Question For Our German & Austrian Members

[Foxi]

For the members that live in Germany and Austria, what is the general perception on differences between Heym and Krieghoff?

Heym has the bigger marketing and people like Ivan Carter have contributed significantly to its popularity in the USA.
Krieghoff manufactures more expensive weapons overall. I'm not referring to their off-the-shelf products here.
In terms of quality, the differences are certainly very difficult to discern.
When it comes to reselling weapons, Krieghoff clearly beats Heym, at least in German-speaking countries, so a gunsmith at Big F. (a prominent weapon dealer,which everey hunter knows here)
Foxi

 

[Foxi]

A brief addendum for the amateur historians among you:

The roots of both companies, and many others, lie in the town of Suhl in Thuringia, Germany
There, knowledge of gunsmithing craftsmanship has been passed down for centuries, the value of which cannot be estimated. Guns were already being built there long before the Pilgrim Fathers ran aground on your rocks.

 

[Altitude sickness]

Really !?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!? Care to share sources, evidences, pics of muzzles, rookhawk?

I find this really, really difficult to believe...

For what it is worth, it is the first time ever I hear someone making this type of comment on Krieghoff...

I agree that one either loves or hates the decocking "safety"; I agree that the "engraving" is at its best when completely absent; I will add that the nickel plating does nothing to improve the looks of the rifle and that I have seen a few rifles on which it was chipping away; I will agree that the ergonomics will work for you or not; but as to state that the rifles "are regulated with a dremel", I have certainly never seen, or heard, anything like that, and I am immensely skeptical.................................

As to Tex .416's original question, I am neither German nor Austrian, and although I was posted in Germany (where I hunted in the Black Forest) I never lived in Austria, but I hunted a lot in the Alps and the European mountain hunting community is fairly tight knit, with good or bad reputations crossing borders easily.
So, my input is as follows...
Both Heym's and Krieghoff's European reputation was based on their double rifles and drillings. Neither was considered a leader in turn bolts -- that was Mannlicher's, then Steyr-Mannlicher's unchallenged supremacy; and train loads of ex-military K98 were converted for both Teutonic gentry and Latin masses with various degrees of sophistication from exquisite to simply functional.
I am not aware of any issue with Krieghoff, but Heym had a very publicized accident with a double rifle action breaking under fire. This was, in the end, written off as one-of-a-kind "material defect" accident, but it hurt them tremendously for a while.
My experience with them is that both are effective and reliable, and I would argue that choosing one over the other is more a matter of technical choice (decocker), personal ergonomics, style & aesthetics, rather than quality.

I have no dog in this fight. I like Krieghoff and Heym products. New and old.

A quick call to the Krieghoff U.S. representatives will confirm that they do indeed “machine” one side of the crown to move one of the offending barrels bullet POI.

They will also send it back to have it re soldered and moved if requested.

3” at 50 yards is the standard for Krieghoff big bore accuracy. Many achieve much better groups with their Krieghoff big bore. But if you contact Krieghoff to ask what they consider “good enough” for a big bore. It’s 3” at 50 yards.


I owned a Krieghoff hammer gun made in Suhl that was a piece of art.

 

[Foxi]

3" is probably achievable for every K-or Heym double, and most are much better.
But that way, they are excluded from the complaint.One must also not forget that it is about rear sight and front sight, without aiming aids, such a statement!!!
In addition, there is the issue of shot dispersion, and few people can shoot large calibers (.450 up).
It's also a question of price when it comes to practice. I've noticed that some people spend $20,000 or more on their safari, but then skimp on ammunition........
Three rounds of .450 NE cost € 50.- here, if you can even get them.
I enjoy shooting large caliber.
Here is my double Franz Sodia/Ferlach in .458. - 500gn Degol bullet with a Burris fast fire
The first shot on the right went off too early, but then it was fine for 50 m.

 

[grand veneur]

When comparing the two companies, one must primarily consider their doubles rifles, as Krieghoff, unlike Heym, has hardly anything to offer in regard of bolt action rifles. Years ago I have shot double rifles caliber 470 Nitro Express from both companies and would therefore always prefer Heym, as their rifles are more in line with traditional English and Belgian double rifle designs, particularly the bigger bores used in Africa. Regarding the technical specifications, it is always difficult to make a judgment, as many components of such semi-serial rifles come from the same forge. I did not like the Krieghoff rifle because, from an aesthetic point of view, the break-action was too narrow compared to the barrels. At first glance, it seemed more like a action designed for a double rifle caliber 9,3x74R.

 

[Red Leg]

I am in equal measure appalled and saddened if Krieghoff really is allowing its American distributer/representative to address regulation issues with a drill bit. Admittedly, there is a fairly widely held, however politely expressed contempt for American gunmakers in Europe. It is quite possible Krieghoff management assessed our market and reached the conclusion that any method that quickly addressed the issue - in this case tighter regulation - was irrelevant to the vast majority of American gun owners.

 

[grand veneur]

When it comes to double rifles, Heym is in my opinion the better choice between the two. It is different for someone who wants to buy a combination gun, like a drilling for example, but in this case I cannot posts someone on that.

 

[steve white]

Makes one wonder how Sheiring in Ferlach regulates so that TEN SHOTS at 70 meters are collectively under two inches!! No excuses in my book for 3 inches at fifty yards, especially at those prices.

 

[Hunter-Habib]

For rifles, I prefer Heym.

For shotguns, I prefer Kreighoff.

P.S: I’m neither German nor Austrian, but I thought I’d chip in anyway.

 

[Foxi]

"Makes one wonder how Sheiring in Ferlach regulates so that TEN SHOTS at 70 meters are collectively under"


Without cooling;thats absolute firstclass.

