When the good stuff doesn't work!!!

[IvW]

What bullets do you recommend on DG?

Personally I use Rhino solid shank expanders and Rhino brass meplat solids for elephant.

Swift A frame, Bearclaw, Bitteroot all perform well. Woodleigh for doubles at lower velocity.
Any ither brass meplat solids will work for elephant.

Any bonded bullet with proper controlled expansion and maximum weight retention has always worked best on dg for me.

 

[One Day...]

Contradiction in terms: "failed" bullets killing game perfectly dead...

I always find interesting the use of the terms "do not work", "failure", etc. in such threads...

I remember the time, not so long ago, when bullet failures were discussed over a vanishing blood trail after animals were lost. Now we discuss them over a G&T in the skinning shed...

I find it interesting that all these "failed bullets" pictures are recovered from ... dead animals successfully killed by said "failed bullets". I cannot help but see a contradiction in terms there

Maybe "uncharacteristic performance" would more adequately describe these rare events...

For those keeping track, I have entirely converted to TSX and TTSX. In my case this was initially because I live in AZ near the lead-free bullet Condor recovery area, but from 100 gr TTSX .257 Wby to 500 gr TSX .470 NE or .458 Lott, I have had nothing but good results with them, and I prefer the simplicity of one bullet/one load/one ballistic in each caliber to the endless resighting and inevitable confusion of constantly changing loads.

The one exception is Leopard (if hunted with the .375 H&H) for which I continue to believe that the 300 gr Nosler Partition is the best medicine. Yes its front core disintegrates explosively in the lung/heart cavity, but it is not by failure, it is by design

Oh well, pass on the Bombay Sapphire and Tonic, I will have a refill

 

[Fordy]

Gday twaraska

Do you think the wax will stay in when the bullet is spinning over 300k rpm?

The wax will loose some no doubt
Oil looses more
I’ve spun bullets to nearly 500k in a 375 ( not a typo) & it shows that the addition of wax gives better impact to distance & recovery times over a clear empty hp

So now we come to how much is needed & that is one I can’t answer but it on testing it has shown that a 1/2 filled or less hp cavity doesn’t have as good of a rate @ putting the critter on the ground as quickly from a distance & time ( impact to tip ) to a filled to the meplat pill

This was first seen when hammer bullets started cleaning oil out of their bullets just took a think outside the box moment to see what was actually occurring not thinking a different alloy batch was the issues
While alloy is important it’s useless if it doesn’t open to start with & watch the delay in the pill working creating wounds ( pencil first lobe on non oil or wax or 1/2 way through it to pencil all the way ) & hence longer impact to tip times now we can add bandaids to help fix this somewhat also of faster twists or higher impact velocity but the facts still remain the same


I personally like wax more than oil as it stays put in the pill over more applications but on the whole today I’ve moved on from doing it as better bullets on the market today imo of course but sometimes I still use Barnes , hammer , McGuire, or our Aussie equivalent of atomic29 in monos or Sierra hpbt or speer hp & addition of wax to these is mandatory for me

Cheers

 

[Wyatt Smith]

I always thought Barnes should fill there hollow points with soft lead. They would probably have to redesign the bullet a bit but would have something more like the rhino bullet when they were done.

 

[Fordy]

Gday oneday

Contradiction in terms: "failed" bullets killing game perfectly dead...

I always find interesting the use of the terms "do not work", "failure", etc. in such threads...

I remember the time, not so long ago, when bullet failures were discussed over a vanishing blood trail after animals were lost. Now we discuss them over a G&T in the skinning shed...

I find it interesting that all these "failed bullets" pictures are recovered from ... dead animals successfully killed by said "failed bullets". I cannot help but see a contradiction in terms there

Maybe "uncharacteristic performance" would more adequately describe these rare events...

For those keeping track, I have entirely converted to TSX and TTSX. In my case this was initially because I live in AZ near the lead-free bullet Condor recovery area, but from 100 gr TTSX .257 Wby to 500 gr TSX .470 NE or .458 Lott, I have had nothing but good results with them, and I prefer the simplicity of one bullet/one load/one ballistic in each caliber to the endless resighting and inevitable confusion of constantly changing loads.

The one exception is Leopard (if hunted with the .375 H&H) for which I continue to believe that the 300 gr Nosler Partition is the best medicine. Yes its front core disintegrates explosively in the lung/heart cavity, but it is not by failure, it is by design

Oh well, pass on the Bombay Sapphire and Tonic, I will have a refill

I’ll sip a bit lol

Overall bundy rum is better

A dead critter is a interesting one that hanging in the skinning she’d ultimately tells us we have a successful outcome right

Is this solely the bullet ?

I personally think not as the load development needs to be confirmed the sighted in correctly

Then the muppet behind the trigger comes in well I’m the muppet others not so much

Now the range the critters @ it’s behaviour climatic conditions & terrain

Then we send it & depending on what the pill is capable of we get varying results of impact to tip times Also the tracking ability of either the individual or tracker/s will show up on the ability to get that critter to the skinning shed & Africa has some extremely good trackers that have found critters that most would loose

for me personally I want a critter not just dead I want it dead asap & due to some of the terrain & also like in Mozambique earlier this year we were on a boarder with Zimbabwe that couldn’t be crossed if the critter made it over & a zebra near did 80 meters off which a 80 meter extra run is definitely possible with some calibers & bullets but knowing those from previous results has given the part of knowing what bullets gave better impact to tip rates & one that got that zebra in the skinning tree rather than lost over the boarder or in my case on a lot of places I’ve hunted it could be down a riven over a cliff into a croc river or billabong to just extremely thick stuff
It’s one I don’t like to loose critters & one I’ve lost a lot ( I’ve also shot a few lol ) this is down to the muppet the pill & the critters behaviour

