Disappointed In My New 404 Jeffery

[Tex .416]

Sadly, Bengal Bullets, in Oregon not India, has temporarily (hopefully?) ceased production.

1. Why would you hope any manufacturer would go out of business?

2. Looking at the webpage, it says he is not taking new orders at this time, but is filling standing orders. That sounds like he is at his production limit and not wanting to build up a big backlog, which is a prudent move to avoid creating dissatisfied customers.

 

[Rule 303]

1. Why would you hope any manufacturer would go out of business?

2. Looking at the webpage, it says he is not taking new orders at this time, but is filling standing orders. That sounds like he is at his production limit and not wanting to build up a big backlog, which is a prudent move to avoid creating dissatisfied customers.

View attachment 665902

I think he means he is hopeful that it is a temporary closure, not a permanent one.

 

[Rule 303]

My PH says they will ... IF they have enough gas. Brings to mind the transition to steel shot. The stuff can be made to work but must jump up a couple shot sizes and put as much velocity as possible behind it.

Fair enough but I still have a tough time with this. The bullet energy most take as the energy dumped into the animal and has a big effect. I look at the energy and velocity as an indication to penetration capability of the bullet. As we all know as the bullet opens up so the "parachute" effect/drag comes into play.

So given two bullets of the same diameter but different weights, that open to the same size the heavier one will normally penetrate further than the lighter one. The lighter one, even though faster will shed speed and hence, momentum quicker than the heavier one. Yes, there are a multitude of variables to affect ballistic performance from when the bullet hits the animal to when it stops.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

1. Why would you hope any manufacturer would go out of business?

2. Looking at the webpage, it says he is not taking new orders at this time, but is filling standing orders. That sounds like he is at his production limit and not wanting to build up a big backlog, which is a prudent move to avoid creating dissatisfied customers.

View attachment 665902

Sorry for the poor choice of words. The implication was Bengal Bullets had at least temporarily ceased production. I was "hopeful" it was only temporary.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

Fair enough but I still have a tough time with this. The bullet energy most take as the energy dumped into the animal and has a big effect. I look at the energy and velocity as an indication to penetration capability of the bullet. As we all know as the bullet opens up so the "parachute" effect/drag comes into play.

So given two bullets of the same diameter but different weights, that open to the same size the heavier one will normally penetrate further than the lighter one. The lighter one, even though faster will shed speed and hence, momentum quicker than the heavier one. Yes, there are a multitude of variables to affect ballistic performance from when the bullet hits the animal to when it stops.

Yes, the lighter projectile will potentially shed momentum faster. But if the velocity is greater at impact, the added energy can compensate = comparable penetration.

 

[Don416]

I have a 416WSM that shoots bullets about the same as the old 404 loads of 2150fps, which is why I’m reading about the 404. It’s easy to shoot and weighs under 10lbs with 2-7x scope. Like a 12ga slug gun. I say go with the old loads and enjoy.

 

[Don416]

Don’t guides hate muzzle breaks? Anyone attest to that?

 

[ActionBob]

Don’t guides hate muzzle breaks? Anyone attest to that?

Absolutely yes! Can you imagine standing beside a hunter with a muzzle brake, while looking through binos...

 

[Betterinthebush]

Don’t guides hate muzzle breaks? Anyone attest to that?

I detest them.

 

[EfRed]

Well after waiting months and months, I finally picked up the 404 Jeffrey today. I came home, and I immediately went out back and put some rounds down range. Much to my surprise, the recoil was very significant. “Much more than my 416.” After just three rounds, I was ready to put the rifle down. I went to the safe and got the 416 Rigby and shot it a few times. After shooting the Rigby and realizing the recoil was much less, I installed the muzzle brake that came with the new 404. I then shot 3 more rounds and the recoil was significantly less, I would say around 40% less.

“Both ammo was factory Hornady”

The 416 weighs 11 lbs and the 404 weighed in at 9.2.

I found the felt recoil of the 404 very surprising. What are all of you guys think?

Sorry about the disappointment, but I think it's a result of wrong expectation. Same weight bullet, same velocity, same rifle weight and stock = same recoil. The .404s reputation as lower recoil option stems from its initial loadings of a 400 gr. bullet at 2100( or so) fps. Modern .404 Jeffery is loaded to rival .416 Remington and Rigby, so in the same rifle will have the same recoil. In a lighter rifle, the recoil will be worse.

The .404 Jeffery is/was often used for the same purposes as the 450 NE or .458 Lott. These cartridges move a 500 gr bullet at 2150 to 2300 fps. Recoil is, to me, somewhat vicious, though tolerable for hunting. They are the recoil standard to which the .404 Jeffery has often been compared and they recoil much harder than the .404 Jeffery. I think this comparison is where much of the .404s rep as a softer recoiling cartridge came from, and deservedly so. How well the .404 Jeffery stacks up against these near half-inch cartridges in the field against large/dangerous game is a question hunters need to answer.

I have a .404 Jeffery in a Weatherby Mk 5, Pendelton custom stock with recoil reducers. It fits me better than any other rifle in my collection and shooting it is a pleasure. The only drawback is the limited round capacity in the Weatherby action. Recoil is much reduced compared to my Ruger Safari Magnum .458 Lott, which comes back hard. The .404 is lighter, too.

