Would a 450 grain .458 Win Mag be a perfectly acceptable standard for elephant?

"If you want more velocity use a 458 Lott.....with 500gr bullet to keep the sd...."
SD was more important with poorly constructed round nose bullets ..
Properly constructed Solids like CEB and Northfork is not a deciding factor
For elephant they are....if you are not a one off hunter.....
 
"If you want more velocity use a 458 Lott.....with 500gr bullet to keep the sd...."
SD was more important with poorly constructed round nose bullets ..
Properly constructed Solids like CEB and Northfork is not a deciding factor
Sorry what I wanted to say in the last sentence..
With properly constructed Solids like CEB sand Northforks "SD" in not a deciding factor
 
Richard Harland had a custom, highly engraved FN Mauser .458 WinMag, and had to rely on whatever defective ammo the department would allow him to use out of old stores,
while his backup had a 450 Rigby well loaded ?
Ron Thomson killed twice as many elephant as Richard Harland (probably more, "... but what is a few thousand elephants among friends ...") and preferred a plain Jane Browning FN Mauser .458 WinMag.
He must have had fresher ammo because he used up the factory stuff faster than most rangers.
 
500 grain CEBs that were going 2,370 fps recovered from a couple of elephants. Bullet technology matters.

full
Are these from the 500 MDM?
 
That’s interesting to see you used a cup point on elephant. Looks like it did exactly what it was supposed to. Well done.
Both PHs had a lot of positive comments about that solid over the 2 week hunt. They said it made an audible slap on heavy animals and lifted dust up all over the animals.
 
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Richard loaded 600-gr bullets in the .505 Gibbs to an MV of 2150 fps.

The .458 WM load data table above was from about 20 years ago.
Note at bottom of table of loads above mentions success of 450-grainers loaded to 2300 fps by Safari Arms ammunition company.
Powders and bullets are even better now than when Richard Harland spoke glowingly of the latest.
I can fire 600-gr bullets from my .458 Winchester Magnum with 3.6" magazine length and get 2150 fps MV, while burning way less powder than the 124 gr that Richard Harland used in his .505 Gibbs.
But I would much rather use a 450-grain CEB brass FN at 2300 fps from the usual 3.4" magazine length.
Easy peasy.

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I have no experience with the cartridge 458 Winchester Magnum and I am a Weatherby fan anyway. Nevertheless, I like Richard Harland's article, especially his comment regarding cartridges for elephant hunting.

I was formerly very skeptical about the performance of the cartridge 458 Winchester Magnum, but I have put some things into perspective with increasing experience through frequent hunting in Africa and contact with various PH. However, as a reloader, I am still skeptical about the performance of this cartridge with the heavy bullets of this caliber class. The powders have not changed much in their performance over the last 30 years. It is true that there are nowadays better bullets and that is why a load with a 450gr bullet seems to be a very good option for the cartridge 458 Winchester Magnum.
 
I suppose you could use 450 solids to "almost" equal effect, but why? The .458 WM and 500 grain bullets are just right together.
 
Some Cogswell and Harrison rifles in .450 3 1/4” nitro express are “440gr bullet 65 cordite MAX”. According to their catalogues this load was 2000fps.
 
I have shot several elephant with .458Win., Federal factory 500 grain Woodleigh and handloads with 480 grain DGS.. It sure works..but I prefer to use a double rifle while hunting them..
 
Richards 458 often failed on eleohant.....Tsuro was always there with a 450 Rigby to back him up..
He used a 458 as it was all that was available from the department....
He is a professional who knows where to shoot elephant as aposed to a once off visiting client....

His personal elephant rifle and the one he prefered using to guide clients is a 505 Gibbs.....with 600gr monolithic solids....not a 458 wm....
IvW,
I don’t like the .458 Winchester Magnum anymore than you do, but to be fair… Richard doesn’t attribute those failures to be due to the inherent shortcomings of the .458 Winchester Magnum. Here’s what he has to say on the matter:
——————————————————————————————————-
”As to the view that my tracker Tsuro had to finish off elephants that I had shot, thus pushing me to get the .505 Gibbs, let’s put the story right!!! The elephant cow herds in the area I was operating in, were renowned for their extremely aggressive attitude and I relate several accounts in my autobiography (The Hunting Imperative ) where I even found them tracking me!!! So, when tackling one of these herds, which I did frequently when tasked with eliminating all elephant and buffalo from large areas of Tsetse Fly country, shooting fast and furious , sometimes putting down 10, 15, even more, elephants in minutes with my Mannlicher Schonaeuer, inevitably I missed the brain on some and they would rise up, thus giving Tsuro a chance to back up with the .450 Rigby double that he carried. There was absolutely NO question of faulty .458 ammunition, simply a missed brain shot.



