Politics

[SaintPanzer]

Well, I started this, so I suppose I have some responsibility to address some of the points.

I'm not normally a "slippery slope" person, but: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/brit...sfers-maid-faith-based-institutions-9.7054084

I intellectually understand the "want to have control over it" argument. But that only goes so far. Someone wants to make Hemlock Tea? OK... But surely there is a difference between that and making the tea for them. There's a further difference in taking an oath to "first, do no harm" and then using the syringe. There's an even bigger difference in actually encouraging someone to make that choice if they are on the fence.

As far as "but it gets the public health system off the hook for the greater expense of care..." argument: So Sarah Palin was right about the Death Panels? I guess blind squirrels can find nuts sometimes. Or did she just say the quiet part out loud?

I guess I can understand the point of view that physical tragedies cause depression. But we used to treat mental illnesses. Somehow, we've stopped doing that, and in this case, instead of treating the illness, a medical doctor instead encouraged succumbing to the illness. Curiously, we see that doctor's name in a lot of articles. Similarly, "we" (not just Canadians) stopped treating and started encouraging other mental illnesses, which is how we get to tragedies in BC schools or RI hockey rinks. See a pattern?

What I'm not buying is the "why not, he didn't see a future" canard. No. I know too many others who have lost limbs, been disfigured by burns, lost eyesight, etc. They inspire me by continuing to suck the marrow out of the bones of their lives. True story: In 2016, I was at the Balboa Naval Hospital, where I was told that due to (service related, but not combat related) damage to my hips, I should never run again, and may not even be able to play hockey again. Considering I've been running distance since I was 13, that was a bit of a shock. It took me aback for about three minutes, but it didn't last long. As I was walking out into the passageway from the treatment room, I saw a Lance Corporal who probably hadn't been born yet when I pinned on Captain learning how to run on his new prosthetic lower leg and foot. That changed my attitude really quick. I quickly remembered all the Stockdale I had read. The question is never: "Why me?" It's always "Why not me?"

As another example, this guy shattered his right arm, lost most of his teeth, his right eye, along with a bunch of other injuries just a month after his 21st birthday. And he persists. I'd rather be more like him, and I'd encourage others to be like him:

 

[Tanks]

You still have to agree. No one is going to stop giving you the treatment you require should you decline to use MAID. And if you want to decline, by all means do it. No one, I repeat no one, is forcing anyone into signing up for MAID.

The problem I have is that in a lot of cases, not necessarily terminal ones, the guidance seems to be MAID first and treatment last.

Of course, I have an issue with any health plan that requires me to get administrative approval for treatment.

 

[Aaron N]

The problem I have is that in a lot of cases, not necessarily terminal ones, the guidance seems to be MAID first and treatment last.

Of course, I have an issue with any health plan that requires me to get administrative approval for treatment.

Is it though? Or are you getting second hand information relayed through upset family members to a biased media? Likely these cases that pop up have been working with professionals for years without much success. Either way, if someone wants to die, they will find a way. I say we give them the least messy option available.

 

[CJW]

Well I’ve had family members use it already, and my parents have openly stated their desire to go out that way.

I've read YT commenters and the like naming certain ages that they've chosen to go out by the needle. I don't know if that's how your family has done it or will do it but I think that's messed up. Checking out just because life gets more difficult ain't right. I think it's a dystopian and uninspiring family history and society.

As for the kid, I mean going blind at 17, just when your old enough to see and play with some titties, and realizing that 98% of all life opportunities have now slipped through your grasp, I can see why he made his decision.

Wasn't he blind in only one eye? 98% of opportunities gone? Playing with titties? Really? Can't blind people get married, have sex, have kids, spend quality time with family, pets, play music, build furniture, travel, enjoy hobbies, blah, blah, blah? Your views on life seem challenging.

Do we encourage and help people anymore or do we just send them over the cliff because live and let live?

The thing is, id rather have a loved one tell me they’re doing it and properly dealing with it and saying goodbye than them blowing their brains out (if there was no changing their mind). Banning MAID isn’t going to stop suicides, people will always find a way.

