.416 vs .458: Just how tough are Nilgai?

[Sarg]

I think Introductions/reintroduction is very common even in Africa, most likely Ok in the Congo, CAR, but then I remember a fenced area in Gabon & reintroduction to.
Zimbabwe has many many fenced areas & reintroduction all over, lots of Zim doesn't have suitable big game habitat it is only in certain areas .

After the Wars Mozambique was devoid of most big game & had Buffalo & lions reintroduced from South Africa, SA may still be topping up Lions ?

Most people don't know what they don't know & that's fine, just go, hunt, enjoy the hunts & animals/scenery, just do it to the ethics that suit you & you are comfortable with .

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

@Dwight Beagle
That is a very enviable Axis deer . Here is one of my largest specimens .
View attachment 400836

Axis deer are native to our Sundarban mangrove forests . In 1978 , President Ziaur Rahman released six pairs of these animals into Monpura ( an isolated region in the southern point of our country ) . Today , there are thousands of them in the region ( thanks to having no natural predator ) and are quite a popular delicacy amongst local hunters . I hunt three of them every year .

I can also seen countless Axis deer in my second home in Texas . However , I prefer hunting whitetail deer and mule deer whenever I visit the United States ( once every alternate year ) , but that is only because of how routinely I hunt Axis deer in Bangladesh. Axis deer feed on gooseberry plants in Bangladesh. Do they feed on the same in the United States ?

@Professor Mawla
We to have numerous axis/chital deer in Australia that are exceptional specimens. All deer are non native and introduced species.
Unfortunately in some areas the population has grown so large that many of the species are regarded as a pest animal. These include the majestic sambar and the fallow. Even in my old home area where there were never any deer we now have free range fallow.
A lot of our deer were the result of failed venison farming that resulted in deer just being let loose when the business went arse up.
I'm not complaining as it has given us more hunting opportunities but unfortunately they are now a problem in some areas.
Bob

 

[Inline6]

@rookhawk
I could not agree more with your excellent assessment . There are countless Hindus who make great hunters and love firearms ownership and meat eating . They have virtually all immigrated to countries where hunting and firearms ownership is legal . The kind of Hindus who have unfortunately come to represent the India that we know today , are actually a product of Indira Gandhi’s Naxite movement in the early 1970s . The anti hunting / anti meat eating / anti firearms ownership sentiments did not spread across India overnight . The kind of people who funded the Indira Gandhi campaign have used the last five decades to completely indoctrinate India’s youth against hunting and firearms ownership and meat eating .

Unfortunately this story is reading of what is happening in America...

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

@Professor Mawla this is so true. I find that most of my Indian hunting friends are either Sikh or Muslim, more practical views on the consumption of meat and hunting in general. However, it is interesting that there are a few (and growing) American-Indian Hindus that are getting into hunting and fishing over here. A few members of this forum appear to have Hindu names and do indeed hunt as well. Times are changing. As you know, Hindus anti-gun, anti-hunting practices are largely new phenomena even though most of them think it goes back millennia. Pre-partition India was a hunter's paradise and there were more than a few Brahman's eating the forbidden fruit!

@rookhawk
I to am experiencing the same with younger Indians of Hindi, Christian and Muslim faiths being interested in hunting and actually hunting in Australia. Speaking with my neighbors India is now totally ruined by shit politics. They are now enjoying shikar times that were taken from ther forebears and enjoying it.
Bob

 

[Sarg]

@Bob Nelson 35Whelen, true story but Australia only had the smaller Chital Deer - Sambar & Hog Deer from Ceylon now Sri Lanka & not the Massive stags that can be found on the mainland, pity as I love hunting Hoggies & the Axis is one of the most beautiful of Deer species !

@Professor Mawla your Stag is a real beauty is it from India or Bangladesh ?

 

[Red Leg]

I’m not excluding free range hunts on non-native species. A free range hunt on 825k acres is a heck of a hunt no matter what the animal is. Where we differ is that I’m more in favor with an approach similar to the one we share concerning feral hogs in the US.

What constitutes a legitimate ranch to me is actually quite simple: It is one whose core focus is on the breeding and raising of livestock (cattle, sheep, goats) in an economically viable manner, one who does not participate in non traditional (in ranching terms) industries like hunting (no matter the species) and one who makes an effort to adhere to traditional practices. Also, size matters. There are many more nuances to the issue but those are the main ones.

