A little food for thought - Pricing on African Hunting Safaris

[KWALATA SAFARIS]

Cris! + 10000 could not agree more, also larger properties are more expensive to run, consider a $4500 a month power bill!

I have said this many times on this forum and once again thank you for raising this very valid and good conversation.

-The more clients an outfitter can run in a camp the lower the daily rates get, I know of companies running 3 camps within 25 miles with 30 clients between the 3.
Sooner or later the chance might be that you (as a client) end up feeling like a small fish in a big pond.

Like you Cris I would rather then stay moderate in numbers, but retain a certain level of exclusivity and a upper level of professionalism.

But different strokes for different folks, I must just be honest I do not know how one can book hunts at $250 per day and operate, sooner rather than later you (as an outfitter) will feel the pinch.

-It is also important to consider that all of our over heads are different, some trackers are worth way above minimum wage more than 3 times in fact, but experiences costs money, as a outfitter and ph I would rather work with the best I possibly can afford, than with a staff drinking problem at the end of the month. Some ranches are larger than others, one outfit have more workers on staff than others the combinations are endless.

-As far as per night pricing goes on a a la carte safari, I don't see the issue, would consumers prefer to have, day of arrival and day of departure to count as one full day or per night? One fact remains the PH that picks up the client receives his full daily rate for that day.
Fuel? Other costs, transfer?
It is not a free or no cost day...

Give me suggestions and I'll discuss it. I have compt this day many times and use it as a bargaining tool often in SA, but in Moz I simply can not.

To be honest brickburn I just can't see why it's BS.

-Young ph's yes we were all up and coming at one stage, I am very much aware of that, but we do get up and coming and not always young ph's that serve the flash in the pan safaris, and delivers an absolute shocker if a safari, and the client suffers yes!

But I suffer too as I need to compete with these jokers that try their hand in this industry for 4 or 5 seasons.

But even more so the industry suffers as the word goes out that South African PH's are such and such (thereby giving the Zimbo's ammo, and they love to tar everyone with the same brush! )

Am I afraid of them as far as competition go I don't think we should be as most of us are just on a different level, it's still upsetting though.

In this industry you do get what you pay for (from an outfitters, and clients perspective)

My best always

 

[BRICKBURN]

.......

I have seen to many times on post that cheaper or discount means bad hunt or your giving something up.............. just sick of them always saying the 15,000.00 is going to be bad. ......

I get your point that it appears, on the surface, to be slagging a "discount" offer but Cautionary notes about odd pricing are well founded.
Everyone has heard the idiom; "Too good to be true".

• $22,000 dollar Elephant hunts in Botswana Tuli Block.
• Self guided hunts with zero real chance of success, but the price was right. (If you want to go for a walk and call it hunting good for you)
• Selling quota that is not even present in the concession?
• A Park border hunt vs where the Elephant live year round.

You went hunting for the experience right?!
You could have also hunted Elephant in New Jersey with the same possibility of success.

...........Do I care how he makes his money on me no I just need to know what my hunt will cost me. .......

I care how the Outfitter is making money. Selling me a cheap Elephant hunt in an area that has transient Elephant that come through in March and I am booked in September.
Should I chalk it up to "That's just hunting" or a straight up bloody fraud?
Out of ignorance, plenty of people will never know they were taken.

The price can be telling!

There are known crooks that continue to operate year after year.
Information flow is not perfect, so they will always have more victims.
The only way they can get you is through your own ignorance or hubris.

eg. "Rhino Con" listed a hunt hear a couple of years ago. I looked the guy up and determined he had no Outfitters license and was not a PH. BANNED

Sadly one of our members went through an agent and purchased an expensive hunt and is now about to set the lawyers loose.


Expend the effort to check out your agent, the outfitter, the PH and the hunter.

 

[peras]

Chris, ruffled some feathers? For sure I am surprised how much you know about me and my background though we never met. While we are at that, I left the corporate environment in 99 and started business in retail and wholesale of meat. So this is actually the primary business which developed in such a way that it allowed me to live my dream and now I can do the hunting basically full time. I will not stop selling biltong and carcasses.
Do I need to do this to keep Paw Print afloat? Definitely not. This brings me to Bob's word ,"business synergy" ie "the concept that the value and performance of two or more companies combined will be greater than the sum of the separate individual parts".
Although I prefer to keep my eye on factors I can control, lets not forget that you are totally correct in regards to the effect a sudden change in the exchange rate can have. If we look at the macro economic factors such as politics, Eskom, countrys credit rating, economical growth etc. and we take into account the graph as Brickburn has put up for the last few years we are in a situation where this is highly unlikely, but nothing is impossible. This the reason for me preferring not to have my eggs in one basket and to manage the situation by having my hand on the factors I can control.