But the question is would you just support them from day one without trying to get them into a better mental place? Sure some will find a way but I view this easy process as encouraging to people who normally wouldn't have had the guts to do it.

So once again, yes I support Canadians having access to this.

Fine they have access. But do you really trust the people implementing it and administering it? Do you believe it will be a social contagion or used for evil by the evil people who flock to our gov't positions? Or like I have pointed to or Red Leg said a symbol of virtue or fashion?

Let me flip the script, how would you feel if a child/grandchild was a victim of a school shooting? That would be quite devastating. Would you advocate for tighter 2A laws?

Absolutely not. I would do like I normally do and blame our ever devolving society where everyone else is to blame for your problems, kids who are given unfettered access to brain rotting social media by their very own parents, other forms of crap parenting, shitty politicians who want to tear down our social fabric and institutions and encourage mental issues, pharmaceutical companies, shit doctors who pledge to do no harm but go back on it, I can go on. Sometimes they're perpetrated by naturally bad people or people who snapped. It's apples to oranges.

I guess I'm just not so cavalier on the subject.

 

[Aaron N]

I've read YT commenters and the like naming certain ages that they've chosen to go out by the needle. I don't know if that's how your family has done it or will do it but I think that's messed up. Checking out just because life gets more difficult ain't right. I think it's a dystopian and uninspiring family history and society.

No; we aren’t choosing dates, and I don’t think anyone who is, is being realistic. And the fact that you’re talking about YouTube comments makes it even less realistic.

Wasn't he blind in only one eye? 98% of opportunities gone? Playing with titties? Really? Can't blind people get married, have sex, have kids, spend quality time with family, pets, play music, build furniture, travel, enjoy hobbies, blah, blah, blah? Your views on life seem challenging.

Was he? All I remember reading is that he was blind from a car accident at 17. But do you honestly think that someone who’s blinded in their teens will have remotely the same outcome in life as someone who isn’t? You dont think the dating pool, social circle, career opportunities will be drastically reduced? Sure they can live a healthy and long life, but I don’t think it will be nearly as fulfilling.

Do we encourage and help people anymore or do we just send them over the cliff because live and let live?

Of course we should help, do you think that anyone is walking in off the street, saying that they’re sad, and getting a needle in the jugular on the same day? Not even close. There are social programs for a reason, you know, the ones everyone likes to blame liberals for. How many of these people were told to “man up” as the only help from their family?

But the question is would you just support them from day one without trying to get them into a better mental place? Sure some will find a way but I view this easy process as encouraging to people who normally wouldn't have had the guts to do it.

Fine they have access. But do you really trust the people implementing it and administering it? Do you believe it will be a social contagion or used for evil by the evil people who flock to our gov't positions? Or like I have pointed to or Red Leg said a symbol of virtue or fashion?

So you believe that vans will start stealing people off the streets and then the govt will have them whacked via needles?

Absolutely not. I would do like I normally do and blame our ever devolving society where everyone else is to blame for your problems, kids who are given unfettered access to brain rotting social media by their very own parents, other forms of crap parenting, shitty politicians who want to tear down our social fabric and institutions and encourage mental issues, pharmaceutical companies, shit doctors who pledge to do no harm but go back on it, I can go on. Sometimes they're perpetrated by naturally bad people or people who snapped. It's apples to oranges.

Exactly, you don’t throw the baby out with the bath water.

I guess I'm just not so cavalier on the subject.

The beauty of it is, THAT YOU DONT HAVE TO BE! No one is forcing anyone to make this decision. If you’re against it, then go out naturally (hopefully under a beautiful woman and not bed ridden with 18 machines hooked up to you).

 

[fourfive8]

Easily the best change I have ever made in life.

That is certainly setting the bar high for your life’s ambitions

 

[CJW]

No; we aren’t choosing dates, and I don’t think anyone who is, is being realistic. And the fact that you’re talking about YouTube comments makes it even less realistic.

