double rifles with anywhere near the precision accuracy that I can my bolt guns. I honestly doubt I ever will.

We all dream of being presented with and making the perfect one shot kill with a brain shot on elephant or a perfect high heart/lung shot on a buffalo. However that is not always an option presented. And as much as we want to tell ourselves that we wait for that perfect shot presentation, it does not always come. We pay a lot of money, travel a long ways, burn up vacation time... And you never know just how the hunting will go and your PH also is under pressure to deliver and may ask if you can make a shot at a difficult angle or thread a bullet through a small opening. Or take a shot in severely waning light.

For those shots you just cannot beat an accurate bolt gun with a good scope. Now there are guys who can make those shots with a double but they are few and far between. They also may have a scoped double with them. (As in two rifles) And they have years of practice and practical hunting with their doubles.

I had my 470 double with to Tanzania and carried it most of the hunt and for sure when pursuing buffalo. Also has a tracker carrying my wife's 404 Jeffrey which is pushing 12 pounds but shoots like a dream with very little recoil and well under 1" patterns. The only shot I had on a buffalo was to thread through a group and shoot a bull behind the ear. So swapped guns and shot him with that scoped 404. It can happen with elephant also.

Perfectly reasoned argument and I agree to an extent, however, it kinda puts the success of the hunt, which in this case is killing an animal, above the hunt itself IMHO. Of course we all want to be successful in that respect otherwise we would only go on photographic “safaris” but that’s also the same motivation, when amplified, that leads to unethical hunting operations, choices and methods.

If everyone used that logic there probably wouldn’t be any bow hunters (open sight hunters etc..) because in those disciplines one has to accept their inherent limitations and come to terms with the fact that you may not succeed in taking your animal (talking spot and stalk). I realize we’re talking DG here but I contend that my reasoning applies across the board. In short, I say if the cartridge is capable of ethically taking the intended game animal, the hunter has practiced a sufficient amount with his firearm, the hunter is disciplined enough not to take a shot he knows he can’t make, he has accepted the limitations of his chosen platform, he is honest with himself about his capabilities and he can accept the fact that he may go home empty handed then he should go for it.

He is bringing a scoped 416 for a backup I believe so my argument is a bit of a moot point and his hunt could easily turn out just like yours.

 

[Inline6]

@Backyardsniper I would like to share a couple other scenarios with you regarding shooting dangerous game and double rifles. I don't shoot my double rifles with anywhere near the precision accuracy that I can my bolt guns. I honestly doubt I ever will.

We all dream of being presented with and making the perfect one shot kill with a brain shot on elephant or a perfect high heart/lung shot on a buffalo. However that is not always an option presented. And as much as we want to tell ourselves that we wait for that perfect shot presentation, it does not always come. We pay a lot of money, travel a long ways, burn up vacation time... And you never know just how the hunting will go and your PH also is under pressure to deliver and may ask if you can make a shot at a difficult angle or thread a bullet through a small opening. Or take a shot in severely waning light.

For those shots you just cannot beat an accurate bolt gun with a good scope. Now there are guys who can make those shots with a double but they are few and far between. They also may have a scoped double with them. (As in two rifles) And they have years of practice and practical hunting with their doubles.

I had my 470 double with to Tanzania and carried it most of the hunt and for sure when pursuing buffalo. Also has a tracker carrying my wife's 404 Jeffrey which is pushing 12 pounds but shoots like a dream with very little recoil and well under 1" patterns. The only shot I had on a buffalo was to thread through a group and shoot a bull behind the ear. So swapped guns and shot him with that scoped 404. It can happen with elephant also.

That is my biggest hold back on buying a double.

 

[ActionBob]

Perfectly reasoned argument and I agree to an extent, however, it kinda puts the success of the hunt, which in this case is killing an animal, above the hunt itself IMHO. Of course we all want to be successful in that respect otherwise we would only go on photographic “safaris” but that’s also the same motivation, when amplified, that leads to unethical hunting operations, choices and methods.

