Why no hunting in India, and could it ever be re-opened?

[towserthemouser]

Tigers are a jungle animal and I would say impossible to get an accurate count, I would bet there are far more, they have no natural enemies . About the same as when they try and tell us how many grizzlies we have. All bullshit IMO

I thought the same thing; oddly specific numbers..... they always make me suspicious.

I find it much more compelling when the biologists give you something more like: "We surveyed district 12 over a 24 month period and observed a population density of approximately 1.7 breeding age adults per square kilometer." Or something to that effect. A specific area, specific time frame, and a population density rather than an absolute number........ and then you compare that with historical norms as closely as you can, and you wind up with a more useful survey. Just my $.02

 

[towserthemouser]

At one time I read all the books by Jim Corbett that I could find. And, of course, his stories about fights with man-eating tigers and man-eating leopards have stayed with me forever. He is probably one of my favorite hunters of the past.

So when I found myself on holiday in India, I started asking about the hunting situation there. I knew that there was no hunting, but I still asked. I was a tourist, but I had the right to just ask questions. The managers at the hotel who sell tourist packages were very kind.

They answered that there are many problems with wild animals. They said that now there are also people like Jim Corbett who kill aggressive cats. But a foreigner cannot take part in such a thing, unless he is a journalist and writes a report.

Then I immediately called myself a journalist (this was partly true) and said that I would really like to see something like this, talk to at least one such hunter and actually write a report.

They promised to find out if it was possible. But, of course, they never found out anything. In their eyes, I was probably a crazy foreigner who, instead of drinking in a bar and swimming in the ocean, was looking for dangerous adventures. So my attempt was not crowned with success. But, as McMurphy said in the famous movie, at least I tried.

"But sir, I'm here on a fact-finding mission!"

 

[Muskox]

Jonathan Stonewall "Stoney". He was a Beat Officer during the days of the British Imperial Forest Service prior to 1947. Later during the East Pakistani era, he chose to remain behind in our part of the world because he married a Bengali lady. The East Pakistani Department of Forests made him the Station Officer of the Shomeshwari Forest Range in the Garo Hills of Mymensingh in the Northern tip of modern day Bangladesh. He used to supervise hunts for foreign VIPs there under authorization from the Department of Forests. Mostly red jungle fowl, green pigeon, Sambar, Muntjac, wild boar & one Asian sloth bear (in 1961). Always from elephant howdahs. He was one of my part time lecturers at the University of Peshawar, when I was studying Principles of Forestry in 1967. Good, friendly man. I have two photographs with him. He was instrumental in introducing modern elephant Khedda operations into our part of the world.

He passed away in 1969 from lung cancer. My son currently owns his Savage Model 99 in .300 Savage.

Wow, thank you for that information.

I do not know how long they lived in East Pakistan. Was a fairly long time, my mother spent most of her life from about 8 or 9 until she was 15 or 16 in India, East Pakistan and Pakistan. They were given fabulous home leave vacations and visited Hong Kong, Tokyo, the Pyramids, Paris, Frankfurt, and London. Something I always thought was spectacular and my own life has mirrored this with over 15 years of living abroad out of my 50 years.

I do not know the exact timelines. My uncle is still alive, when I go back to Wyoming next year, I will tell him about this. Would you have any of your Autobiographies left to sell?

 

[grand veneur]

True, it's very difficult to count animals in the jungle and dense rain forest. This applies to tigers as well as other big animals, such as the various elephant species, including the African forest elephant. It may be that the tiger population is underestimated, but the tiger population is highly dependent on the food supply and when you know that a fully grown tiger needs a Sambar deer for its food every 3 days, you can imagine what kind of wildlife population must exist besides the tiger. There is an increasing shortage of wildlife in South and Southeast Asia, largely due to the loss of habitat for many wildlife species. If you also take into account the considerable poaching, there are enough reasons for a drastic decline in the tiger population and therefore not an underestimation of the number of animals. The areas where tigers still exist are limited by dense human settlement compared to other areas of the world and are therefore easier to monitor. On the Malaysian peninsula hardly anything was heard about tigers. Thirty years ago, during several hunts in Pahang I myself only saw one tiger track once in the jungle.

 

[crossone]

Hi, @towserthemouser

I'm Bangladeshi, not Indian. And I generally try to avoid making comments publicly about India, because whenever fellow forum members in the past have spoken critically about India, trolls have always joined the forum in an attempt to discredit them and this has always resulted in some very ugly public exchanges on these forums. I try to stay away from all that, because I last visited India many years ago and I have no intention of ever returning there except out of compulsion. Especially now that we (in Bangladesh) kicked out the previous pro-Indian bootlicking government and have a lot of ongoing tensions with India.