So for me personally I can’t fix this muppet ( I practice a lot but nothings 100% or I’d have a gold medal around my neck or perfect scores @ a range although some seem to lol ) or I don’t have a intercom with the critter of it telling me it’s about to step forward or turn on a dime so don’t squeeze off now

Leaves me with the pill itself & one that some brands offer more insurance than others & that is a worthy discussion in my mind but a lot get wrapped up in the brand of choice & not look @ factuals or when they’re shown they resort to im a perfect shot or go quiet which either way shows their lack of wanting to move forward which is fine but a blanket statement for all is one that doesn’t fit the good for all categories
Imo of course

Side note you can cover a lot with a Barnes if one understands it’s limits & better areas of application to begin with but also other brands that don’t need as many bandaids on certain areas are the better mousetrap for the situation potentially ahead knowing this is important to me cause I like my bundy rum & why I get a extra sip or 2 in as the better bullets have given me that luxury for the job they were used for
Some of those were Barnes a lot other brands also

Cheers

 

[Beck]

Personally I use Rhino solid shank expanders and Rhino brass meplat solids for elephant.

Swift A frame, Bearclaw, Bitteroot all perform well. Woodleigh for doubles at lower velocity.
Any ither brass meplat solids will work for elephant.

Any bonded bullet with proper controlled expansion and maximum weight retention has always worked best on dg for me

What do you use on Buffalo?

 

[IvW]

Only Rhino solid shank expanders no solids. If one cannot get the job done with expanding hullets it is the wrong one for the job.

 

[JG26Irish_2]

In almost 10 years of guiding hunting safaris in African countries, examining, collecting, and recording everything I can about hunting bullets and their actual performance against resilient African wildlife, I've discovered that monolithic expanding bullets, even the highest quality ones, when fired at the sides of animals at tight angles (back to front or front to back), can fail! What happens is that the tip deforms due to the lateral entry angle, and then the small opening responsible for initiating expansion closes! The bullet doesn't open and penetrate like a solid bullet. However, it doesn't behave like a solid bullet, often having an irregular trajectory within the animal.

I love the Barnes TSX and especially the TTSX designs for buffalo. For every two or three hundred that work perfectly, I've had one that didn't. That's why I continue to use and recommend them.

View attachment 704780

An interesting subject to be sure. I am not in "Love" with the TSX, TTSX, CX type monolithic type of bullets. I do think they serve a specific purpose but also come with their own limitations. The OP states that they often or at least sometimes fail to expand and shares a photo with a dozen or so recovered examples. To be more thorough, I would ask a few questions:

• Caliber, muzzle velocity? in each example case?
• Range from shooter to impact in yards or meters?
• Estimated velocity at impact?
• If the TSX failed to expand and was shot at a reasonable range into the animal, and thus penetrated like a solid (sort of), why did it not penetrate all the way thru the animal and then be lost? How, did you find the bullets unless they were impacting at lower speeds, too slow to expand? It is a logical question.

Based on advice from this forum I have used the Barnes TSX in my 375HH rifles on two safaris and used Trophy Bonded Bear Claw once on deer and also used A-Frames once on Kudu all with more or less satisfactory results but...

In my opinion, none of those bullets were extraordinarily impressive in their terminal performance. They all killed the animals but all of them walked or ran for a few seconds to several minutes after the first shot and some required additional follow up shots. I have also used Barnes TTSX and Hornady CX on Safari with a 7mm/08 for PG with outstanding results. What is the difference? Well one is that the 7mm velocity is substantially higher than the 2580 fps of my 375.

IMO - the copper mono bullets need speed to function at their best. Even when everything works right, they do not kill as quickly as say bonded lead core bullets of same or similar weight, speed and caliber. They expand less at longer ranges but still penetrate about the same depth regardless of range within practical limits.

So, why use the monos at all? Because, they do work well for a wide range of applications if you accept that most animals may require a slightly longer tracking job even with a good 1st shot. I limit my shots to a range where the bullet impacts at 2000fps or more to help insure adequate expansion. I also seek to make good broadside or frontal shots for the first shot if possible. I am not yet convinced that a big, slow, controlled expansion bullet is going to kill PG faster than a smaller, faster, option such as 7mm Mag, 300wm or 300HH for example. Even the old 308 and 30-06 are impressive when deployed with bonded lead core ammo such as Fed Fusion, Swift Scirocco or other similar ammo as long as you keep ranges reasonable.

Other controlled expansion bullets can fail to expand when shot into thin skinned or light game. Example: I shot a deer with a 250g TBBC bullet out of my 375HH at a range of about 70y. This round is fast for a 375 with a MV of about 2690fps. All of the evidence in the body of the deer would indicate that the bullet did not expand and penciled thru the beast doing very little damage at all. The deer dropped in its tracks due to a 0.375" hole in its heart and both lungs, so it cannot be called a failure but my regular 270 deer rifle routinely does far more damage on deer.

I have used Barnes TSX to take both Wildebeest and Cape Buffalo but both examples required multiple follow up shots. I have used Fed Fusion 308 bonded core 180g ammo to take five African PG at ranges from 20y to 200y and ALL were one shot kills and most dropped in their tracks and only one of those was spined due to a poor snap shot made in the dark by me under high stress. I used 7mm Barnes TSX and Hornady CX to take four PG animals and ALL required coup de gras shots to finish the job. One required four follow up shots. None of the animals were lost but I wondered what would have happened had I used the Fusion? I loaded Fusions for the last two days of the hunt but did not get to try them.

Bullets do strange things when they hit flesh and bone and sometimes the result is unexpected. No bullet is 100% effective. Cup and core can fragment on bone or at very high velocity. Monos can fail to expand or the petals break off. Bonded Core? Does not expand as violently as cup and core and may not expand enough or fast enough at long range. Pick your poison.