Was he? All I remember reading is that he was blind from a car accident at 17. But do you honestly think that someone who’s blinded in their teens will have remotely the same outcome in life as someone who isn’t? You dont think the dating pool, social circle, career opportunities will be drastically reduced? Sure they can live a healthy and long life, but I don’t think it will be nearly as fulfilling.

Of course we should help, do you think that anyone is walking in off the street, saying that they’re sad, and getting a needle in the jugular on the same day? Not even close. There are social programs for a reason, you know, the ones everyone likes to blame liberals for. How many of these people were told to “man up” as the only help from their family?

So you believe that vans will start stealing people off the streets and then the govt will have them whacked via needles?


Exactly, you don’t throw the baby out with the bath water.

The beauty of it is, THAT YOU DONT HAVE TO BE! No one is forcing anyone to make this decision. If you’re against it, then go out naturally (hopefully under a beautiful woman and not bed ridden with 18 machines hooked up to you).

This is going nowhere.

Have a good night.

 

[Jeff505]

Well I’ve had family members use it already, and my parents have openly stated their desire to go out that way.

As for the kid, I mean going blind at 17, just when your old enough to see and play with some titties, and realizing that 98% of all life opportunities have now slipped through your grasp, I can see why he made his decision.

The thing is, id rather have a loved one tell me they’re doing it and properly dealing with it and saying goodbye than them blowing their brains out (if there was no changing their mind). Banning MAID isn’t going to stop suicides, people will always find a way.

So once again, yes I support Canadians having access to this.

Let me flip the script, how would you feel if a child/grandchild was a victim of a school shooting? That would be quite devastating. Would you advocate for tighter 2A laws?

Obviously to be a member here there should be an interest in African hunting, although there are wide points of view on many areas, at the same time there is also a consistency with certain values. I have recently tried to not comment on politics as this seems to be an area of contention. The bankrupt liberal argument of we would all be safer if more stringent unconstitutional infringement of second amendment rights were invoked is completely contrary to logical thought and certainly does not make us safer. Canada does not have a right to bear arms in their constitution, like the rest of the world and this is to their detriment. Human life is precious born or unborn. A close family friend had a child who was suicidal, through medication and therapy this is all in the past. With this warped approach that Canada has taken this child would probably have been governmentally exterminated. How can you possibly defend this?

 

[Aaron N]

This is going nowhere.

Have a good night.

Have a great night. It’s not an issue we need to agree on!

 

[Aaron N]

Obviously to be a member here there should be an interest in African hunting, although there are wide points of view on many areas, at the same time there is also a consistency with certain values. I have recently tried to not comment on politics as this seems to be an area of contention. The bankrupt liberal argument of we would all be safer if more stringent unconstitutional infringement of second amendment rights were invoked is completely contrary to logical thought and certainly does not make us safer. Canada does not have a right to bear arms in their constitution, like the rest of the world and this is to their detriment. Human life is precious born or unborn. A close family friend had a child who was suicidal, through medication and therapy this is all in the past. With this warped approach that Canada has taken this child would probably have been governmentally exterminated. How can you possibly defend this?

At no point did I advocate for gun control, the point I was making is quite the opposite. I’m glad your friend child turned themselves around, they would have gotten the same supports here. And I have hunted Africa and can’t wait to return, but I begrudgingly will. What’s your 505? Mines a CZ

 

[Hank2211]

You still have to agree. No one is going to stop giving you the treatment you require should you decline to use MAID. And if you want to decline, by all means do it. No one, I repeat no one, is forcing anyone into signing up for MAID.

With respect Aaron N, I think a lot hinges on your definition of ‘forcing.’

People who are sick, mentally or physically, who are in pain, who are lonely, who don’t want their family to see them suffering, who have trouble making ends meet, or who are otherwise vulnerable can often be cajoled or enticed, or convinced into signing up for something they otherwise wouldn’t have taken, and even feel as if it was their free choice. When MAID was initially proposed, it was for this reason that doctors and health care practitioners were advised not to suggest death as a cure for whatever ails you. If the patient raised it, fine, but not otherwise. That has changed, and the number of those accepting MAID has gone up.