 

[BRICKBURN]

............

-As far as per night pricing goes on a a la carte safari, I don't see the issue, would consumers prefer to have, day of arrival and day of departure to count as one full day or per night? One fact remains the PH that picks up the client receives his full daily rate for that day.
Fuel? Other costs, transfer?
It is not a free or no cost day...

Give me suggestions and I'll discuss it. I have compt this day many times and use it as a bargaining tool often in SA, but in Moz I simply can not.

To be honest brickburn I just can't see why it's BS.
........

Jaco, I'll explain. I was not clear.
First, I wholly agree that there are costs and need to be paid.
My issue is in the presentation of the offer. That's it.

Selling a "7 Day hunt" when in fact it is a 5 day hunt.
Just call it what it is.

Hotels I am paying for a "night". Check in and check out times are set, unless otherwise agreed.
A B&B the same thing. I do not expect breakfast on the afternoon I arrive to check in. That is not part of the deal.
If I am paying for an "activity" - hunting- on any particular day I expect to be doing that activity for as much of that day as possible.

 

[Norwegianwoods]

I'll explain. I was not clear.
First, I wholly agree that there are costs and need to be paid.
My issue is in the presentation. That's it.

Selling a "7 Day hunt" when in fact it is a 5 day hunt.
Just call it what it is.

I agree on this.
There are way to many outfitters and agents that sell 7 day hunts or 10 day hunts when it really is a 5 or a 8 day hunt.
And I really see no reason for why I should pay for a PH that I will not be using for hunting on the day of arrival and departure either.

Because of my own financial situation I can not afford $450 or higher daily rates for my next hunt to Africa.
Specially not since we are 2 adults and 4 kids/teenagers going to hunt next time.
I earn less than 2/3 of the average income in Norway and our currency has taken a huge drop compared with the US$ lately too.
I will for sure look for the best bargain possible, but where I still feel that the outfitter will do his best to make our experience a great one.

Some times I think some outfitters whine to much and really don't appreciate how long time saving and how many sacrifices many of their potential clients need to do to afford to go on a hunt in Africa.
Don't whine because some outfitters "steal" your clients with lower prices because you most likely don't want cheapskate clients like them/us anyway.

 

[ChrisT]

Chris, ruffled some feathers? For sure I am surprised how much you know about me and my background though we never met. While we are at that, I left the corporate environment in 99 and started business in retail and wholesale of meat. So this is actually the primary business which developed in such a way that it allowed me to live my dream and now I can do the hunting basically full time. I will not stop selling biltong and carcasses.
Do I need to do this to keep Paw Print afloat? Definitely not. This brings me to Bob's word ,"business synergy" ie "the concept that the value and performance of two or more companies combined will be greater than the sum of the separate individual parts".
Although I prefer to keep my eye on factors I can control, lets not forget that you are totally correct in regards to the effect a sudden change in the exchange rate can have. If we look at the macro economic factors such as politics, Eskom, countrys credit rating, economical growth etc. and we take into account the graph as Brickburn has put up for the last few years we are in a situation where this is highly unlikely, but nothing is impossible. This the reason for me preferring not to have my eggs in one basket and to manage the situation by having my hand on the factors I can control.

Pieter, I know nothing about your business or yourself. As said in an earlier response - I had no idea about how you were pricing your hunts until you jumped on this thread... Of course (after your replies to this thread) I had a look at your website...which gave me some insight on your background.... That's it...

To cut things short:

I'm not trying to (nor do I want to) compete with you for the market segment and that you are evidently targeting. You are obviously providing a good service in this segment - We have BillC to attest to that...

But seeing you seem to be taking this personal (and it was not intended to be so) and that you have hunts booked out 2 years ahead...

Please answer me one question:

How are you going to handle things if the ZAR/US$ changes back to 7/1 before your next clients arrive? Is the Biltong business strong enough to cover that?

Best,

Chris

 

[KWALATA SAFARIS]

Jaco, I'll explain. I was not clear.
First, I wholly agree that there are costs and need to be paid.
My issue is in the presentation of the offer. That's it.