300g TSX the left hit at 160y and the right one at 10y​

 

[Fordy]

Gday JG26irish_2

An interesting subject to be sure. I am not in "Love" with the TSX, TTSX, CX type monolithic type of bullets. I do think they serve a specific purpose but also come with their own limitations. The OP states that they often or at least sometimes fail to expand and shares a photo with a dozen or so recovered examples. To be more thorough, I would ask a few questions:

• Caliber, muzzle velocity? in each example case?
• Range from shooter to impact in yards or meters?
• Estimated velocity at impact?
• If the TSX failed to expand and was shot at a reasonable range into the animal, and thus penetrated like a solid (sort of), why did it not penetrate all the way thru the animal and then be lost? How, did you find the bullets unless they were impacting at lower speeds, too slow to expand? It is a logical question.

Based on advice from this forum I have used the Barnes TSX in my 375HH rifles on two safaris and used Trophy Bonded Bear Claw once on deer and also used A-Frames once on Kudu all with more or less satisfactory results but...

In my opinion, none of those bullets were extraordinarily impressive in their terminal performance. They all killed the animals but all of them walked or ran for a few seconds to several minutes after the first shot and some required additional follow up shots. I have also used Barnes TTSX and Hornady CX on Safari with a 7mm/08 for PG with outstanding results. What is the difference? Well one is that the 7mm velocity is substantially higher than the 2580 fps of my 375.

IMO - the copper mono bullets need speed to function at their best. Even when everything works right, they do not kill as quickly as say bonded lead core bullets of same or similar weight, speed and caliber. They expand less at longer ranges but still penetrate about the same depth regardless of range within practical limits.

So, why use the monos at all? Because, they do work well for a wide range of applications if you accept that most animals may require a slightly longer tracking job even with a good 1st shot. I limit my shots to a range where the bullet impacts at 2000fps or more to help insure adequate expansion. I also seek to make good broadside or frontal shots for the first shot if possible. I am not yet convinced that a big, slow, controlled expansion bullet is going to kill PG faster than a smaller, faster, option such as 7mm Mag, 300wm or 300HH for example. Even the old 308 and 30-06 are impressive when deployed with bonded lead core ammo such as Fed Fusion, Swift Scirocco or other similar ammo as long as you keep ranges reasonable.

Other controlled expansion bullets can fail to expand when shot into thin skinned or light game. Example: I shot a deer with a 250g TBBC bullet out of my 375HH at a range of about 70y. This round is fast for a 375 with a MV of about 2690fps. All of the evidence in the body of the deer would indicate that the bullet did not expand and penciled thru the beast doing very little damage at all. The deer dropped in its tracks due to a 0.375" hole in its heart and both lungs, so it cannot be called a failure but my regular 270 deer rifle routinely does far more damage on deer.

I have used Barnes TSX to take both Wildebeest and Cape Buffalo but both examples required multiple follow up shots. I have used Fed Fusion 308 bonded core 180g ammo to take five African PG at ranges from 20y to 200y and ALL were one shot kills and most dropped in their tracks and only one of those was spined due to a poor snap shot made in the dark by me under high stress. I used 7mm Barnes TSX and Hornady CX to take four PG animals and ALL required coup de gras shots to finish the job. One required four follow up shots. None of the animals were lost but I wondered what would have happened had I used the Fusion? I loaded Fusions for the last two days of the hunt but did not get to try them.

Bullets do strange things when they hit flesh and bone and sometimes the result is unexpected. No bullet is 100% effective. Cup and core can fragment on bone or at very high velocity. Monos can fail to expand or the petals break off. Bonded Core? Does not expand as violently as cup and core and may not expand enough or fast enough at long range. Pick your poison.

View attachment 706746

300g TSX the left hit at 160y and the right one at 10y​

Very good analysis well done

Do you guys not use a shedding mono ?

They cover more bases than the others ( just like a c&c be careful on choice as you can get train wrecks on those if not careful of the correct matching the pill to the critter yes no silver bullet but a good choice opens up way more angles )

Simplest way I can put it on the old rule of thumb I’ve seen others use something similar & along your lines of thinking if I’m correct

With a mono hit bone with a frangible stay off it
With a frangible hit in the crease with a mono stay away from it

A shedding is a lot like the fushion or other pills like partition as you have the luxury to shoot both with better than average results than the rule of thumb above average yet the shedding mono is a step above these

& the 2000 minimum impact your using doesn’t apply to all the shedding & gave some better results than some of the best frangible in the 1700 to 1850 impact range but personally I don’t like any design below this level as killing is more delayed than plus the 2000 mark

I’m not aligned with any bullet company I just like seeing what is what & the better mousetrap

Cheers

 

[JG26Irish_2]

Gday JG26irish_2

Very good analysis well done

Do you guys not use a shedding mono ?

They cover more bases than the others ( just like a c&c be careful on choice as you can get train wrecks on those if not careful of the correct matching the pill to the critter yes no silver bullet but a good choice opens up way more angles )

A shedding is a lot like the fushion or other pills like partition as you have the luxury to shoot both with better than average results than the rule of thumb above average yet the shedding mono is a step above these

& the 2000 minimum impact your using doesn’t apply to all the shedding & gave some better results than some of the best frangible in the 1700 to 1850 impact range but personally I don’t like any design below this level as killing is more delayed than plus the 2000 mark

Cheers

Fordy - Oy & thanks for the insightful comments. Please elaborate if you can.

I am relatively new to the copper mono camp. Most of my big game hunting career, I used a 165g Nosler BT in 308 or a 130g Nosler BT in a 270 for my critter gitters with nearly 100% good results and nary a lost animal, but...