I don't know if you're aware of this or not. But last year, an Indian wannabe film maker made a documentary on You Tube about me and my tiger hunting stories without my consent by using information and photographs taken from my autobiography. I had to exert a great deal of effort in order to get that documentary removed.

But anyway, I'll answer your question in as diplomatic a way as possible.

Hunting was banned in India by the Indira Gandhi regime via the passing of the so-called Wildlife Protection Act-1972. A portion of the Hindu population in India consider the consumption of any animal products to be taboo. So hunting and even meat eating are big offenses to them. When Indira Gandhi came to power, a lot of her supporters had these religious beliefs. Her cabinet was full of these people and they also had agendas to remove Western culture from India. As well as to disarm India's Royalty (Maharajas, Zamindars, Nawabs, etc) and strip them of their wealth. And to tighten up laws on the import & ownership of firearms.


Although she herself was very anti hunting, Indira Gandhi initially had no plans to ban hunting in India. This was actually the brainchild of a British jerk (one of those so-called “Conservationists”) named Guy Mountford. He was a founder member of the W.W.F and he wrote a book called “Vanishing Jungles” where he wrote a lot of anti hunting garbage about East Pakistan (now Bangladesh) in 1969. He also eventually convinced Indira Gandi to implement the hunting ban in India.

Emboldened by Guy Mount Ford and his strong position in the WWF, Indira Gandhi enacted the ban in 1972. Import of firearms got formally banned in 1980. Laws on firearms ownership were tightened and starting from 1972... an Indian citizen could not keep more than three firearms (this was further reduced down to two in 2023). Furthermore, the 1972 act prohibits any Indian from owning any firearms at all if they live near any forested areas. Not that this did anything in order to combat poaching... since poachers employ folidol, snares, pit fall traps & locally made muzzle loaders.

Over the years since 1972, India's youth started becoming indoctrinated against hunting, firearms ownership & meat eating. For this reason, any Indian film or work of art which depicts hunters or gun owners or meat eaters... mostly portrays us in a very negative light. And Indian media loves to rip our kind to shreds.

In 2015, the Indian government finally realized that exploding populations of game is indeed becoming too much of a problem in rural areas to ignore. So they began to authorize the culling of blue bulls and wild boars. But none of the meat from the culled animals is (legally) permitted to be consumed by anybody. All of it is buried under the ground, because the Indian government would rather allow hundreds of thousands of pounds of fresh free protein to rot than to permit their citizens (including malnourished starving ones with absolutely zero aversion to meat eating) to commit the “Reprehensible act of consuming wildlife”. These are screenshots sent to me by one of the cullers. The wild boars are being thrown into the pit for burial. The blue bulls will also be given the same treatment.
View attachment 685261View attachment 685262
If I had my way, all of the fresh venison (from the blue bulls) and pork (from the wild boars that come to feed at the crop fields) would be freely donated to impoverished local communities. Or at the very least, sold for a subsidized price at a government auction (if the government is feeling like earning a little revenue to pay the cullers for their efforts & ammunition expenditure). The only game animals which I would sanction for 100 % carcass disposal... would be the wild boars that feed on the garbage dumps at the city outskirts. Since those are extremely likely to contain trichinosis in the meat. And they should be kept away from human consumption.

In my humble opinion, hunting will never be relegalized in India again. Newer generations have completely been indoctrinated against it. And the political party currently running the show in India... as as staunch vegetarians as is humanly possible. India also tried very hard to get hunting & firearms ownership banned in our country as well, through our previous government. Fortunately, they didn't succeed and that government has been ousted.

Hunting will survive in Pakistan and even thrive for future generations to come. Because newer generations are being introduced to it. In Bangladesh... at the very least, bird & deer hunting will survive because newer generations (especially those living in rural areas) see this as perfectly normal. But not in India.

Interestingly enough, it's only the politicians (especially the party currently in power in India), urban dwellers & people living comfortably far away from rural areas (i.e the hotspots of human-wildlife conflict) in India that champion the concept of a plant based lifestyle. The thousands of impoverished & starving rural Indians who have their crop fields and livestock routinely ravaged by fauna (of both the herbivorous or carnivorous varieties) on a daily basis feel very differently about wildlife & meat eating. To them, all those crop raiding & livestock killing fauna (whose populations used to formerly get controlled pre 1972 by licensed hunters) are either:
A) A delicious source of protein
B) A menace to their livelihoods
C) A source of hides & antlers to sell on the black market

This is what the same people are doing in the United States. The anti-hunting groups have become so politically strong that they can now control the rural populations reserve food supply by planting wolves and grizzlies throughout the American west to reduce wild game populations and increase the costs of going after wild game. These same people, absolute environmental purist absolutionists, say nothing about the chemicals that are being sprayed out of jets, by our government, that has nearly killed every species of grouse, mule deer, and pronghorn in the West. They claim to care completely about an issue but, when you study them, they don't have any consistency to their arguments. They're either immoral, or anti-human. Their contributions have helped neither beast nor man. But they have harmed both.

