@C.W. Richterwait 'til you see the box-the rems belong in a museum but super cool! i've asked PHs for OLD wby ammo boxes yellow w/ elephants, etc. to put the empties on the mantel!
In my 270 I use to swear by Nosler 130 grain solid base, very accurate and just plain worked on pigs. Nosler stopped making these so I went to the 130 grain Core Lokt. Not quite as accurate but just worked. Shot my first 2 Tahr with this bullet. Well the 3rd as well but the bullet just zipped straight through, the exit wound showed no signs of opening up. He was heart shot and only ran a short distance, about 90mts. The same happened on the next couple of pigs I shot, so stopped loading them.
My point being that standard cup and core normally work well on animals that are not big with tough, thick hides. However the manufacturing of them appears not to guarantee consistency, premium bullets do.
I would suggest that when paying for an expensive hunt I would want every thing working in my favour that I can get. I still use cup and core in most of my rifles but for 358 and up if going after anything bigger than Red Deer I use, Woodleigh, some APC ( a mono metal) that I still have or the Aussie made Atomic 29 monos. Won't use Barnes as I have never had the shoot or work for me and heavens knows how many $ I sent Mr Barnes way trying to get them to shoot for me.
damn! should i take the O. N-J pic down?? that could cause mental anguish! LOL we wonder how that might have been caused! Good man!! All of us at AH wish you Both a speedy recovery.
As said in the movie “the outlaw Josie wales” there is “iron in your words for all to see! You won’t be chastised by me because you added the caveat about whitetail and smaller game. I will say that as an outfitter my entire life here in North America i would like to offer an observation. “More game has been lost in this country in recent years by people using “too much bullet” instead of too “frangible” a bullet. Too many people don’t actually research what their bullet will do they just believe the advertising or the claims their buddy makes about what brand should be used. Think about it this way…. What craftsman or artisan has a “one tool for all jobs attitude”? The answer would be NONE! And yet how many supposed great white hunters swear by ONE bullet for all their hunting no mater whether bull elk or bunnie rabbits! Well it just ain’t so! Use the right bullet for the job! And that does not just mean selecting the bullet based on the specie hunted but it also matters WHERE you intend in placing that bullet! When I was 19 years old, 41 years ago, I did a season of guiding elk near Chama New Mexico. I loaded up a bunch of 165 gr, so called premium bullets for a 7 mm magnum and headed out west. When my elk guiding job out in New Mexico ended I headed to alabama to guide the whitetail rut hunts from Christmas to the last day of January. I had seventeen black families that called me the “deer man” because of all the protein I placed on their doorstep each season. I generally shot around 40 whitetail each season in bama. Anyway I decided to use up those “premium” elk rounds I had left over from my trip out west. You guessed it! I was lung shooting 160 to 200 pound live weight whitetail bucks that were 11 inches thick thru the chest and they were running off! No blood trail and I could not find them! I was sick! So I took a two litter 7 up bottle and filled it with water. I suspended it from a tree limb and shot it with those “high dollar” premium bullets. The bottle did not even shudder! A small stream of water began leaking out of the bottle. As I approached closer to see the damage to the bottle I was shocked! A tiny hole in the entrance and an identical sized hole on the exit and in the exit a vertical crack in the bottle 8 inches tall with the exit hole in the center of it. The crack was like it was cut with a razor knife. The water was not even coming out of the crack!something I can't fathom is how people can spend thousands of dollars on a hunt, sometimes thousands on rifles, optics, and all other kinds of gear. and in the same breath, will put a box of Remington core lokts or another budget cup and core bullet in their rifle. And what makes that worse today is that there are affordable premium bullet options now, even in factory ammo, such as the Federal Fusion which is still affordable but uses a better bonded bullet. and I can't deny that standard cup and core bullets are proven for many kinds of game such as whitetail and smaller big games. however, I also can't deny that a premium bullet of any sort will still work better on any game species larger.
I know I'm kind of preaching to the choir with this one but I rest my case.
I was hunting in the Selous Game Reserve with PH Alan Vincent. He regards Bearclaws as one of the best choices for leopards as they’re ‘softer’ up front than A Frames and nearly always exit so you get massive shock and damage along with the exit hole. He also really likes Nosler Partitions for the same reasons.where did these "OG" bullets perform so well, and with what PH? (They're very picky.)
Agreed, but a lower-SD-for caliber bullet will tend to expend all its energy inside the cat and may not even exit, especially w/ a higher V gun like a Wby people can shoot accurately (which is just fine)! Std. rem SPs are fine for that job, as are original Nos BTs, Berger originals and std. The distances are short and the target is fragile. You simply must make the perfect shot w/ those traditional bullets (as you mention.) You want to blow it out of the tree (or over if on the ground) and that's IT. No trailing whatsoever. I'd much prefer a HOT deer/elk cartridge (up to .338 or .358) with high velocity and low SD bullets rather than a traditional DG bigger bore on cats! You can even get a high V out of a 375 HH w/ low SD bullets (3,000+/- fps! 235-260ish gr).I was hunting in the Selous Game Reserve with PH Alan Vincent. He regards Bearclaws as one of the best choices for leopards as they’re ‘softer’ up front than A Frames and nearly always exit so you get massive shock and damage along with the exit hole. He also really likes Nosler Partitions for the same reasons.