I was hunting mostly deer and hogs only and was shooting almost exclusively at ranges under 100y with only one or two notable exceptions. The Ballistic tip is not bonded and expands violently. But with deer we usually shot behind the shoulder and did not need to penetrate heavy bone. It was a tried and true formula. Unlike Africa, I only got the chance to fire shots on game once or twice each season and then only if I encountered a good shootable animal that year. Compared to Africa, it could take me decades to amass the same hunting/shooting experience one would get in a single 8-10 day Safari. Still six yrs ago, I took a poor frontal shot on a buck at 80y and the 130g BT hit the shoulder bone and exploded causing a huge gapping hole in the upper shoulder but only a tiny fragment penetrated one lung. The deer died and was recovered after a long tracking job over 400y long but in my view that was a glaring bullet failure. Mostly my fault for taking a shot at a bad angle and not placing the shot well. It was an eye opener.

Enter Africa. 3yrs ago, I began prepping for a Safari in Africa and was testing loads for my 308 and 375HH. TSX and A-Frames were recommended and I tried both. My 308 did not shoot the 180 A-frames well but loved the 180g Fusions and so, I took those. For years, Fusion was my practice ammo because it was cheap here and it shot well. I had never hunted with it. Mostly out of ignorance. I was stunned how well it performed on game in Africa and now it is one of my go-to choices.

The TSX performed OK with my 375 in Africa but as I learn more, I think it did everything it would normally do. I had Woodleigh cup point solid "Hydros" for Buffalo but my PH asked me not to use them. TSX did the job.

This year, I took TSX, CX and Fusion ammo with me for my 7mm/08 this year as a learning exercise. Not because I liked them. Mainly once more it was because my rifle shot the monos the best. The copper monos worked ok once again.

As for the shedding monos? I have never used them but not because of any aversion. I just never had a situation that indicated that they were the best choice. Maybe I should expand my horizons and give them a try? My understanding is that they work reliably over a wide range of speeds and may kill a little faster than a typical expanding copper mono? Basically you get 4-6 shorter diverging wound channels from the petals and a larger main channel from the core. I have not seen many loads for these in factory ammo and I do not normally reload for non-volume hunting rifles since I might only shoot a box or two thru them in a year or more.

338 Compact Mag on left and 7mm Mag on right​

 

[Fordy]

Gday JG26irish_2

Fordy - Oy & thanks for the insightful comments. Please elaborate if you can.

I’ll try & please ask if I’m unclear as I have a habit of mincing words up

I am relatively new to the copper mono camp. Most of my big game hunting career, I used a 165g Nosler BT in 308 or a 130g Nosler BT in a 270 for my critter gitters with nearly 100% good results and nary a lost animal, but...

I like your but

I was hunting mostly deer and hogs only and was shooting almost exclusively at ranges under 100y with only one or two notable exceptions. The Ballistic tip is not bonded and expands violently. But with deer we usually shot behind the shoulder and did not need to penetrate heavy bone. It was a tried and true formula. Unlike Africa, I only got the chance to fire shots on game once or twice each season and then only if I encountered a good shootable animal that year. Compared to Africa, it could take me decades to amass the same hunting/shooting experience one would get in a single 8-10 day Safari. Still six yrs ago, I took a poor frontal shot on a buck at 80y and the 130g BT hit the shoulder bone and exploded causing a huge gapping hole in the upper shoulder but only a tiny fragment penetrated one lung. The deer died and was recovered after a long tracking job over 400y long but in my view that was a glaring bullet failure.

your observations are very good

Mostly my fault for taking a shot at a bad angle and not placing the shot well. It was an eye opener.

The greatest step you’ve done in my eyes is talk & own it thankyou although I’d say not your fault , yes a eye opener but as I look @it as a learning experience that grows us & by that it’s more ( with respect) you didn’t understand the weaknesses of that pill on that shot placement & a lot in this & one I’ve also seen so many say they will place the shot with complete accuracy & one day it will go pear shape either from us ( so much in us ) the critter or climatic /terrain conditions ( this is often not talked of for fear imo , personally I am not perfect & far from it so openly talk about it )

Enter Africa. 3yrs ago, I began prepping for a Safari in Africa and was testing loads for my 308 and 375HH. TSX and A-Frames were recommended and I tried both. My 308 did not shoot the 180 A-frames well but loved the 180g Fusions and so, I took those. For years, Fusion was my practice ammo because it was cheap here and it shot well. I had never hunted with it. Mostly out of ignorance. I was stunned how well it performed on game in Africa and now it is one of my go-to choices.

Once again your openness is great to see

The TSX performed OK with my 375 in Africa but as I learn more, I think it did everything it would normally do. I had Woodleigh cup point solid "Hydros" for Buffalo but my PH asked me not to use them. TSX did the job.

This year, I took TSX, CX and Fusion ammo with me for my 7mm/08 this year as a learning exercise. Not because I liked them. Mainly once more it was because my rifle shot the monos the best. The copper monos worked ok once again.

This is great as your covering bases on the accuracy side & the pills
( listen to your ph is advisable not saying it’s it’s gospel & need to follow as if one has facts & i don’t mean a “i think or it worked well on the deer I shot etc” it’s studying wound’s & understanding strengths & weaknesses in the pill itself ) so yes worked ok but go back to the start & see this whole process started on that one shot had you questioning yourself where now you are using pills that just plain cover more bases but where are their weaknesses & understanding that is key to hopefully stop that one off occurring again as it will to someone
Which you enter into below the next potential level up

As for the shedding monos? I have never used them but not because of any aversion. I just never had a situation that indicated that they were the best choice. Maybe I should expand my horizons and give them a try?

Homework is needed or potentially you’ll go back to the bad result you got initially in this post & defining best is also a hotly debated topic as dead to some is all that’s wanted or needed & to another it can be a total train wreck

It’s why getting emotions out & actual terminal in is the key to getting a better outcome

My understanding is that they work reliably over a wide range of speeds and may kill a little faster than a typical expanding copper mono?