 

[Hunter-Habib]

Wow, thank you for that information.

I do not know how long they lived in East Pakistan. Was a fairly long time, my mother spent most of her life from about 8 or 9 until she was 15 or 16 in India, East Pakistan and Pakistan. They were given fabulous home leave vacations and visited Hong Kong, Tokyo, the Pyramids, Paris, Frankfurt, and London. Something I always thought was spectacular and my own life has mirrored this with over 15 years of living abroad out of my 50 years.

I do not know the exact timelines. My uncle is still alive, when I go back to Wyoming next year, I will tell him about this. Would you have any of your Autobiographies left to sell?

I believe @PerH or @baxterb can accommodate you. Otherwise, I can easily get you in touch with the publisher myself if you inbox me.

 

[PerH]

I believe @PerH or @baxterb can accommodate you. Otherwise, I can easily get you in touch with the publisher myself if you inbox me.

I’ll send him the info to Muskox about the book.

 

[towserthemouser]

This is what the same people are doing in the United States. The anti-hunting groups have become so politically strong that they can now control the rural populations reserve food supply by planting wolves and grizzlies throughout the American west to reduce wild game populations and increase the costs of going after wild game. These same people, absolute environmental purist absolutionists, say nothing about the chemicals that are being sprayed out of jets, by our government, that has nearly killed every species of grouse, mule deer, and pronghorn in the West. They claim to care completely about an issue but, when you study them, they don't have any consistency to their arguments. They're either immoral, or anti-human. Their contributions have helped neither beast nor man. But they have harmed both.

I'm starting to think anti-human is closer to the mark, and perhaps even inhuman.......

 

[Northern Shooter]

That was a very informative post, much appreciated.

Next we need someone to chime in on the situation in China. Their prohibition on international hunters was much more recent. The mountain hunting mecca of the world.

 

[mark-hunter]

When you speak China, its like speaking another planet. Who knows what is on their mind!

 

[Muskox]

When you speak China, its like speaking another planet. Who knows what is on their mind!

If china ever opens, it will be open for a year or two and then slam shut like it always does.

 

[mark-hunter]

For commercial purposes, and GDP they certainly dont need to.

 

[grand veneur]

If china ever opens, it will be open for a year or two and then slam shut like it always does.

Yes, that's right. China briefly allowed hunting for foreigners years ago. It was possible to hunt in the provinces of Heilongjiang and Quinghai. I was in Heilongjiang for hunting and wanted to go to Quinghai the following year, but hunting was no longer possible.

 

[Fzj80]

@PerH I would like the info on purchasing that book as well please. Thanks

 

[leslie hetrick]

i started doing this at 9 years old and i,m still doing it at 81.

 

[Kharn]

I have never seen a country where hunting was no longer practiced reopen it. I have only seen the increasing lost of hunting areas.

Not exactly what you're talking about but I view it as similar.

Aberdeen, South Dakota, the town (people business etc) pooled money to buy 4000-5000 acres of land which was turned into Public Hunting Land and Hosts (to my belief/google researching) the best Pheasant Hunting in the world, of which I would love to go and have a crack at, the whole town it seems to revolve around Pheasant Hunting which I find both adorable & just awesome! This is one of the reasons I'd go live in America because of their Hunting Culture, albeit trapping for fur, hunting for meat, or targeting trophies, I love the American hunting culture! (& loathe my own countries lack of hunting 'culture' because we're a left nation, our dominant 'Right' party is the party that implemented gun control).

Correct me if I am wrong but I think India's most wealthy individual has an Anti-Hunting perspective (money=power=influence=change/stagnation), he is known for building/owning the largest private animal "habitat" in the (world/india can't remember) it's all high fence heavy duty cages like a zoo, there was a scene where he was explaining how he has 12 tigers in a 5 acre enclosure.

