TSX all the way or solids in the mag for buffalo

[Fordy]

Gday andrew62 & grand veneur

I guess I’m a little different as when testing various prototypes or bullets for a few companies or requests from people over the years I’ve not had those issues
but today I don’t take as many in the field as I used to , to stop that from being a potential possibility as my ability to say multitask is somewhat disappearing these days so yes it can occur no doubting that & get why some ph don’t even want solids in a clients belt or even camp but there are solids & there are solids & that I’ll be careful with to not cross a line here on .

just trying to say one shouldn’t put a blanket across all solids just the same as other pill styles

I’ve also seen some bad stuff occur & a lot it can be attributed to muscle memory & why I like all my actions to be the same & wont get me using a double as that will end in a bad outcome when I try & work the bolt after the first shot lol

In total agreement that familiarity is a very good thing

Cheers

 

[Brian]

Not all solids are the same. Most solids are have inferior/out dated design. I recomend that you do your research. I suggest that you study the CEB, #13 Solid or the North Fork Cup Point Solid.

Look for a nose profile that creates cavitation around the sides of the bullet. That's what gives you a bigger wound channel and deeper/straighter penetration with a solid.

If you're shooting a calibre that is less than .500 I agree that your TSX is an excellent bullet for the first shot. ( For me, I like the .410 CEB Raptor .500 cal bullet or a CEB # 13 solid for my first bullet. on buffalo)

 

[Andrew62]

Not all solids are the same. Most solids are have inferior/out dated design. I recomend that you do your research. I suggest that you study the CEB, #13 Solid or the North Fork Cup Point Solid.

Look for a nose profile that creates cavitation around the sides of the bullet. That's what gives you a bigger wound channel and deeper/straighter penetration with a solid.

If you're shooting a calibre that is less than .500 I agree that your TSX is an excellent bullet for the first shot. ( For me, I like the .410 CEB Raptor .500 cal bullet or a CEB # 13 solid for my first bullet. on buffalo)

I was going to reply to @Fordy, before your reply, to ask his opinion on the Northfork cupped solid. I actually have a box or 2 of loaded Northfork cupped solids from Hendershots. I was contemplating using them at some point but I wasn’t sure if they are ideal for elephant. Could either of you give me your opinion on cupped solids for elephant.

Thank you for your input!

 

[Brian]

Good question. I don't have any experience with elephants. From what I gather the North Fork guys would know all about the bullet. The real authority on CPS North Fork and the CEB bullet is Michael458 who is a member here. He is the designer of these bullets and has tons of experience.

My guess is that the 416 CPS North Fork from a 416 Rem would be super for elephants. It is designed to be a semi expanding, straight penetration bullet.

I have used it in the 375HH and it was fine for .375 cal. However I am not a fan of 375 cal. for cape buffalo. I understand that 416 RM is good elephant medicine with a decent bullet

 

[Fordy]

Gday @Andrew62
My history of the cup point is very limited to buff & other smaller critters & non existent on elephant

So please take others that may have used them as better advice than mine as actual is better than theory but theory is one that starts the evolution process imo & would love to see someone who has & one that I really hope that if they did a autopsy was done to see what occurred ( I love measuring & hopefully next year I’ll measure one or 2 different solids but highly doubtful it will be a north fork cup point solid unless enough data/evidence is gained first so we will see )

So here goes on my theory

Cup point solids show one weakness that while it will no doubt kill a elephant if all goes well it’s one that can go pear shape & then it’s all bets are off imo

This weakness is the ability of the cup point to create & hold that “flat” meplat under all resistances once it is formed from the cup itself ( or if the velocity impact is too low it won’t form either)
This is where I “theorise “ that this will be one of the undoing of reliability in a elephant ( brain shot ) as body most likely work well as other pills also will but i don’t like the idea when all goes right as eventually it will be seen a less than ideal will NEED to be taken so i don’t want to either be the cause or rely on my ph , so the idea of a non true good solid is one I’m @ real odds on with elephant & man has that got me in trouble with some companies but I’ll stand my ground on a dead bovine dosent correlate to a dead elephant very well especially when one only got 14 to 20in total penetration in a number of bovines with a variety of their pills ( another day on that )

The meplat if it’s also compromised on a angle depending on level it will also veer off line eventually we just don’t know when as I’ve seen some pills veer off line extremely quickly ( not so much the north fork compared to those ) & the north fork cup point is more prone to that angled meplat than the likes of other better /stronger designs ( still good but not as good as the best )
Also velocity impact has a effect here also so that needs to be considered also