But he is shooting in the video with a scope on.
A complete other situation.
Do it with open sight and I swear you the world is an other.

 

[SStomcat]

I’m neither of those two nationalities, but I’ll throw my hat in the ring anyway — this is AH after all, everyone gets a turn.

So, price difference? Oh yes… and it’s not the kind you find lost between the truck seats. It’s significant. But quality? Honestly, I see no difference whatsoever. I’ve handled both, and the fit, finish, and internal mechanisms are exactly what you’d expect from Germany: over-engineered, over-built, and probably capable of surviving a mild nuclear event.

Engraving and fancy external fluff? Not my thing. My rifles don’t need to look like they’re auditioning for a Bavarian ballroom dance. But I’ll say this — the Krieghoff receiver is a slick-looking piece of kit, and that cocking mechanism is pure Teutonic genius.

Now… Heym. Great rifles, no doubt. But let’s be honest: they spend more on marketing than some African countries spend on road maintenance. That’s why they’re everywhere. And I just love when a cracked receiver gets explained away with, “Oh no, that doesn’t count — that was a very special never-sold-in-America prototype unicorn edition.”

Sure it was. And my 470 NE is a lightweight mountain rifle.

 

[Red Leg]

"Makes one wonder how Sheiring in Ferlach regulates so that TEN SHOTS at 70 meters are collectively under"


Without cooling;thats absolute firstclass.

But he is shooting in the video with a scope on.
A complete other situation.
Do it with open sight and I swear you the world is an other.

If the rifle is accurate enough, why not use a scope? I do, with quick detachable mounts, on my S2. I do it because it shoots into 2.5 inches at 100 yards and MOA with each barrel (I sight in on the right barrel giving me 250 yard PB with a double). Of course, I have been accused here several times that my use of a double simply isn't "proper." Being a "cheeky fellow" (apologies to Benjamin Martin) , I think that is rather ridiculous. But it is an invitation to modern gunmakers, some worshipped by members here, to allow them to sell rifles with regulation closer to that of a double barrel shotgun with slugs than a rifle.

And of the two, I would choose the Krieghoff - simply like the modern design. Polar fleece affects me the same way.

 

[grand veneur]

I’m neither of those two nationalities, but I’ll throw my hat in the ring anyway — this is AH after all, everyone gets a turn.

So, price difference? Oh yes… and it’s not the kind you find lost between the truck seats. It’s significant. But quality? Honestly, I see no difference whatsoever. I’ve handled both, and the fit, finish, and internal mechanisms are exactly what you’d expect from Germany: over-engineered, over-built, and probably capable of surviving a mild nuclear event.

Engraving and fancy external fluff? Not my thing. My rifles don’t need to look like they’re auditioning for a Bavarian ballroom dance. But I’ll say this — the Krieghoff receiver is a slick-looking piece of kit, and that cocking mechanism is pure Teutonic genius.

Now… Heym. Great rifles, no doubt. But let’s be honest: they spend more on marketing than some African countries spend on road maintenance. That’s why they’re everywhere. And I just love when a cracked receiver gets explained away with, “Oh no, that doesn’t count — that was a very special never-sold-in-America prototype unicorn edition.”

Sure it was. And my 470 NE is a lightweight mountain rifle.

Heym certainly does more than Krieghoff when it comes to advertising, but you don't see their products everywhere that often anymore in my countries. Blaser is particularly prominent and their advertising as well as various sponsorships surpass Heym from far.

 

[RockSlinger404]

For rifles, I prefer Heym.

For shotguns, I prefer Kreighoff.

P.S: I’m neither German nor Austrian, but I thought I’d chip in anyway.

This is exactly what I shoot. K80 for clays/pigeons and 89b in 470NE for DG.

 

[grand veneur]

By the way, I am wondering why the German and Austrian members of the Forum are not participating in the discussion. Perhaps this reflects the fact that both companies Krieghoff and Heym are no longer as prominent among younger hunters in this countries and all those who don't hunt in Africa.

 

[mark-hunter]

German golden era of hunting guns, definition by literature:

 

[rookhawk]

 

[rookhawk]

What Krieghoff could do in the Pre-War Era. A Neptune that was well worn, but still a lovely drilling:

 

[grand veneur]

Krieghoff was certainly something quite different at one time. My bolt action rifle caliber 11,2x72 built by August Schüler in 1924, has a Mauser 98 action from Krieghoff. Back then, they helped each other out with components in Suhl.

 

[Foxi]

If the rifle is accurate enough, why not use a scope? I do, with quick detachable mounts, on my S2. I do it because it shoots into 2.5 inches at 100 yards and MOA with each barrel (I sight in on the right barrel giving me 250 yard PB with a double). Of course, I have been accused here several times that my use of a double simply isn't "proper." Being a "cheeky fellow" (apologies to Benjamin Martin) , I think that is rather ridiculous. But it is an invitation to modern gunmakers, some worshipped by members here, to allow them to sell rifles with regulation closer to that of a double barrel shotgun with slugs than a rifle.

And of the two, I would choose the Krieghoff - simply like the modern design. Polar fleece affects me the same way.

Big game rifles, i.e. the big ones, are normally delivered without a scope, which is what I was referring to. And when Krieghoff says 3", that means without a sighting aid, just open sights.
RedLeg, havent red/translated all, if I understand you correctly, you fire the right barrel first, but with an over-and-under, you fire the lower barrel first, with a delay of 4-7 seconds between shots. That's how the barrels are decorated("garniert" we say ).

There are newer double rifles that can be adjusted at the muzzle.

I have no experience with them, but do they really work?


I had a Heym repeater (SR 20) for 20 years, and none of the subsequent rifles had a lock action as smooth as this one.