Furthermore, I only acquired the .505 after leaving the Game Department, for my safari hunting when backing up clients. What a truly magnificent cartridge that is! I used original Kynoch ammunition for some time as the rifle came with a good supply, but later handloaded with the monometal 550 gr Dzombo brass bullets and 135 grs of S385 powder ( the Somchem South African powder). This gave 2200 – 2230 fps. And heavy recoil!!!



Anyway, I continued using my .458 as a Professional Hunter most of the time as I have every confidence in it!”
——————————————————————————————————-

Richard later told me that he used three kinds of ammunition in his .505 Gibbs:
-Original Kynoch 525Gr round nosed steel jacketed FMJ solid factory loads (1978-1980)
- Barnes Old Pattern 600Gr round nosed copper jacketed FMJ solid hand loads (1980-2007)
- DZOMBO Mark VI 550Gr flat nosed brass monometal solid hand loads (very briefly in 2008 before he retired for only a few trials)

Another note for all interested parties. Richard exclusively used one kind of .458 Winchester Magnum ammunition for all his elephant culling. These were FRESH pre ‘69 Winchester Super Speed 500Gr round nosed steel jacketed FMJ solid factory loads (advertised velocity= 2130 FPS, chronographed velocity=2087 FPS).
IMG_2729.jpeg

Between 1970-1978, he was backing up clients with a .500/465 Nitro Express Holland & Holland Royal sidelock ejector and old stocks of Kynoch 480Gr round nosed steel jacketed FMJ solid factory loads.

Through the course of his hunting career, he used ten sporting firearms:
a) A .22 Hi-Power Savage Model 99
b) A .303 British Lee Enfield
c) A 7x57mm Mauser BRNO ZKK600
d) A .30-06 Springfield BSA Majestic
e) A .458 Winchester Magnum BSA Majestic that originally belonged to Paul Grobler (used for most of his private dangerous game hunts until 1972)
f) The game department issued .458 Winchester Magnum Mannlicher Schoenauer
g) A .458 Winchester Magnum Flaig’s built custom FN Mauser (gifted to him by client Zachary Miller in 1972 and toted by Richard as his favorite rifle)
h) A .500/465 Nitro Express Holland & Holland Royale sidelock ejector
i) A .505 George Gibbs Mauser (made in 1927 & acquired in 1978)
j) A 12 gauge 2.5” W.J Jeffery boxlock non ejector side by side


I’d be more than happy to inbox you his WhatsApp No. as a means of verification. He’s a true treasure trove of knowledge, just like you are. A little unorthodox though, in that he prefers to use solids for follow up jobs on wounded lions.
 
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IvW,
I don’t like the .458 Winchester Magnum anymore than you do, but to be fair… Richard doesn’t attribute those failures to be due to the inherent shortcomings of the .458 Winchester Magnum. Here’s what he has to say on the matter:
——————————————————————————————————-
”As to the view that my tracker Tsuro had to finish off elephants that I had shot, thus pushing me to get the .505 Gibbs, let’s put the story right!!! The elephant cow herds in the area I was operating in, were renowned for their extremely aggressive attitude and I relate several accounts in my autobiography (The Hunting Imperative ) where I even found them tracking me!!! So, when tackling one of these herds, which I did frequently when tasked with eliminating all elephant and buffalo from large areas of Tsetse Fly country, shooting fast and furious , sometimes putting down 10, 15, even more, elephants in minutes with my Mannlicher Schonaeuer, inevitably I missed the brain on some and they would rise up, thus giving Tsuro a chance to back up with the .450 Rigby double that he carried. There was absolutely NO question of faulty .458 ammunition, simply a missed brain shot.



Furthermore, I only acquired the .505 after leaving the Game Department, for my safari hunting when backing up clients. What a truly magnificent cartridge that is! I used original Kynoch ammunition for some time as the rifle came with a good supply, but later handloaded with the monometal 550 gr Dzombo brass bullets and 135 grs of S385 powder ( the Somchem South African powder). This gave 2200 – 2230 fps. And heavy recoil!!!