Once again homework is needed as it can go the other way

Basically you get 4-6 shorter diverging wound channels from the petals and a larger main channel from the core.

Yes great start but understanding the shape charge of those petals & does the pill build pressure in the critter or even create it ( pop as I call it ) & a huge amount in it that is only just starting to be understood by more but others don’t have a clue or worse of just selling

I have not seen many loads for these in factory ammo and I do not normally reload for non-volume hunting rifles since I might only shoot a box or two thru them in a year or more.

View attachment 706963

338 Compact Mag on left and 7mm Mag on right​

Yes that’s a issue for sure on factory loaded as to why is a couple ways imo
Lack of understanding or the market isn’t there from a sales point
But companies like weatherby are offering the likes of hammer in some of their products but once again is this the best choice ??( Also some smaller boutique factory loaded companies are around for the 1or so boxes a year person that may be a option or a friend may also have most of the gear or the likes of some already produced mass factory offerings may already be there that are not a shedding as the job they cover is a better alternative so matching the catch to the hatch is important)
Imo not as the fundamentals of the terminals that they are showing has gone backwards & the impact to tip durations of time & distance have increased from what hammer started out doing
Another time on that but was sad to see that being the direction they headed

So in conclusion there are some very good shedding pills ( & hammer still has some ) but equally some mediocre to completely bad & then bring in the individual level of acceptance & now we have the discussions that have popped up here once again
Which is a true shame as the wealth of knowledge that is here is outstanding move that to how the pill actually worked then the possible is on another level but the old mine is better than yours takes hold or it’s a dead critter or I’ve not had that occur rears it’s ugly head & around we go again

Where I like to assess a pill on what it’s actually done & not what I’m told & here’s a example of comparing some different projectiles on their merits yes measurements are extremely important

This is one small part of being able to put together a pill that offers a cover more base’s that we will encounter in the field

Sorry for the long winded response but I cut myself short lol yes a lot in it that’s for sure
Hopefully it helps

Cheers

 

[JG26Irish_2]

Gday JG26irish_2


The greatest step you’ve done in my eyes is talk & own it thankyou although I’d say not your fault , yes a eye opener but as I look @it as a learning experience that grows us & by that it’s more ( with respect) you didn’t understand the weaknesses of that pill on that shot placement & a lot in this & one I’ve also seen so many say they will place the shot with complete accuracy & one day it will go pear shape either from us ( so much in us ) the critter or climatic /terrain conditions ( this is often not talked of for fear imo , personally I am not perfect & far from it so openly talk about it )

I think it was a case of the fact that as bullets go, the cup and core works great, until it doesn't. It expands the fastest and most violently of all but if it impacts heavy bone with a smallish bullet, it can fragment and fail to penetrate as was the case on my deer. About any other bullet design would have worked better.

This is great as your covering bases on the accuracy side & the pills
( listen to your ph is advisable not saying it’s it’s gospel & need to follow as if one has facts & i don’t mean a “i think or it worked well on the deer I shot etc” it’s studying wound’s & understanding strengths & weaknesses in the pill itself ) so yes worked ok but go back to the start & see this whole process started on that one shot had you questioning yourself where now you are using pills that just plain cover more bases but where are their weaknesses & understanding that is key to hopefully stop that one off occurring again as it will to someone
Which you enter into below the next potential level up

I always take advice thru the filter of my own experience but greatly value the advice from the African PH's, even the very young ones. If you look at the levels of practice and experience a young PH must amass just to get his license and start guiding clients. It is more hunting experience than any hunter would get in a lifetime of big game hunting experience and only increases with time. My PH has been a professional for 10yrs and hunts more than 200days per year. So, when my PH speaks, I listen. If I disagree, I will challenge him to elaborate and convince me. In the end, I have to make my own decision but all things being equal, I went with the TSX for Buffalo because:

• They shot great in my rifle - Accuracy
• I had 10 boxes of them - Availability
• The MV was faster than advertised at almost 2600fps - Performance
• My PH liked and recommended them to me - Professional Advice
• I only had a few reloads with A-Frames which were my other alternative - Availability Lacking

But companies like weatherby are offering the likes of hammer in some of their products but once again is this the best choice ??( Also some smaller boutique factory loaded companies are around for the 1or so boxes a year person that may be a option or a friend may also have most of the gear or the likes of some already produced mass factory offerings may already be there that are not a shedding as the job they cover is a better alternative so matching the catch to the hatch is important)

So, Hammer is one of the shedding bullets? What are some of the others?

Where I like to assess a pill on what it’s actually done & not what I’m told & here’s a example of comparing some different projectiles on their merits yes measurements are extremely important
View attachment 707446
This is one small part of being able to put together a pill that offers a cover more base’s that we will encounter in the field

The tables of data are impressive. Where did you get all of that info? I enjoy geeking out on bullet data and have for decades but never to that extent. In summary the following is my current level of understanding of each bullet type and their fit into the range of applications. If I got any wrong or if others wish to add to or elaborate, please do add to it:

Bullet Type & Application:

1. FMJ - Solid: Non-Expanding bullet. Penetrates very well but does not expand in soft tissue. May tumble in some cases. Wound cavity is usually the diameter of the bullet or slightly less. Used for military, target and some DG hunting. i.e. Elephant with 458 Lott.
   
   
2. Cup Point Solid: The convex "Cup" point solid provides a larger permanent wound channel than the traditional solid bullet for DG applications. Usually 2x bullet diameter. It also penetrates in a straighter line than the conical point solid and is much less likely to tumble. This design may be considered to be a better option for large bore dangerous game where penetration and precise placement are critical. i.e. Elephant, Hippo, etc. Ex: North Fork CPS, Woodleigh Hydro Solid.
   