Selling a "7 Day hunt" when in fact it is a 5 day hunt.
Just call it what it is.

Hotels I am paying for a "night". Check in and check out times are set, unless otherwise agreed.
A B&B the same thing. I do not expect breakfast on the afternoon I arrive to check in. That is not part of the deal.
If I am paying for an "activity" - hunting- on any particular day I expect to be doing that activity for as much of that day as possible.

I agree 150% with you I was not on the same page, we are in fact! It's is Kak I agree a 7 day hunt (but only 5 days hunting) who came up with that?
I'm with you as well Cris.

My best to you super moderator! And all other AH fanatics (this is fun on a G & T )

 

[tarbe]

Question for the RSA operators:

Do the different Provinces have differing tax rates/structures?

Managing the tax burden can play a huge role in how/where we operate here in the States. Curious if the same applies in say NW Province vs KZN or some such?


Tim

 

[JustinC]

Question for the RSA operators:

Do the different Provinces have differing tax rates/structures?

Managing the tax burden can play a huge role in how/where we operate here in the States. Curious if the same applies in say NW Province vs KZN or some such?


Tim

Nope, all the same.

 

[BRICKBURN]

................. in Norway and our currency has taken a huge drop compared with the US$ lately too.
...............

The money traders are not our friends for sure.
On this subject lets have some fun.

From the following 10 year charts you will note that the Rand (ZAR) and the Canadian dollar (CAD) are in a slightly less volatile relationship that with the ZAR/USD.

The bottom chart shows the volatile nature of the CAD and USD. (everyone else to)
In the last year there is now an 13% increase in the cost of a Safari because of USD pricing is used. Never mind the extra 5% screwing from the bank.
VS
ZAR to CAD
Exchange is basically FLAT - Zero difference in exchange in the last year. Over the long term, as noted, it is also less volatile.

So, perhaps some pricing in CAD and we can both win.

 

[tarbe]

Nope, all the same.

Well, that certainly simplifies things...at least from the tax perspective!

thanks,

Tim

 

[peras]

Pieter, I know nothing about your business or yourself. As said in an earlier response - I had no idea about how you were pricing your hunts until you jumped on this thread... Of course (after your replies to this thread) I had a look at your website...which gave me some insight on your background.... That's it...

To cut things short:

I'm not trying to (nor do I want to) compete with you for the market segment and that you are evidently targeting. You are obviously providing a good service in this segment - We have BillC to attest to that...

But seeing you seem to be taking this personal (and it was not intended to be so) and that you have hunts booked out 2 years ahead...

Please answer me one question:

How are you going to handle things if the ZAR/US$ changes back to 7/1 before your next clients arrive? Is the Biltong business strong enough to cover that?

Best,

Chris

Chris, I am taking the issue personal because it comes up every now and then. Because I am a marketer I know the effect of perception created in the minds of consumers, it is actually a strategy used by many major brands.

I stated that I had clients before leaving deposits with me for up to two years. In these cases exchange rates were discussed. As you I put this in a contract, luckily it never had to be implemented.
As for what I call a "biltong" business, you will maybe be surprised at the tonnage we move. Just on another note here, with the high protein low carb fad, and the new laws on venison to be slaughtered in a registered abbatoir and being health inspected this market has a bright future ahead.
For the first time in years South Africans are starting to realise the value of venison.
I even had to buy in this year because of demand.

 

[Norwegianwoods]

The money traders are not our friends for sure.
On this subject lets have some fun.

From the following 10 year charts you will note that the Rand (ZAR) and the Canadian dollar (CAD) are in a slightly less volatile relationship that with the ZAR/USD.

The bottom chart shows the volatile nature of the CAD and USD. (everyone else to)
In the last year there is now an 13% increase in the cost of a Safari because of USD pricing is used. Never mind the extra 5% screwing from the bank.
VS
ZAR to CAD
Exchange is basically FLAT - Zero difference in exchange in the last year. Over the long term, as noted, it is also less volatile.

So, perhaps some pricing in CAD and we can both win.

In my opinion would it be much better to have the hunts and the trophy fees priced in Rands(ZAR)
I guess that would make it much easier and more predictable for the outfitters too.

 

[ChrisT]

Chris, I am taking the issue personal because it comes up every now and then. Because I am a marketer I know the effect of perception created in the minds of consumers, it is actually a strategy used by many major brands.