Anyway, I continued using my .458 as a Professional Hunter most of the time as I have every confidence in it!”
——————————————————————————————————-

Richard later told me that he used three kinds of ammunition in his .505 Gibbs:
-Original Kynoch 525Gr round nosed steel jacketed FMJ solid factory loads (1978-1980)
- Barnes Old Pattern 600Gr round nosed copper jacketed FMJ solid hand loads (1980-2007)
- DZOMBO Mark VI 550Gr flat nosed brass monometal solid hand loads (very briefly in 2008 before he retired for only a few trials)

Another note for all interested parties. Richard exclusively used one kind of .458 Winchester Magnum ammunition for all his elephant culling. These were FRESH pre ‘69 Winchester Super Speed 500Gr round nosed steel jacketed FMJ solid factory loads (advertised velocity= 2130 FPS, chronographed velocity=2087 FPS).
View attachment 599342
Between 1970-1978, he was backing up clients with a .500/465 Nitro Express Holland & Holland Royal sidelock ejector and old stocks of Kynoch 480Gr round nosed steel jacketed FMJ solid factory loads.

Through the course of his hunting career, he used ten sporting firearms:
a) A .22 Hi-Power Savage Model 99
b) A .303 British Lee Enfield
c) A 7x57mm Mauser BRNO ZKK600
d) A .30-06 Springfield BSA Majestic
e) A .458 Winchester Magnum BSA Majestic that originally belonged to Paul Grobler (used for most of his private dangerous game hunts until 1972)
f) The game department issued .458 Winchester Magnum Mannlicher Schoenauer
g) A .458 Winchester Magnum Flaig’s built custom FN Mauser (gifted to him by client Zachary Miller in 1972 and toted by Richard as his favorite rifle)
h) A .500/465 Nitro Express Holland & Holland Royale sidelock ejector
i) A .505 George Gibbs Mauser (made in 1927 & acquired in 1978)
j) A 12 gauge 2.5” W.J Jeffery boxlock non ejector side by side


I’d be more than happy to inbox you his WhatsApp No. as a means of verification. He’s a true treasure trove of knowledge, just like you are. A little unorthodox though, in that he prefers to use solids for follow up jobs on wounded lions.
Excellent information!
 
Richards 458 often failed on eleohant.....Tsuro was always there with a 450 Rigby to back him up..
He used a 458 as it was all that was available from the department....
The 450 rigby was invented in 1994. Culling elephants was before that. So it appears we should change the history books and credit Tsuro with the invention of the 450 rigby.:ROFLMAO::A Shit:
 
The 450 rigby was invented in 1994. Culling elephants was before that. So it appears we should change the history books and credit Tsuro with the invention of the 450 rigby.:ROFLMAO::A Shit:
Interesting !!??
Krish
 
In my opinión the 458wm is insufficient for a Elephant , I shoot a Buff in 2021 , one no, six shouts, the first and the second shoots were good, very good, but insufficient, i don't mind the numbers, i think It hasn't stoped power.
 
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The 450 rigby was invented in 1994. Culling elephants was before that. So it appears we should change the history books and credit Tsuro with the invention of the 450 rigby.:ROFLMAO::A Shit:
Rigby double 450 NE not a bolt gun.....but if you new anything about RH you would have known that instead of trying to be a smart......
 
In my opinión the 458wm is insufficient for a Elephant , I shout a Buff in 2021 , one no, six shouts, the first and the second shouts were good, very good, but insufficient, i don't mind the numbers, i think It hasn't stoped power.
Wise man.....many better cartridges for the job.....
As always anybody can choose what they want but I wont use a 458WM......I have 375 H&H, 404 Jeff in process and 500 Jeff......
 
Wise man.....many better cartridges for the job.....
As always anybody can choose what they want but I wont use a 458WM......I have 375 H&H, 404 Jeff in process and 500 Jeff......
I sold It, and now I have one in 470NE
Similar yes but they aren't the same
 
Rigby double 450 NE not a bolt gun.....but if you new anything about RH you would have known that instead of trying to be smart
I am smart, I know that a 450 Rigby and a Rigby 450 NE double are different weapons. Perhaps if you knew anything, you would understand rhe difference. Good that you havent lost your sense of humour and your humility. Oops..... wrong guy.
 
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