So to me the cup point is probably let’s say a 90% of the time will work pill & it’ll most likely work but give me the likes of a 98% 99% solid ( yes I still believe what we have today can be improved on ) as that to me is where the real solids come to the front of the line on choice so I’d not use a cup point solid on elephant

Basically if people are catching solids in a elephant’s head ( don’t know if anyone has but penertration in bovines show it’s not as deep as the better solids & maybe somewhat limited for elephant , I just don’t know ) or it’s non straight line your basically just getting in line till your numbers called out in my theory based analysis above for elephant

I hope to gain knowledge in this area & look forward to other’s response

Cheers

 

[Andrew62]

Gday @Andrew62
My history of the cup point is very limited to buff & other smaller critters & non existent on elephant

So please take others that may have used them as better advice than mine as actual is better than theory but theory is one that starts the evolution process imo & would love to see someone who has & one that I really hope that if they did a autopsy was done to see what occurred ( I love measuring & hopefully next year I’ll measure one or 2 different solids but highly doubtful it will be a north fork cup point solid unless enough data/evidence is gained first so we will see )

So here goes on my theory

Cup point solids show one weakness that while it will no doubt kill a elephant if all goes well it’s one that can go pear shape & then it’s all bets are off imo

This weakness is the ability of the cup point to create & hold that “flat” meplat under all resistances once it is formed from the cup itself ( or if the velocity impact is too low it won’t form either)
This is where I “theorise “ that this will be one of the undoing of reliability in a elephant ( brain shot ) as body most likely work well as other pills also will but i don’t like the idea when all goes right as eventually it will be seen a less than ideal will NEED to be taken so i don’t want to either be the cause or rely on my ph , so the idea of a non true good solid is one I’m @ real odds on with elephant & man has that got me in trouble with some companies but I’ll stand my ground on a dead bovine dosent correlate to a dead elephant very well especially when one only got 14 to 20in total penetration in a number of bovines with a variety of their pills ( another day on that )

The meplat if it’s also compromised on a angle depending on level it will also veer off line eventually we just don’t know when as I’ve seen some pills veer off line extremely quickly ( not so much the north fork compared to those ) & the north fork cup point is more prone to that angled meplat than the likes of other better /stronger designs ( still good but not as good as the best )
Also velocity impact has a effect here also so that needs to be considered also

So to me the cup point is probably let’s say a 90% of the time will work pill & it’ll most likely work but give me the likes of a 98% 99% solid ( yes I still believe what we have today can be improved on ) as that to me is where the real solids come to the front of the line on choice so I’d not use a cup point solid on elephant

Basically if people are catching solids in a elephant’s head ( don’t know if anyone has but penertration in bovines show it’s not as deep as the better solids & maybe somewhat limited for elephant , I just don’t know ) or it’s non straight line your basically just getting in line till your numbers called out in my theory based analysis above for elephant

I hope to gain knowledge in this area & look forward to other’s response

Cheers

I have a buffalo/tuskless hunt this September and I have been planning on taking Barnes banded solids as I took my last elephant with them. I did a frontal brain shot and he collapsed where he stood.

Hopefully, others that see this will have had experience with cupped solids and can share with us.

 

[Brian]

These would be my first choice in .416 RM. Both can be loaded to the same point of impact. I have no idea if the Raptor is good for elephants but the CEB # 13 Solid is the "best on the west" solid in my opinion.
Cutting Edge Bullets. Brian

 

[Doug3006]

What’s the value or advantage of the 6 blades separating after 2” of penetration? Just curious.

 

[Brian]

Please enjoy researching it on B&M Rifles and Cartridges.

The blades go spiralling in a star pattern, slicing and dicing, through the vital organs in a spectacular way resulting in a quicker kill, the base of the bullet continues penetrating for a deep straight wound channel. I have done and it seen it several times on cape buffalo with a 50-110 Win. .410 grain Raptor bullet. It is very impressive.
You can go to B&M Rifles and Cartridges to learn more about it.

 

[grand veneur]

When it comes to FMJ bullets or monolithic solids, the extent to which the shape of these bullets, whether with round or flat nose or Hydrostatically stabilised, plays a great role in a better effectiveness, remains open for discussion. Theoretically, it is important that all this bullets do not deform and impact with sufficient velocity to result in good cavitation. In practice, FMJ bullets that are significantly deformed or with a broken jacket can also kill, as shown in the example below. In general the majority of classic FMJ bullets I have used with various cartridges for shooting buffalo and elephants and recovered, have retained their structure.

Hornady .458 500gr FMJ recovered from the neck of an elephant after a frontal brain shot with the cartridge 460 Weatherby Magnum.