If everyone used that logic there probably wouldn’t be any bow hunters (open sight hunters etc..) because in those disciplines one has to accept their inherent limitations and come to terms with the fact that you may not succeed in taking your animal (talking spot and stalk). I realize we’re talking DG here but I contend that my reasoning applies across the board. In short, I say if the cartridge is capable of ethically taking the intended game animal, the hunter has practiced a sufficient amount with his firearm, the hunter is disciplined enough not to take a shot he knows he can’t make, he has accepted the limitations of his chosen platform, he is honest with himself about his capabilities and he can accept the fact that he may go home empty handed then he should go for it.

He is bringing a scoped 416 for a backup I believe so my argument is a bit of a moot point and his hunt could easily turn out just like yours.

Well there were 4 buffalo on quota and only got 1. Desperately needed bait for leopard, lion and hyena. Buffalo hunting in this area is normally pretty straight forward. It's almost a million acres of pure wilderness. There was excessive rain so no real concentration of animals. My wife passed out from heat stroke on top of a mountain. I'm told I dropped my rather valuable double to catch her but she still injured a hip. It was all a blur at that point. It was as close to calling for a helicopter as you can get without actually calling it. Took 14 hours to get her back to camp. About 2 or 3 of those on the truck. We had a fire started and really thought we'd be spending the night surrounded by elephant, lions, leopards, buffalo and hyena. It was a full bag 21 day hunt. We fell far short of taking every animal we wanted but took something like 17 animals. About 50 between 3 PH's in camp.

Is shooting a buffalo behind the ear with a 404 Jeffrey way out in the wilds of Tanzania not a successful hunt in your World? Or somehow lessened of a hunt because it was with a scoped rifle?

 

[Hunter-Habib]

.375 Holland & Holland Magnum will kill Cape buffalo and elephant just fine.

Now, onto the question of impact difference between the three calibers you mentioned. .500 Nitro Express (570Gr bullets at 2150 fps) has better sectional density than .470 Nitro Express (500Gr bullets at 2150fps). One of my white hunters in Botswana mentioned that the .500 Nitro Express will achieve better penetration than the .470 Nitro Express at acute angles (assuming that both are loaded to 2150fps with properly constructed bullets) and also deliver greater shock to the central nervous system of an elephant or cape buffalo. He uses a Merkel 140AE in .500 Nitro Express as his backup rifle. For elephant, he’ll use nothing but Barnes Banded Solids. For everything else, he’ll use Barnes TSX. He used to own a Manton & Co. boxlock ejector in .470 Nitro Express, previously.

This is all of course a matter of relativity. The .470 Nitro Express is an excellent caliber in it’s own right.

 

[Wishfulthinker580]

Well there were 4 buffalo on quota and only got 1. Desperately needed bait for leopard, lion and hyena. Buffalo hunting in this area is normally pretty straight forward. It's almost a million acres of pure wilderness. There was excessive rain so no real concentration of animals. My wife passed out from heat stroke on top of a mountain. I'm told I dropped my rather valuable double to catch her but she still injured a hip. It was all a blur at that point. It was as close to calling for a helicopter as you can get without actually calling it. Took 14 hours to get her back to camp. About 2 or 3 of those on the truck. We had a fire started and really thought we'd be spending the night surrounded by elephant, lions, leopards, buffalo and hyena. It was a full bag 21 day hunt. We fell far short of taking every animal we wanted but took something like 17 animals. About 50 between 3 PH's in camp.

Is shooting a buffalo behind the ear with a 404 Jeffrey way out in the wilds of Tanzania not a successful hunt in your World? Or somehow lessened of a hunt because it was with a scoped rifle?

That genuinely sounds like a fantastic safari minus the heat stroke and physical injury of course and I’m obviously sincerely glad everything worked out.