 

[Montymm]

orrect me if I am wrong but I think India's most wealthy individual has an Anti-Hunting perspective (money=power=influence=change/stagnation), he is known for building/owning the largest private animal "habitat" in the (world/india can't remember) it's all high fence heavy duty cages like a zoo, there was a scene where he was explaining how he has 12 tigers in a 5 acre enclosu

The Ambani's place is called Vantara. I am not a fan after spending some time reading about it, some animal movements are clearly not for the animals benefit.
They are from Gujarat, the state Mahatma Gandhi and our current PM are from. Alcohol is prohibited, most of the folks are vegetarians and pacifists (if you ignore some of the worst race riots in India in the recent past). I spent a traumatizing 4 years there during my engineering college days, I will be very surprised if any Gujarati supports hunting or related activities. Our hostel was completely vegetarian, some of us took to smoking dope to build an appetite for lunch and dinner. Honest. One day in desperation, some of us killed and cooked a pigeon in our hostel room. Trust me, we were very unpopular for a long time after that. Couple of good friends who came in to visit while the cooking was going on, never came to our rooms again in the next 3 years or so.

 

[mark-hunter]

It was through Monish's posts, wonder why he has stopped posting now.

Monish stopped being active, as he was allegedly or apparently posting stories from other sources.
Then he went awol.
i am sorry for this, because he gave quite a good input to this forum, and I would never know many of the famous hunters he was describing without his input.

Welcome to the forum!
If you wish to hunt, unfortunately, move to the country where this is possible, and which can provide a good paying job. To start hunt is never too late. And hunt is way of life. Not just a pass time.

 

[M70375!]

Not exactly what you're talking about but I view it as similar.

Aberdeen, South Dakota, the town (people business etc) pooled money to buy 4000-5000 acres of land which was turned into Public Hunting Land and Hosts (to my belief/google researching) the best Pheasant Hunting in the world, of which I would love to go and have a crack at, the whole town it seems to revolve around Pheasant Hunting which I find both adorable & just awesome! This is one of the reasons I'd go live in America because of their Hunting Culture, albeit trapping for fur, hunting for meat, or targeting trophies, I love the American hunting culture! (& loathe my own countries lack of hunting 'culture' because we're a left nation, our dominant 'Right' party is the party that implemented gun control).

Correct me if I am wrong but I think India's most wealthy individual has an Anti-Hunting perspective (money=power=influence=change/stagnation), he is known for building/owning the largest private animal "habitat" in the (world/india can't remember) it's all high fence heavy duty cages like a zoo, there was a scene where he was explaining how he has 12 tigers in a 5 acre enclosure.

South Dakota is highly commercialized when it comes to pheasant hunting. 4000 acres sounds like a lot of land , but it is not when you are hunting among hundreds of other hunters. Most of the plots have nice grass habitat with cattail sloughs. As soon as the shooting starts the birds all fly into the cattails and there goes your hunt, unless you like to force your way thru 8 foot high cattails plus water, if you did knock a bird down you would never find it. Of course the private land you need permission to hunt and many of the landowners are very hard to find or won't even come to the door when you knock. The situation is so bad for access that they legalized shooting birds from the road out of the road ditches, and about 3 pm when the birds come to the roads for grit, the hunters come out of the woodwork and there are 3 or 4 pickups on every road, it is a rat race and certainly not my idea of a fun pheasant hunt. However if you have a connection with a farmer, they do have a lot of birds in the area. I hunted there in 2023 and said that I would never go back to Aberdeen , South Dakota to hunt again if I lived to been 200 years old.

 

[Montymm]

Monish stopped being active, as he was allegedly or apparently posting stories from other sources.
Then he went awol.
i am sorry for this, because he gave quite a good input to this forum, and I would never know many of the famous hunters he was describing without his input.

Welcome to the forum!
If you wish to hunt, unfortunately, move to the country where this is possible, and which can provide a good paying job. To start hunt is never too late. And hunt is way of life. Not just a pass time.

Monish is a loss to the forum, I am sure. I found a lot of new to me stuff in his posts, to my everlasting pleasure.

Mark, you are right that hunting is a way of life. I was threading a worm on a hook when I was 3 years or earlier, so I understand the feeling. I fish every time I go to the beach here in India even when I know that the chance of getting a fish is practically nil. The local population with their large nets ensures that, but getting the bait wet and enjoying a few screenless hours matter a lot to me. Have spent many days cold and wet in the winter on a drift boat waiting for a bite on the Wilson river. I reckon the same for you hunters tracking or sitting in the hide for a day with no results to show for. I have spent 2 years in Germany, 3+ in UK and 5 in US; but honestly never felt at home in those countries. The pull of home and family was too strong. However, never say never. My younger daughter is an American citizen, still a minor living with us in India. So perhaps in my old age I will have reasons to visit US and this time may be try at least some guided bird trips.

My apologies, I am spending too much time talking about me on a hunting thread.. sorry folks.

Cheers
Monty