I honestly haven’t considered Mozambique yet but I may. Definitely wild Africa. I have mainly been interested in Zim from the beginning.

I now understand, and I frankly think that is curious approach to ranching, though perhaps things are different now than I remember them in Oklahoma.

But let me simply refer to Texas. The deer, wild exotics, turkeys, and even the feral pigs are a commodity which a landowner would be foolish not to exploit in the same pastures in which he is raising his cattle. As browsers, the deer don't even really compete.

The simplest method is the lease system. In Texas, every acre of land made available to be leased for hunting is under contract as soon as it hits the market. I could lease our little bit of ground tomorrow morning if I so desired. Leases go for $20 - $50 an acre depending upon the area, property size, and game potential.

Others get into outfitting on their property, selling those animals by the inch rather than by the acre. Either works and neither interferes with the cattle business.

According to TLA, south Texas ranches can manage one cow per 15-30 acres of native pasture - West Texas requires as much as 150 acres per head (a 60K ranch around Alpine is a fairly desperate mom and pop effort). Few ranchers are going to survive on a cattle business alone. A landowner would be insane not to take advantage of the economic value of game available on his property.

 

[Deleted member 53080]

@Wishfulthinker580

I hear what you are saying and you're entitled to your preference for wild places. I'd like to remind you that truly wild, unmolested places are largely wildlife sh1th0l3s. Nature is a pretty dumpy place in most areas of the planet. Animals run unchecked, kill all the game, then die of starvation, then you have rampant infestations of small species that boom, then the predators catch back up to eat the abundant prey, and thus the 7 year or 100 year cycle continues of boom-and-bust nature.

Managed wildlife arrests that. We manage the native and non-native species providing additional feed and habitat to encourage some, eradication programs to eliminate others, culling programs to curb the growth of yet others. We install waterholes that turn migratory boom-and-bust wastelands into 365 day a year viable ecosystems that were natural crapholes. In fact, we did that not just in America but in places like Hwange National Park in Zimbabwe. It was a wasteland in 1930 with virtually no life except for rainy season migration corridor use. Today, with nearly 30 waterholes, its one of the most abundant wildlife areas in the world that holds the largest elephant population in the world. Those game species are non-native, most never lived there until the addition of water, and plants, and prey, made it a desirable full-year ecosystem.

Every ecosystem we hunt has been altered by man at some level or we are intercepting game on their way to altered ecosystems. (ambushing Montana elk on the way to the hayfields?)

You have to be proud of your hunting and that you are enjoying fair chase on your terms, but purity of species and ecosystems is a myth in 99.9% of the world. I can't see my way to condemn wild Texas Nilgai and instead go kill an Upper Michigan Whitetail. Both are stocked. Both are now abundant, managed, wildlife. Ironically, the less molested of the two is Texas as the Nilgai live in habitat that has been unaltered in many ways for millennia whereas the whitetail deer of Upper Michigan is living in mixed vegetation we created over a century of deforestation programs. In reality, elk belong in Upper Michigan and we should go exterminate all those deer in the spirit of bringing earth back into its unmolested condition.

I agree with you on the need for and the success of management. If you’ll recall in my earlier post I was speaking about farming and ranching specifically. I’m aware, even at a local level, of the transformation that can take place in an area in 2-3 generations as far as flora and fauna are concerned. You’ve got me on the UP whitetail/elk dilemma lol. At least they’re from the same continent haha. You win some and you loose some. I’ll remind you that I’m not condemning a free range hunt of any kind or even many high fence hunts just the species and nature of it I guess

 

[mdwest]

What constitutes a legitimate ranch to me is actually quite simple: It is one whose core focus is on the breeding and raising of livestock (cattle, sheep, goats) in an economically viable manner, one who does not participate in non traditional (in ranching terms) industries like hunting (no matter the species) and one who makes an effort to adhere to traditional practices. Also, size matters. There are many more nuances to the issue but those are the main ones.

Are you a rancher? Or do you know many ranchers?

A very dear friend of mine owns a cattle ranch in Virginia.. another friend owns a cattle ranch in Wyoming.. a third owns a mid sized cattle ranch in Tennessee.. and I know quite a few ranchers here in my home state of Texas.. I also happen to know a few cattle ranchers in South Africa

while every "rancher" I know absolutely engages in breeding and raising of livestock as their primary "business" on their property.. Without exception, every single one of these ranchers engages in other businesses using that same land that involves hunting...