I stated that I had clients before leaving deposits with me for up to two years. In these cases exchange rates were discussed. As you I put this in a contract, luckily it never had to be implemented.
As for what I call a "biltong" business, you will maybe be surprised at the tonnage we move. Just on another note here, with the high protein low carb fad, and the new laws on venison to be slaughtered in a registered abbatoir and being health inspected this market has a bright future ahead.
For the first time in years South Africans are starting to realise the value of venison.
I even had to buy in this year because of demand.

Pieter,

Thanks for your explanation but it doesn't answer my question..

The exchange rate when you started in this business (2011 if I understand things right) was around 7/1 (as per Brickburn's graph... Since then - the SA Rand has steadily been losing value against the US$ and right now it is at 11/1. I appreciate that... But I also know that prior to 2011 there were some severe exchange rate fluctuations as can not only been seen on the graph Brickburn posted but those who were in the business before 2005 will know exactly how quickly things can change for the worst...

My question remains:

How are you going to handle things if the ZAR/US$ changes back to 7/1 before your next clients arrive?

 

[peras]

Pieter,

Thanks for your explanation but it doesn't answer my question..

The exchange rate when you started in this business (2011 if I understand things right) was around 7/1 (as per Brickburn's graph... Since then - the SA Rand has steadily been losing value against the US$ and right now it is at 11/1. I appreciate that... But I also know that prior to 2011 there were some severe exchange rate fluctuations as can not only been seen on the graph Brickburn posted but those who were in the business before 2005 will know exactly how quickly things can change for the worst...

My question remains:

How are you going to handle things if the ZAR/US$ changes back to 7/1 before your next clients arrive?

My answer remains it is stated in a contract that we will work on a certain minimum exchange rate.

 

[BRICKBURN]

In my opinion would it be much better to have the hunts and the trophy fees priced in Rands(ZAR)
I guess that would make it much easier and more predictable for the outfitters too.

As a heads up for those Outfitters who are coming to Canadian shows this year, you'll go a long way in selling your hunts if your price is in CAD at the shows.
As billc noted, knowing the price is a big deal.

 

[ChrisT]

My answer remains it is stated in a contract that we will work on a certain minimum exchange rate.

And in the bigger scheme of things what will this mean Pieter? Please inform us...

How much are you going to be charging if we're back at 7/1 or 5/1 God forbid...?

Regards,

Chris

 

[ChrisT]

As a heads up for those Outfitters who are coming to Canadian shows this year, you'll go a long way in selling your hunts if your price is in CAD at the shows.
As billc noted, knowing the price is a big deal.

Thanks for the heads-up Wayne.

FWIW My prices will be quoted in CAD at the shows... But NOT at $250p/d (Canadian or US) - that's for sure... I have to make a living too...

Best,

Chris

 

[KWALATA SAFARIS]

I remember in 2001 I was a PH for john x safaris we turned at R15 to the USD and in 4 months I lost 45% of my income when it dropped away.

In 2009 or Jan 2010 can not recall exactly I was running an airfare included special while in the US, as we where trading at R9.95 to the $............ by May we where sitting at R6.20 to the $ I remember distinctly promising myself NEVER AGAIN!

I took the knock I did not knock my clients for it...
I just can not explain it to myself, that if I agreed on pricing to rather contractually sort of agree on it 2 years down the line should the exchange rate change.... (It doesn't feel like an agreement to me.
Not criticizing anyone that does it like this, to me personally it's just not the way to work.

It sucks boys, Cris you seem to also know the feeling.

My best.

 

[peras]

And in the bigger scheme of things what will this mean Pieter? Please inform us...

How much are you going to be charging if we're back at 7/1 or 5/1 God forbid...?

Regards,

Chris

Very easy to understand, a contract will state that a quote is valid if the exchange rate does not fall below a certain level. If it does new prices will be negotiated or a deposit returned. However , Chris like you should know it is not often that you will fix prices so far ahead. Most bookings I take in advance is more about a specific time period hunters want, for instance bow hunters wants a specific time in August with a specific moon stage, thus they confirm the time with a small deposit, knowing that the price will be competitive for whatever the situation is. Exchange rates do not fall in one day from 11 to 7 so as soon as it gets close to a minimum rate, decisions can be made timeously.

We are with the current economical situation now speculating on hypothetical maters. Even though I was not running an outfit in 2005 I have taken note from the situation, the reason for the above way to handle it contractually and solve the problem before it arise.