I’m aware of your rather valuable double and the incident where you dropped it sort of falls in with what I’m talking about. Are you going to refrain from taking it in the future for fear of damaging it and relegate it to safe Queendom? Similar to some members deciding to only take synthetic stocked rifles with relatively impervious coatings rather than risk harming a fine rifle. These matters enter the realm of subjectivity after a certain point and no matter how much one goes on about the perceived practicality of a certain decision that’s not going to change anything.

Concerning the last bit of your post, I guess you misunderstood me or I wasn’t clear. Of course that’s a successful hunt and no one in their right mind would argue other wise.

What I intended to be understood as saying is that if a person wants to take a double and only a double out of nostalgia, romanticism, tradition and love of history, and can operate it competently and realizes the possible consequences of that decision and has accepted them then by all means they should go for it. A person can come home empty handed and still have had a great hunt.

 

[ActionBob]

That genuinely sounds like a fantastic safari minus the heat stroke and physical injury of course and I’m obviously sincerely glad everything worked out.

I’m aware of your rather valuable double and the incident where you dropped it sort of falls in with what I’m talking about. Are you going to refrain from taking it in the future for fear of damaging it and relegate it to safe Queendom? Similar to some members deciding to only take synthetic stocked rifles with relatively impervious coatings rather than risk harming a fine rifle. These matters enter the realm of subjectivity after a certain point and no matter how much one goes on about the perceived practicality of a certain decision that’s not going to change anything.

Concerning the last bit of your post, I guess you misunderstood me or I wasn’t clear. Of course that’s a successful hunt and no one in their right mind would argue other wise.

What I intended to be understood as saying is that if a person wants to take a double and only a double out of nostalgia, romanticism, tradition and love of history, and can operate it competently and realizes the possible consequences of that decision and has accepted them then by all means they should go for it. A person can come home empty handed and still have had a great hunt.

I will not leave any rifle home if I want to hunt with it. I have a 110 year old 450 NE no. 2 I'd love to take.... So very possible that 470 may stay home from the next trip.. The Rigby we took really took a beating, especially one day the camp staff loaded it in the rack the wrong way and it got all scuffed up (inside the soft case). That rifle will hunt Africa many more times and someday in the future get refinished. I have a Holland & Holland Royal I plan to take one day. I hate taking anything synthetic to Africa although I will to Alaska or into the mountains.

But you partially make a great point about operating any rifle. The OP has tickets booked for his first hunt. Perhaps I'm misinterpreting his intent but to still be shopping for a double and then to train with not only a new rifle but a different operating system not to mention development of loads. Even to aquire components..... Seems like a lot to accomplish vs. taking a familiar rifle.

You are right though. Everyone should do it the way that they want to.

 

[Backyardsniper]

I will not leave any rifle home if I want to hunt with it. I have a 110 year old 450 NE no. 2 I'd love to take.... So very possible that 470 may stay home from the next trip.. The Rigby we took really took a beating, especially one day the camp staff loaded it in the rack the wrong way and it got all scuffed up (inside the soft case). That rifle will hunt Africa many more times and someday in the future get refinished. I have a Holland & Holland Royal I plan to take one day. I hate taking anything synthetic to Africa although I will to Alaska or into the mountains.

But you partially make a great point about operating any rifle. The OP has tickets booked for his first hunt. Perhaps I'm misinterpreting his intent but to still be shopping for a double and then to train with not only a new rifle but a different operating system not to mention development of loads. Even to aquire components..... Seems like a lot to accomplish vs. taking a familiar rifle.

You are right though. Everyone should do it the way that they want to.

The double won't be for this trip. This is R&D for a rifle to be purchased for future hunts. This trip will be a 500 Jeff bolt gun with a 416 rigby as well. Both the same rifle just in different calibers. The double is for future plans, provided I ever actually save up enough money. LOL

 

[zephyr]

Is the 500 scoped??