The guys in Virginia and Tennessee both manage hunting leases on their properties and charge people to hunt deer and turkey.. and the guy in Virginia also has bears that are hunted (I should mention his ranch is on the VA/NC border and that about 300 acres of his land crosses into NC that he also leases out.. and the bear hunting there is supposed to be extremely good)..

The guy I know in Wyoming is also a licensed outfitter and guide... he maintains a lodge on his property and guides mule deer and elk hunts on his ranch during hunting season..

@Red Leg 's description of TX is spot on with my experience here.. you see a couple of different configurations.. but ALL of the cattle ranchers I know here either do hunt club/lease operations using their ranch land or do guided hunts (deer, exotics, hogs, whatever)..

And I've hunted on a couple of cattle ranches in South Africa for game animals (got the biggest warthog Ive ever seen on a property that is primarily a cattle ranch.. and also took a particularly nice wildebeest on a "cattle ranch" on a different trip)..

I think what you believe to be a "legitimate" ranch is likely an exception to the actual rule, and is most likely not what the vast majority of people that own ranches in the US believe is a "legitimate" ranch..

 

[Deleted member 53080]

The data on this topic is robust. We know exactly where whitetails were and were not. We know that whitetails were stocked around the year 500 in Curacao. We know that they were stocked in Vermont in 1890. We know that the DNA shows that most whitetails today are "Wisconsin bloodlines". We know that 4 extinct species of elk and 2 extinct species of buffalo occupied most of the terrain that whitetails now enjoy. We know exactly what the french explorers and Lewis & Clark documented. We know from the geologic record and microbial analysis what the habitat was, whether it was viable for game like deer, and if there was any evidence of their presence.

We even know that the American Pronghorn Antelope's closest living relative is the African Giraffe. Sometimes man does the transplantation, sometimes nature does it. We just do it faster.

What's truly amazing is with DNA analysis, we now know for fact that deer stocking has been happening in the Americas for at least 2000 years. White Europeans didn't come up with these ideas at a Texas bar 80 years ago.

I guess we know everything then . At the risk of being perceived as ignorant (maybe it’s too late?) I’ll have to disagree on how much is truly known and how much is an educated guess not pertaining to DNA. You’re right we didn’t come up with it, we just commercialized it and made it dirty. None of this convinces me that nilgai should be here.

 

[Professor Mawla]

@Bob Nelson 35Whelen, true story but Australia only had the smaller Chital Deer - Sambar & Hog Deer from Ceylon now Sri Lanka & not the Massive stags that can be found on the mainland, pity as I love hunting Hoggies & the Axis is one of the most beautiful of Deer species !

@Professor Mawla your Stag is a real beauty is it from India or Bangladesh ?

@Sarg
It is from Bangladesh . As I have mentioned above , hunting has been banned in India since 1972 . I do not live in India and have no intention to ever visit that place again . Thank you very much for your kind comment . Hopefully , I shall secure four finer Axis deer during this season .

 

[Red Leg]

@Sarg
It is from Bangladesh . As I have mentioned above , hunting has been banned in India since 1972 . I do not live in India and have no intention to ever visit that place again . Thank you very much for your kind comment . Hopefully , I shall secure four finer Axis deer during this season .

Lovely animal! As I am sure you have seen, we are fortunate here that our Axis can get quite large. I am curious, in their native habitat do they also vary individually with respect to antler development? Here one can find deer with hard antlers, others still in velvet, and still others that have shed all at the same time of year.

 

[Inline6]

I was once told by a rancher they shed on their birthday. In our climate south Texas I'm assuming they probably breed all year.

 

[Professor Mawla]

Lovely animal! As I am sure you have seen, we are fortunate here that our Axis can get quite large. I am curious, in their native habitat do they also vary individually with respect to antler development? Here one can find deer with hard antlers, others still in velvet, and still others that have shed all at the same time of year.

@Red Leg Sir
Thank you very much . The Axis deer in Hill Country look almost identical to the ones in Bangladesh . Our local Axis deer feed on gooseberry plants , but I am afraid that I do not know what the Axis deer in the United States feed on .