The stock fit makes a big difference. Wayne York at Oregunsmithing in Pendleton, Oregon fitted mine and it came out great.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

For me 404J with 400 gr @ ~2200 fps out of ~11 lb Mauser is about my threshold for recoil. I have shot my PH's 375 CZ a total of five times over two safaris (including range checks) but not enough to make a valid comparison. I believe it was actually shooting bullets 150 gr lighter than my 404 (and they were VERY effective on two Cape buffalo) so not sure a comparison would be valid anyway (though I know he gassed up those loads significantly). I have watched two individuals fire 416 Rigby and 458 Lott. Enough to convince me I want no part of those guns!

For the life of me I cannot understand why Hornady is loading up their one and only 400 gr 404J factory ammo to propel bullets @ +2300 fps. Seems that unnecessary recoil will just chase people away from those guns and/or ammo for no good reason. Unfortunately their ammo seems to be about all that's available in North America right now.

 

[Tex .416]

For me 404J with 400 gr @ ~2200 fps out of ~11 lb Mauser is about my threshold for recoil. I have shot my PH's 375 CZ a total of five times over two safaris (including range checks) but not enough to make a valid comparison. I believe it was actually shooting bullets 150 gr lighter than my 404 (and they were VERY effective on two Cape buffalo) so not sure a comparison would be valid anyway (though I know he gassed up those loads significantly). I have watched two individuals fire 416 Rigby and 458 Lott. Enough to convince me I want no part of those guns!

For the life of me I cannot understand why Hornady is loading up their one and only 400 gr 404J factory ammo to propel bullets @ +2300 fps. Seems that unnecessary recoil will just chase people away from those guns and/or ammo for no good reason. Unfortunately their ammo seems to be about all that's available in North America right now.

OH,

you talk often of your .404, why did you not take it on your hunts, but rent a rifle instead?

 

[PerH]

The Germans loaded the 404 at 2300 fps to mimic the .416 Rigby , but one could load it much higher also with 400 grains of one wished for . And it’s a very versatile cartridge to load for . And the 2300ish make it quite a hammer with the 200 fps above the old British data .

 

[Ontario Hunter]

OH,

you talk often of your .404, why did you not take it on your hunts, but rent a rifle instead?

I didn't build the 404 till later. I did hunt buffalo with it on my last safari but didn't connect. Never got a shot. Oh well. Hunting them is always its own reward.

 

[spike.t]

The Germans loaded the 404 at 2300 fps to mimic the .416 Rigby , but one could load it much higher also with 400 grains of one wished for . And it’s a very versatile cartridge to load for . And the 2300ish make it quite a hammer with the 200 fps above the old British data .

You sound like one of those hotrod usa persons..... ...just get a 416 rigby....simple

 

[deewayne2003]

Don’t guides hate muzzle breaks? Anyone attest to that?

Yes, when guiding whitetail hunts I’ve had my ears rang multiple times by hunters who had muzzle brakes on calibers like .270wsm & .300win.

In the words of my PH in Zimbabwe….
“Muzzle brakes are great… they give you something to clamp onto when you cut them off!”

 

[spike.t]

Don’t guides hate muzzle breaks? Anyone attest to that?

Mmm...I will take the 5th on that one....same with most ones I know.....maybe that gives a bit of a clue....

 

[EfRed]

For me 404J with 400 gr @ ~2200 fps out of ~11 lb Mauser is about my threshold for recoil. I have shot my PH's 375 CZ a total of five times over two safaris (including range checks) but not enough to make a valid comparison. I believe it was actually shooting bullets 150 gr lighter than my 404 (and they were VERY effective on two Cape buffalo) so not sure a comparison would be valid anyway (though I know he gassed up those loads significantly). I have watched two individuals fire 416 Rigby and 458 Lott. Enough to convince me I want no part of those guns!

For the life of me I cannot understand why Hornady is loading up their one and only 400 gr 404J factory ammo to propel bullets @ +2300 fps. Seems that unnecessary recoil will just chase people away from those guns and/or ammo for no good reason. Unfortunately their ammo seems to be about all that's available in North America right now.

Nice to have the Hornady load available, but I load mine down to about 2200 fps. Hornady is also guilty of trying to make the good old 35 Whelen into a 300 Weatherby, loading a 200 gr bullet up to 2950 or so. If ther's one good load for the 35 Whelen, its either the 225 gr Federal trophy bonded bearclaw (or new replacement) at 2650 or the Remington Power Point at 2400 fps. These laods are what the 35 Whelen is all about....

 

[PerH]

You sound like one of those hotrod usa persons..... ...just get a 416 rigby....simple

I liked the way of the .404 case could compare with the others , with both smaller case and more in magazine . When I had the .404 some years ago


But I have seen data for 450 grain from a dedicated fellow , he loaded the 450 grain on to at 700 ms .

 

[Odinsraven]

Agreed Toby! “Hope you’re well by the way”

It’s MRC 99 with custom work but not a custom stock. The LOP is 13 3/4 while the Rigby is 14 1/8.

There is your problem