Well said.The way lead studies are done in birds can be definitively argued. I used PA deer season as an example, but our eagle population increases every year still. However, what I see as a bigger issue is hunters disregarding any possibility of lead poisoning in birds of prey as a result of hunting. You wrote if the citizens of a state agree lead is bad then it shouldn’t be used, the problem with that is citizens are primarily non-hunters. They won’t be so quick to disregard published effects of lead as many hunters that are set in their ways. I think we need to try and get ahead of it or state or federal governments will tell us what to do. We can’t get ahead of it by denying a problem could exist. Putting the data out there an images like the lead fragments x-rays educates people. The voluntary encouragement to use copper in certain problem areas has gone well from what I’ve read. I think it makes us look much better as hunters trying to address an issue rather than denying it.
I'm in the environmental cleanup business and didn't want to get bogged own after work on this, but yeah...Lead is inorganic. A metal. It does NOT readily degrade in the environment. Lead is def not BS. It's detected at 1% (10,000 parts per million) or more in front lawn and home garden soils in urban/suburban areas due to the earlier (70s and prior-40 yrs ago) use of tetraethyl lead in gasoline (exhaust-ev car/truck/bus that passed). It's not a good thing in areas where it's concentrated (gun ranges, military installations, former MI automotive industries-batteries, body soldering, wire harness soldering, lead based primers/paints, etc. etc.-"it's the pipes." LOL) Lead is no bueno. It causes failure of your CNS, smooths over your brains and causes one to fail. On the other hand, organic chemicals (the toxic ones-gasoline, diesel, brake cleaner, dry cleaning fluid, etc. cause cancer over the long haul, but they break down in nature-either quickly (petrochems) or with a little help by my friends (chlorinated chemicals PCE, TCE, etc.) And then there's the "forever chemicals" i(PFAS, PFOS, etc.) in firefighting foams, teflon, stabilizers for the aforementioned chemicals, clothes and laundry detergents, shampoos and the plastic dental flosses-and then finally radiation (from wars, nuke testing, reactor leaks-the latest being Fujiyama and NYC. The Jap one conveniently shares the same gyre as the AK salmon and crab. How "Inconvenient." The populations have been reduced as much as 85% and the commercial seasons have been closed. The last two groups are found in nearly every drop of water on Earth and cause issues at very low levels. The best advice I can give you is: Live in the country. Do NOT eat/drink anything that comes out of a plastic/foil/fake container. Have a carbon and particulate filter on your well water (UV in addition won't hurt!) Grow/hunt as much of your food as possible. Eat seafood/fish in moderation (unless from clean water on your property). Do NOT use pesticides/herbicides on your land. Do NOT listen to MSM in any of these regards. Research any meds prescribed to you (although that burden will be lessened by paying attention to the above.) Get natural sun and exercise regularly (even hard work on your land) in the clean air. Inorganics are bad (they don't go away,) organics and radiation are bad (but they eventually go away.) Forever chemicals are just that. Avoid that crap like Libdemtardia. 'Grew up on a big river (still live along it but hrs away,) shot plenty o' wildfowl first with lead and then steel due to the regs. 'Shooting the birds over ag fields is better than over the waterways. and, the new heavy shot alternatives are better than the steel. Gosh i hate the way that steel flew and lost steam. LOL Stainless is made out of toxic heavy metals as well, but more stable than lead. Hope that gives you a warm and cushy...everything mass-produced is toxic today, only the consumer is on a need-to-know basis. Avoid mass produced as it is the plague....Because 75-85 is ok, but 100 y/o is better! Imagine hunting 25 yrs longer. Oh, and there are ~10,000,000 hunters in the world spewing lead (and copper-it is also toxic. why copper sulfate is used to kill living organisms in waterways.) the mfrs don't care-they simply want to sell it and boost earnings! Don't let CA hear that Cu is toxic!!!! LOL They'll be shooting recycled plastic bb guns. I have worked on every type of cleanup imaginable in 3.5 decades, so if you are the lucky recipient of an old gas station, dry cleaners, factory (or are contemplating purchase of same, feel free to reach out!) I was supposed to be on early semi-retirement by 2021 but covid intervened, the reg. agencies gave clients breaks, and here I am still finishing the bulk of jobs up by 2025ish (after which I'll be taking on the low-hanging fruit, consulting people like you and focusing on hunting and clean living. (Possibly having a hand in clean premium projectiles that don't harm anyone in front of the intended target?)Well said.
Eating one animal with lead not a big deal.
Thousands of hunters putting lead into the environment. Bad.
Lead getting into water and food supplies has real effect on kids development. Happy to show anyone nunneries studies if you want.
Flukes. lol"Why do people not use premium bullets?"