   
3. Cup & Core: Copper gilding metal outer jacket around a lead alloy core. The thickness of the jacket and lead alloy used can affect the speed of expansion some. At closer ranges and higher impact velocity the cup and core may separate forming two wound cavities or will shed much of its weight. Can fragment on impact with large bone which will limit the depth of penetration is some cases. Good for smaller varmints and light skinned larger game such as deer. When it works the cup and core often results in the most internal damage and the fastest kill. Not the best choice for ultra fast cartridges combined with shorter ranges. Consider avoiding shots where impact velocity is exceeding 3000fps or where bullet weigh is light for the game being pursued. A good choice for long range shots where a tougher bullet might fail to expand. Good choice for deer, antelope, coyote, etc. Ex: Remington CorLokt, Hornady SST.
   
   
4. Bonded lead core: Better choice for high speed, close range impacts. Expands up to 2.5x diameter. Typical penetration is ~24" for a heavy for caliber bullet. Slightly less temp cavity damage compared to cup n core but often creates a larger permanent wound channel due to the extremely large expansion diameters. Usually retains 90% or more of the bullet weight. Not the best choice for very long shots where the large expansion may reduce penetration to minimal levels. Good choice for fast magnum calibers since it is less likely to frag. Keep impact velocity at or above 2000fps to insure good expansion and depth of penetration. Ex: Nosler AB, Swift Scirocco, Federal Fusion.
   
   
5. Partition Bullet - A hybrid design which offers a soft lead core frontal portion to expand on impact with a tough shank rear portion to drive deep for good penetration. May or may not be bonded core and may or may not be lead filled or solid monolithic shank. Nosler Partition and Swift A-Frame being two very well known options that are VERY different from one another. These are designed to fill a wider range of hunting needs and applications while providing good terminal wounding effects with good penetration of larger, tougher game animals. Some rifles may not shoot them well. Partition expands quickly and often sheds the frontal core. A-Frame is controlled expansion with bonded cores for DG applications.
   
   
6. Expanding copper monolithic: Known for extremely good penetration with adequate expansion. Expands less than the partition types but penetrates deeper. Usually expands to 2.2x or 2.0x at close ranges and under 2.0x at longer ranges. This self adjustment of the expansion compensates for drops in impact velocity at longer ranges, thus better insures adequate penetration while delivering better, larger permanent wound cavities than solids and almost as good as bonded bullets all while penetrating better. A good choice for both very long range as well as very close range with both magnum and non-magnum cartridges. Some rifles may not stabilize the very long bullets for typical grain weights for caliber. If this happens, try dropping down a weight size. Often lighter bullets will perform better for caliber with monolithic bullets. Due to the mono design these often shoot very accurately in most rifles. With smaller wound channels but very good penetration, the monolithic bullets may not kill with the sudden shock power of some others but will kill consistently for a wider range of plausible scenarios encountered by hunters. Especially in open terrain where longer shots may be more likely. Less likely to damage meat and will not lead contaminate meat at all. So a good choice for food hunters. Ex: Barnes TSX, TTSX, Hornady CX.
   
   
7. Expanding copper petal shedding monolithic: Designed to expand rapidly and then shed the petals forming many small diverging wound channels over a shorter depth and a single bore diameter wound channel by the shank of the bullet that usually penetrates all the way thru the animal. Petals will often but not always penetrate into the vitals of the animal on a broadside shot but if large bone is hit the shank will still break thru to the vitals even when the petals do not. Good choice for long and short range and for magnum and non-magnum rifles. Creates more damage than the traditional expanding monolithic along the first 12-18" of the wound channel. A way to increase the wounding potential of a copper mono bullet while retaining most of its desired features. (Author lacks the experience to comment on the accuracy or reliability of terminal performance of this bullet type. We might theorize that the shotgun diverging pattern of the shed petals could make this type a better long range bullet since to a small degree it might compensate for a less than perfect shot on game. But, this is pure speculation on my part.)

If a hunter knowns the conditions where he is hunting, he can choose the best bullet for the task. If he knows not or is forced by conditions to hunt a variety of terrain and conditions, then he can choose a bullet that covers the bases for a wide range of situations. Conditions, caliber, and planned prey all factor into the choice each time.

 

[AckleyHunter]

It expands the fastest and most violently of all but if it impacts heavy bone with a smallish bullet, it can fragment and fail to penetrate as was the case on my deer.

This isn't as big a problem as people think. Norma put out two really good videos testing bonded vs non bonded bullet impact on bone. I think they got a result they were not really expecting in the first video and assumed the non bonded bullet would fail. You can see they left out the analysis on that. The second video has me thinking I would rather shoot through bone than not, seeing how there is more damage after stiking something hard. People who shoot OTM style bullets often aim for the bone, but I am not a fan of the OTM.

 

[AckleyHunter]

Bullet Type & Application

This is also a good video showing different bullet construction in gel.

 

[grand veneur]

In summary, no matter what bullet you use, the end result will be in this cases the same: the deer will be dead.

The same applies to buffalo, which is so often the reason of controversy and passionate debate. What is most important is the choice of a cartridge suitable for the hunted species, the bullet weight and the impact velocity. If the shot placement is correct, the bullet construction would not play the absolute predominant role as some theorists of this Forum believe. Use enough gun and cartridge, and don't shoot game with cartridges that are marginal for the species. Then you have less to worry about the design of the bullets.

 

[JG26Irish_2]

In summary, no matter what bullet you use, the end result will be in this cases the same: the deer will be dead.

The same applies to buffalo, which is so often the reason of controversy and passionate debate. What is most important is the choice of a cartridge suitable for the hunted species, the bullet weight and the impact velocity. If the shot placement is correct, the bullet construction would not play the absolute predominant role as some theorists of this Forum believe. Use enough gun and cartridge, and don't shoot game with cartridges that are marginal for the species. Then you have less to worry about the design of the bullets.