Yes , you are 100 % correct . The antlers and weight ( and even taste ) of Axis deer vary from place to place . In East Bengal , Axis deer is found in the south and southwest of the country . Originally , they are only native to the Sundarban mangrove forests in Bangladesh ( located in the southwestern edge of the country ) and until 1980 , that was the only place where you could hunt them . In 1978 , six pairs of Axis deer were released into the Monpura region in the southern belt of the country . Today , there are thousands of them and their population was spread to Shon Deap and up to the left side of Mirre Shorai .

In the Sundarban mangrove forests , our Axis deer tend to be on the smaller side and have noticeably small antlers . This is because they are always being consumed by Royal Bengal tigers . In the other places which I have mentioned however , the Axis deer can grow quite large with significantly larger antlers . This is because they have no natural predators in Monpura , Shon Deap and Mirre Shorai .

The venison from Axis deer in Monpura and Mirre Shorai can be eaten fresh . The venison from Axis deer in the Sundarban mangrove forests and Shon Deap need to be aged for at least 28 days , in order to achieve the best taste .

 

[wesheltonj]

@Red Leg Sir
Thank you very much . The Axis deer in Hill Country look almost identical to the ones in Bangladesh . Our local Axis deer feed on gooseberry plants , but I am afraid that I do not know what the Axis deer in the United States feed on . . .

Whatever they can find in mine and neighbors yards. They are pests where I live and cannot be legally hunted in the city. In the wild, they eat what the native whitetail eat plus grasses.

 

[Professor Mawla]

Whatever they can find in mine and neighbors yards. They are pests where I live and cannot be legally hunted in the city. In the wild, they eat what the native whitetail eat plus grasses.

@wesheltonj
Thank you very much . I was always very curious about that . I imagine that their venison would taste relatively coarser than the species in East Bengal .

 

[Cervus elaphus]

For how many years have the various 416s been cleanly killing game from dik diks to cape buffalo to elephants and some anon coffee shop expert comes along and says not enough for nilgai- good grief! Just consider the source, ignore it and move on. Really, no need to compare to a 458 WM just because it was brought up in the ridiculous statement about nilgai. I think nilgai are taken at all distances... if one is so inclined. Either a fenced TX hunt or feral "free range" TX hunt. What do the the largest bulls weigh... maybe 600-700 lbs.

Comparing the Nilgai to a large red deer stag or Wapiti (NZ Elk) I would have thought a .308 or 30-06 would be plenty medicine. NZ red deer stags grow up to 500lbs, and Wapiti heavier than that and a lot of those two taken with the humble .303

 

[Professor Mawla]

Comparing the Nilgai to a large red deer stag or Wapiti (NZ Elk) I would have thought a .308 or 30-06 would be plenty medicine. NZ red deer stags grow up to 500lbs, and Wapiti heavier than that and a lot of those two taken with the humble .303

@Cervus elaphus
The 220 grain Remington Core Lokt in the .30-06 Springfield can work very pleasantly on 156 kilogram Nilgai bulls . I admittedly have no experience with the 180 grain bullets or light bullets against Nilgai .

 

[Deleted member 53080]

A Cow/Calf operation alone in South Texas is not enough. You need to add hunting either by “per gun” or by the inch. Of course, if you happen to have either oil or gas wells that would make a difference.

If you are in the cattle business and are depending upon a cow/calf operation alone to earn an income you go broke in a hurry in today’s conditions. Hunting operations combined with cow/calf operations have kept many ranches from losing everything.

Are you a rancher? Or do you know many ranchers?

A very dear friend of mine owns a cattle ranch in Virginia.. another friend owns a cattle ranch in Wyoming.. a third owns a mid sized cattle ranch in Tennessee.. and I know quite a few ranchers here in my home state of Texas.. I also happen to know a few cattle ranchers in South Africa

while every "rancher" I know absolutely engages in breeding and raising of livestock as their primary "business" on their property.. Without exception, every single one of these ranchers engages in other businesses using that same land that involves hunting...

The guys in Virginia and Tennessee both manage hunting leases on their properties and charge people to hunt deer and turkey.. and the guy in Virginia also has bears that are hunted (I should mention his ranch is on the VA/NC border and that about 300 acres of his land crosses into NC that he also leases out.. and the bear hunting there is supposed to be extremely good)..