 

[Jeff505]

At no point did I advocate for gun control, the point I was making is quite the opposite. I’m glad your friend child turned themselves around, they would have gotten the same supports here. And I have hunted Africa and can’t wait to return, but I begrudgingly will. What’s your 505? Mines a CZ

A CZ here also.

 

[Aaron N]

With respect Aaron N, I think a lot hinges on your definition of ‘forcing.’

People who are sick, mentally or physically, who are in pain, who are lonely, who don’t want their family to see them suffering, who have trouble making ends meet, or who are otherwise vulnerable can often be cajoled or enticed, or convinced into signing up for something they otherwise wouldn’t have taken, and even feel as if it was their free choice. When MAID was initially proposed, it was for this reason that doctors and health care practitioners were advised not to suggest death as a cure for whatever ails you. If the patient raised it, fine, but not otherwise. That has changed, and the number of those accepting MAID has gone up.

Or are numbers going up because we have an aging population, and people are realizing that it’s not as sinister as Jack Kevorkian was made out to be in the 90’s?

Do you have first hand knowledge of someone being offered MAID as the first solution to their medical/mental issues? If so, I’d be interested in hearing it.

I know @BRICKBURN likes to stay clear of this mud pit, but he would have great insight on the process. I’m not sure if any Canadian members are MD’s.

Interestingly enough, there is a mental health exclusion for the next year

 

[skydiver386]

Why ration Health Care when you can just end their life and remove them from the system altogether?

 

[LivingTheDream]

You dont think the dating pool, social circle, career opportunities will be drastically reduced

Not to be smart ass but feel like these are drastically reduced if you are dead.

 

[Aaron N]

Why ration Health Care when you can just end their life and remove them from the system altogether?

Why cure cancer when you make more profit off of the sick?

 

[Aaron N]

Not to be smart ass but feel like these are drastically reduced if you are dead.

Well played.

 

[LivingTheDream]

Well played.

Sorry I couldn't resist.

 

[Aaron N]

Sorry I couldn't resist.

Either way, you aren’t getting to see the goods

 

[BRICKBURN]

@Aaron N I'll only offer this. There is plenty of information available to provide some insight.


The ethics of MAID is a long debate and as @Hank2211 noted it was of great concern that people requesting MAID would actually be making the decision themselves and in their own best interest.

There are very significant restrictions and qualifications involved in the "Application" process for MAID.
https://www.canada.ca/en/health-can...rvices-benefits/medical-assistance-dying.html

For those in mental health where it is not so crystal clear about treatment outcomes it is harder. Furthermore, it is hard for most people to imagine someones pain and suffering being so extreme that they would prefer death, unless you have born witness to the suffering.

I have just witnessed the aftermath of another suicide of a young man (32). He had been suffering with chronic cluster headaches (think migraine headaches on steriods) and associated depression. After many years of ineffectual treatment he took his own life with a firearm to stop his suffering.
No applications or requests required.


I'll give you a somewhat related crap scenario I have just encountered:
No advance application made, No POA made, No Will drafted (although irrelevant for this discussion), No Medical Directives. Zip.

Person did not know they have Cancer, advanced stages apparently. Thinks they had the flu/cold.
Person has several strokes (TIA's) due to complications of the undiagnosed Cancer (Blood gets a little too thick).
As a result of TIA; is now blind.
Further result of the TIA's ; brain damage.
Oncology refuses to treat due to lack of capacity to comprehend consequences of chemo or radiation treatment.
Neuro-Rehabilitation won't take them on due to poor prognosis.
Prognosis: 6 to 12 months in care literally waiting to get worse and die.

Lesson:
Please get your enduring power of attorney done.
Please get your advance medical directives done. Educate your family and friends on your wishes.
Please get your damned Will drafted.
If you want to make a choice about your care, hurry up and do it while you are capable of doing so. Be that advanced medical care or MAID.