Well said, Hear Hear! Also to AckleyHunter, the Norma videos are educational. I especially liked the last one you posted with the four distinct bullet types and how they presented the data without attempting to editorialize to us what the data means. The cup & core types do work very well until, as I said they don't. But, it should be emphasized that they do not fail nearly as often as some folks want to believe. I hunted for more than 40yrs before I had my first failure and IMO it was 100% because I took a shat at a bad angle, hurried the shot and misplaced the bullet. Had I placed it where I intended the result would be a deer dead right there. Even so, I still put the deer in the freezer.

Another observation from the videos is that copper mono bullets dump far more energy that some folks seem to think. I had seen this in the field on game but was still not super convinced. Having seen the videos, I think my opinion of the monos, may have improved somewhat. They tend to shoot very well and at least in the case of the Barnes factory ammo I have tested, it chronos about a good as any match grade handloaded ammo, I have ever seen. With actual velocity being at or above box numbers and std deviation figures that are 2-6 which is stellar consistency for factory box ammo. It is mostly why I stopped reloading for my hunting rifles. I struggle to get SD's in the teens with most of my reloads.

One item that I failed to discuss earlier was the value of ballistic tips in hunting bullets. I see these as two fold:

1. BT's improve the BC of the projectile and thus improve how flat it shoots and also delivers more energy down range for a given weight and caliber.
   
   
2. BT's also, may often improve the way a projectile opens up and expands on impact, thus improving the terminal effects of the bullet on game. This is more evident at longer ranges.

So, if there is a lesson to be learned, it is this: When choosing a bullet, for longer range shots, a ballistic tipped bullet may improve your performance on game when long range shots are required. This being true with non-bonded, bonded and mono type bullets. So, is there a down side to using a BT? Not much in my opinion. It can cause a bullet to open faster at long range and thus dump more energy early in the wound path. But, my own experience with Nosler non-bonded BT bullets at close range on deer show them to be very effective even when the cup and core separate. The Norma vids would seem to support that observation. All this would seem to support the practice of choosing the bullet that shoots best in your rifle unless you are going for Dangerous Game or Extremely tough critters. Then a bonded or mono might give you a small advantage. Good stuff.

 

[Daisy]

Plenty of data out there about TSX doing this. Thanks for adding more.

The pictures of people showing their one perfectly mushroomed bullet are great. But add very little to the debate. A good and real percentage of the time, the the tsx will just pencil through. Most of the time the animal will still die, but it can cause some rodeos for sure.

Lead will always be king. If you just have to use monometal, use CEB.

 

[Fordy]

Gday JG26Irish_2
For some reason I can’t get the quote button to work
So to post #92
Nice reply & thoughts & application
Well done

Some other types of shedding I’ve used are
Ceb ( laser, mth , maximus, raptor )
Apex
Gpa
Leigh defense
Tarvas
McGuire ( has a foot in both camps)
Titan

Now you’ll get shedding in the likes of oep ,fox , gscustom , Barnes , spartan , viper ( bush supreme, plains supreme) peregrine, Hasler , badlands , tigershark , hornady gmx, virtus also if you impact the pill @ a threshold beyond its design & capabilities
& no doubt some other mushroom monos that I’ve tested but not taken them past the individual threshold limits but once you do you’ll see the performance drop off & become erratic now they will still kill yes but here’s where some people accept that others dislike a longer run than average which is another great topic & one i think for another day
But overall if you want to use a shedding one is better off using a dedicated one but then depending on caliber & style to the use intention it’s extremely hard to get a one fits all especially when some companies don’t have all caliber options

So choose wisely is my advice as it is with pretty well any brand / style

The data sheets i provided were from a cull over 3 odd weeks I did & helped from a couple of other people the times we broke down into a few zones & it’s one that was better left as we put them than individually but if you would like them a pm will sort those out
The property this occurred on was to be completely devoid of bovines & what we were able to do once we worked out a more simpler solution on gathering the data on a way quicker basis & one that a pm will sort that out also

The adult bovines gave some very good data also ( mostly with larger calibers ) but on the whole no where near the autopsies carried out on them as it’s a huge effort doing those big bodies & my body just can’t handle that anymore & this was @ the request of some people on where the likes of ea particular pill preformed for longrange & even though I’m not a fan of it anymore I thought it would be good to basically see & one before my full retirement of testing occurs be some icing on the cake for me personally
The surprise was the apex as upto that stage of testing I’ve done nothing came close to the frangible but it was quite interesting & I’ll dig up some terminal photos to go with those charts ( they were put together by a lovely gentleman in the USA as I’m not tech savvy so a huge thanks must go to him

Those are a snapshot of what I’ve gathered over around 30 years worth ( I shot professionally for around 10 years & serious numbers then & one it compiles a few critters over those years now I’ll not state the numbers I take on a annual basis today even though it’s way less than years gone by it still seems to ruffle feathers so I stay away as I don’t like the way it usually turns out so please accept my apology on that

On your bullet types & application
That’s a nice list & one I’ll come back to as some little snippets that on my interpretation could be fine tuned a little
I’ll not just say I’ll show to the best of my ability & please question me if I’m not clear & challenge it also as it’s one that by that we both may learn & move the knowledge base higher & then the application we use a pill in gives us better overall preformance

Cheers

 

[Fordy]

Gday @AckleyHunter to your post # 93&94 as for some reason the quote button won’t work anyway

I learned a longtime ago that gel results you can’t trust as it’s a reference tool only but one that you’ll get a different result eventually that I guarantee as gel don’t run lol
Now I’m not having a go just stating that be careful on watching these & relying on them

Now it’s not only wounds that kill it’s how they kill that’s the important stuff to understand as here’s a 375 ceb maximus

that while it cut holes in critter after critter they just ran on average 43 yards on over 50 critters within a 800 velocity impact range of 2800 to 3600 impacts
Now move to this one & that’s a prototype & a 30 cal