The guy I know in Wyoming is also a licensed outfitter and guide... he maintains a lodge on his property and guides mule deer and elk hunts on his ranch during hunting season..

@Red Leg 's description of TX is spot on with my experience here.. you see a couple of different configurations.. but ALL of the cattle ranchers I know here either do hunt club/lease operations using their ranch land or do guided hunts (deer, exotics, hogs, whatever)..

And I've hunted on a couple of cattle ranches in South Africa for game animals (got the biggest warthog Ive ever seen on a property that is primarily a cattle ranch.. and also took a particularly nice wildebeest on a "cattle ranch" on a different trip)..

I think what you believe to be a "legitimate" ranch is likely an exception to the actual rule, and is most likely not what the vast majority of people that own ranches in the US believe is a "legitimate" ranch..

I now understand, and I frankly think that is curious approach to ranching, though perhaps things are different now than I remember them in Oklahoma.

But let me simply refer to Texas. The deer, wild exotics, turkeys, and even the feral pigs are a commodity which a landowner would be foolish not to exploit in the same pastures in which he is raising his cattle. As browsers, the deer don't even really compete.

The simplest method is the lease system. In Texas, every acre of land made available to be leased for hunting is under contract as soon as it hits the market. I could lease our little bit of ground tomorrow morning if I so desired. Leases go for $20 - $50 an acre depending upon the area, property size, and game potential.

Others get into outfitting on their property, selling those animals by the inch rather than by the acre. Either works and neither interferes with the cattle business.

According to TLA, south Texas ranches can manage one cow per 15-30 acres of native pasture - West Texas requires as much as 150 acres per head (a 60K ranch around Alpine is a fairly desperate mom and pop effort). Few ranchers are going to survive on a cattle business alone. A landowner would be insane not to take advantage of the economic value of game available on his property.

I’m not a rancher. I do own a few cattle. I did grow up around a few real outfits. Many who own “ranches” don’t know what end of a cow eats. I will say I’m familiar with the way things operate to an extent and I concede that the sad awful truth of it is that much of what you all say is true. It is a very tough way to make a living in this day and age. Having said that there are many people big and small that do do things the right way and make it just fine every day and haven’t sacrificed their dignity by resorting to getting into the exotics game. It’s a sad state of affairs when this is the perceived norm or actual norm in many areas. Like in any walk of life: Don’t over extend yourself financially by trying to play with the big boys. Live and operate within your means. Don’t make reckless gambles. I suspect failure to abide by these rules more than anything else has led to the failure of many in the ranching business or any business for that matter. As far as the ones who do get into the exotics game they are generally viewed with contempt or as a joke and a bad one at that. It is lucrative but it comes at a cost.

 

[John Wasmuth]

You know what they say about opinions......

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

I now understand, and I frankly think that is curious approach to ranching, though perhaps things are different now than I remember them in Oklahoma.

But let me simply refer to Texas. The deer, wild exotics, turkeys, and even the feral pigs are a commodity which a landowner would be foolish not to exploit in the same pastures in which he is raising his cattle. As browsers, the deer don't even really compete.

The simplest method is the lease system. In Texas, every acre of land made available to be leased for hunting is under contract as soon as it hits the market. I could lease our little bit of ground tomorrow morning if I so desired. Leases go for $20 - $50 an acre depending upon the area, property size, and game potential.

Others get into outfitting on their property, selling those animals by the inch rather than by the acre. Either works and neither interferes with the cattle business.

According to TLA, south Texas ranches can manage one cow per 15-30 acres of native pasture - West Texas requires as much as 150 acres per head (a 60K ranch around Alpine is a fairly desperate mom and pop effort). Few ranchers are going to survive on a cattle business alone. A landowner would be insane not to take advantage of the economic value of game available on his property.

@Red Leg
Diversity of assets equals an increase in profit which is the name of the game. It doesn't matter if it's cereal crops and livestock, in some cases it's timber and livestock or in this case exotic animals and livestock.
As you have pointed out if you concentrate on just one you are soon down the road with the arse out of your pants.
Even in Australia we have mixed farming to get the most income. If one has a bad year the other can help pick up the slack.
We don't hunt with one rifle, why would a farmer just have one income stream.
During the drought here some farmers were opening up their farms for city people to get the farming experience. Without they they would have gone under.
Bob