Because bullet placement is more important than bullet construction. Not all game animals need a premium to kill them, and some rifles might shoot a standard cup and core hunting bullet more accurately than a premium bullet.
I now hunt almost exclusively with premium (Barnes TSX and TTSX) bullets in my .375 RUM and my .300 Weatherby.
But I haven't always and still don't always use premium bullets for certain game animals or in all of my hunting rifles.
Here are some (high dollar?) animals that I made one shot, DRT kills on with standard cup and core hunting bullets...
A 375" bull elk from a DIY public land hunt in Montana with a 180 gr Sierra Gameking bullet from my .30-06.
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My first Montana Bighorn from a DIY Solo hunt with a 117 gr Sierra GameKing bullet from my .257 Ackley
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Another Montana Bighorn from an Unlimited unit, also on a DIY solo hunt with my .257 Ackley and a 117 gr Sierra GameKing bullet.
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Another Montana Unlimited Unit Bighorn ram from an Unlimited unit, also on a DIY solo hunt with my .257 Ackley and a 117 gr Sierra GameKing bullet.
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And this Northwest Territories Dall ram from my first guided hunt, but also shot with my .257 Ackley and a 117 gr Sierra GameKing bullet.
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Many years ago I used the 190gr Hornady in a .300 Wby. I shot a black bear thru the lungs at ~135 yds. It dropped, popped back up and ran about 30 yds before dying. That fall I took a mule deer at about 300 yds. Dropped it like a stone. About two weeks after returning from the deer hunt, a friend asked me to go to a hunting preserve with him. I grabbed the .300 as I had ammo loaded for it. I shot an exotic ram at about 25yds. The exit hole had ribs sticking and the shoulder blade sticking out… almost cut it in half.'used to use the btsp interlocks in 30 ought 6 and 300 win mag and they performed phenomenally. They once had a 190 grain version. Have also used the 117 SST in 257 weatherby and they were phenomenal as well! I'll never forget a deer I took in Texas. It was something like 225 yards straight up a hill I mean it couldn't have been 10 yd horizontally from us... Shot the deer and it fell down the hill the landowner had to step aside and there it was where he was standing! Also tried the 160 grain RN interlocks in 6.5 and found that they did not hold together in short shots at high velocity. I would expect the same result with the 257 which has another 300 ft per second on most hot 6.5s, excepting the big weatherby which is the same velocity. I had almost forgotten about those Red box bullets until you mentioned! I know longer own any 35 cal guns but think I have a number of boxes of interlocks in 200 and 225 grains and possibly an old box of Remington core-lokt bullets as well.
those bullets were Phenomenal!!! i cried when i handloaded my last one (in 3006 for combo deer/bear). 'actually felt sorry for the deer i shot w/ it and once (as a teen) i was behind the crest of a hill lining up on a pretty nice buck...took careful aim and the deer dropped (but i also discovered a sort of ditch-witch trench in the crest soil-maybe 18" long, where the bullet first went through the hill (at barrel, not scope level) and the bullet still hit the mark and did its job perfectly at about 120 yds! idt a 150 grainer would've done same. not recommended, but it happened! lol Heavy/High SD for caliber just works wonders. And 2550 fps in this 18.5" bbl pump. Even better, much longer range pill in the 300 Wby!!!Many years ago I used the 190gr Hornady in a .300 Wby. I shot a black bear thru the lungs at ~135 yds. It dropped, popped back up and ran about 30 yds before dying. That fall I took a mule deer at about 300 yds. Dropped it like a stone. About two weeks after returning from the deer hunt, a friend asked me to go to a hunting preserve with him. I grabbed the .300 as I had ammo loaded for it. I shot an exotic ram at about 25yds. The exit hole had ribs sticking and the shoulder blade sticking out… almost cut it in half.
do they sell a product to get pesky bone residue off expanded, non-premium SP bullets? asking for a friend. (see above pics)Cats are in a league of their own when it comes to nervous systems and proper bullet selection (as your story bears out.) The somewhat thinner jacketed, less bonded core, non-monometal bullets work wonderfully on 'em. Expanding to somewhat frangible. I'd even use the gen 1 Nos BTs or Bergers (non-hunting model) on cats as they'd do the trick well. It's the size of a big deer with a "lights out" upon proper shot nervous system design. Tried-and-true old bullet designs shine on cats! Robertson talks quite a bit about it in his 1st book. Aren't Nos PTs featured in Federal Premium ammo.? Hmmmm. LOL My favorite bullets for terminal performance inside 400-450 yds, excepting the large DG. I think this picture is worth 2,000 words... On the left is the aforementioned factory 270do Remington C-L in 375 recovered from my son's Buffalo and a 140 Nos PT in 6.5 recovered from my son's Aoudad at 430 ballistic yards (just shy of 500 yards up a cliff). I shot a dandy broadside the bullet exited asked my son if he wanted second best and 15 seconds later he made a perfect frontal shot with my gun. The bullet was collected inside the belly skin after passing through all organs, as it was angling down and looking towards us! I'd say both are premium performance. The difference is I'm not trying to sell you anything, just spouting wisdom from experience.