& it’s secured a bangflop non cns ratio in the 80% range now that’s pretty impressive with a average of 11 yards but only 31 of these critters so far between 2600&3000 impacts & a couple of those were bad shots as I was testing for lethality on very marginal shots so not a true indicator of yardage runs on these sorry
Now these are not just perfect broadside analysis as to do a full test in my world you should look @ the variations we see in the field on angles & different resistances
Personally I like 10 critters minimum which comprise of
3 broadside
3 quarter too
4 quarter away ( 2x left side 2x right side) @ roughly the same impact speed & if a cns impact the information is not recorded as it gives false/swayed information & initially I was doing them in 200 fps impact ranges & today especially the bottom end you can see patterns of ea 100 fps impact range especially when a pill is about to fall of the perch terminally

This has given a very reliable indicator of what is doing what & where , but nothing is guaranteed but on watching where those outliers are you can hone in on them & really test the projectiles capability & capacities that gives a way higher level of reliability

@grand v
Makes some very good points but also to just talk dead is open to interpretation
Here’s some pretty good examples of dead some months after the initial shot & id call them pretty well on the money with placement
The fallow doe I’m confident as I knew this one well & no one else shot deer on that property unless they came via the sea route lol

Next part we hear the keep off the bone with a frangible & hit bone with the monos

This is not so much folklore as it definitely has merits as you can see in these pictures

& the vision of it on the drone is pretty telling on thesmall Doe
Now definitely you won’t get it ea & everytime & when you understand why IT’s occurred you’ll understand on why the old folklore has merit & just going more weight or sectional density won’t stop it yes help but stop no way as here’s a 225gr 30 cal eldx

@Daisy id beg to differ on lead is king & while ceb is a consistent mono it’s not the best in some calibers but pretty well has the market leader title to itself on reliability & killing efficiency of plus 375 calibers & rightly so as in those nothing else has come close

accessing a projectiles capability over various resistances is the better way forward Imo it’s just hard to get reliable/credible information & then it’s hard for us as humans to except change but also some are just happy with what they use which I cool but most of the guys& gals I know who take that road know their limitations or have the luxury of not needing a quicker kill so once again ea to their own

I mean no offence to all above
Cheers

 

[JG26Irish_2]

Now it’s not only wounds that kill it’s how they kill that’s the important stuff to understand as here’s a 375 ceb maximus
View attachment 708234
Secured a bangflop non cns ratio in the 80% range now that’s pretty impressive

I am familiar with the cutting edge bullets but have never used them or seen them in the USA in factory loaded ammo despite CEB being a US company. The terminal results using the CEB Maximus in the 375 was shall we say, impressive?

Just to make sure that I am understanding your reply correctly, did you report that you observed a bang-flop result about 80% of the time while discounting any shots which impacted the central nervous system? "cns"

There are so many different CEB bullets: Raptor, Maximus, ER Raptor, TSG Safari Raptor, etc. It makes it difficult to understand which are best for what application. And despite them being a USA company, the lack of any factory loaded ammo outside of the limited offerings from CEB themselves limits my use of them. Could you identify which of the CEB product line you are getting the good results with?

Next part we hear the keep off the bone with a frangible & hit bone with the monos
This is not so much folklore as it definitely has merits as you can see in these pictures

If I understand you, the message is that shooting bone with cup n core bullets can lead to failures? But shooting bone with monos often increases their lethality? If that is true it does seem to contradict the bone in GEL tests reported by the Norma engineers in the videos posted earlier. Just wondering what you think on this? I do agree that data on animals is better than data on gel tests but it is also filled with more variables making it harder to interpret. Better but messy. Your culling tests provide a great insight.

Now definitely you won’t get it ea & everytime & when you understand why IT’s occurred you’ll understand on why the old folklore has merit & just going more weight or sectional density won’t stop it yes help but stop no way as here’s a 225gr 30 cal eldx
View attachment 708235

@Daisy id beg to differ on lead is king & while ceb is a consistent mono it’s not the best in some calibers but pretty well has the market leader title to itself on reliability & killing efficiency of plus 375 calibers & rightly so as in those nothing else has come close

Could you offer more detail on why you believe that the CEB (which one? Maxiums, Raptor, etc) is a consistent mono? and why is the mkt leader on reliability and killing efficiency when used in 375 calibers (and larger?).

I am not disagreeing with you, I do not have the experience to even form a strong opinion. But, I would like to learn more simply because, I have been testing bullets and ammo in my 375HH for an upcoming Nilgai hunt and am looking for a good option to use at ranges from up close out to about 300y and velocities from 2600fps down to about 1950fps. Am looking for best terminal performance at long range/slower velocity since the heavy cover can lead to lost animals. The guide on this hunt has specifically asked us to not use cup n core bullets or TSX type monos because in his view they do not work well enough on this type of game on the terrain on his ranch due to longer shots. He also required us to use 300 win mag or larger calibers. I have the option of using 338wm, 338rcm or 375HH in this case. All shoot well but my 375 and my son's 338 are the most accurate and thus are our most likely choices.

For example the 225g ESP CEB Raptor would appear to be a good choice for longer range hunting with the 338wm rifle but other info on the CEB website shows the 6 petals shedding off and only penetrating about 10-12". When shooting a 600-700lb Nilgai at any angle other than perfect broadside or perfect frontal angle I am concerned that only the solid shank will get deep enough to do the job. Since my prey is many times larger than the deer shown in the pics, I am just looking for more info.

You briefly mentioned culling bovines with the CEB's? Were these domestic cow?, wild buffalo? or other bovines? Please share more as these would be closer in size and weight to my planned application. For reference at the moment my bullet of choice is the Nosler Accubond 300g or the Trophy Bonded Bearclaw 250g in the 375HH and the Trophy Bonded Tip 200g or 225g in the 338wm.