 

[grand veneur]

19g FMJ / 9,3x74R factory load DWM recovered from the chest of a buffalo.

 

[harris88]

TSX all the way. A 400 gr. 416 TSX is going to penetrate more than enough, and I would much rather shoot an escaping buffalo in the hip bone with a large caliber expanding monolith than a solid.

(I had a complete pass through on a broadside shot on my buffalo (the one in my profile pic) with a .375 caliber 250 gr. Tipped TSX. Granted, it struck behind the shoulder.)

 

[crossone]

My experience is the same as Doug's and I primarily shoot 400 TSX in a 416 Rigby. I don't push it to get max velocity but I still routinely get exits. In Moz, there will likely be larger groups and the shots can be a bit further out around 100 yards or even a bit further. I load TSX only unless I'm on ele of course.

Southern Moz? Niassa area is quite thick in places.

 

[Fordy]

Gday Doug 3006

What’s the value or advantage of the 6 blades separating after 2” of penetration? Just curious.

Adding to Brian post #49
The other part that’s been a interesting journey is the one of when things don’t go right as we plan this can also be pill ( bullet ) consistency from shot to shot over various impact velocities/ resistances but leave those alone for a bit
( now I’ll need to get my backside in gear & start showing pictures so bare with me please they will come or probably better for a new thread ? )
Yes placement is a key component of terminal killing efficiency & matching that to the pill’s ability & overall a lot of pills will kill fairly good on well placed shots as long as penertration is adequate

over penertration is better than under penertration

Let’s now move to the less than ideal placed shots either due to critter behaviour, environmental factors, & usually the worst of them all human behaviour ,
well this muppet won’t sugarcoat it I’ve done some extremely bad shots over the years but learn I have & one I’m always looking to better myself but also I’m greatfull for those shots as the results shouldn’t have occurred yes the shedding monos give a wider window or more wriggle room but still no reason to use them on a iffy shot & just blaze away as the placement is key but it’s good to have the ability of a little more leeway


This is where the likes of the shedding monos as I call them have risen to the top & still kill well on the well placed shots

The first official shedding mono I used well wasn’t classified that but it turned out to be was a original Barnes X ( today you can still get it but erratic results you’ll get & specialist shedding designs are more reliable)
Officially First type I’d used / seen was a pill by the name of GPA , don’t know if they are around anymore but on the scene around 10 years before the raptors & since been multiple companies come & go & some still around & others will turn up no doubt

But the greatest thing that these on the whole produce is a quicker impact to tip of the critter & gives us a wider range of margins ( some shedding are absolute crap so just don’t look @ the title a company gives them so buyer beware)

Breaking these different pill brands down you get a few distinct lines
The ones like brass raptors the petals go wider than the ones like the gpa or a multitude of other copper shedding monos
Now ea has its place on optimising the trauma it inflicts on the critter

The other one that exists is a caliber range & use to be upto including 375 & 375 above
That was down to basically 2 companies till hammer went off the rails & was more interesting in selling than terminal
Today
Raptors still hold the above 375 mantel ( still room for improvement in my eyes & working on those as I type )
375 cal is a interesting one as basically no one has a pill that has shown the quality of a hammer prototype that was tested thoroughly but hammer went the route of a higher bc pill & different tip material / design so marketing got the nod above terminals which is a shame but is what it is
The 338 & below is a mixture of companies but the one who’s showing some very good results is apex & the growth forward in his stage 3 is truly impressive so I hope mark continues that way as the 338 & down will be his mantel to hold if he keeps going like he has so far on his journey
So I await those & hopefully he does a 375 as that would be nice also ( I’m pestering him lol )


The one that the likes of nearly all the shedding like is speed
But I’ve been testing a couple companies for a while now to see how they stack up & one brand has really bucked the trend of all before on the 30 cal & 6.5 I’ve tested ( speed still works better)

Conclusion
Above 375 there @ this stage nothing that beats the raptor I’ve tested 375 the verdict is kinda out but the pill I took to Mozambique recently showed it’s got the runs on the board to take that title but way more testing needed to actually gain that
338 somewhat the same as I can throw a blanket over multiple
30 cal & down apex is pretty darn hard to beat

I’ll come back with pics & some charts I’ve gathered over the years to shed a little light on why I’ve come to the conclusions I have & if that suits anyone that’s cool if not that’s cool also but I’d love to have a conversation on where & how the pills they like better over others they used & especially ones I’ve not used as still so much to learn & I look forward to that ( a new thread maybe the best direction as solids are a whole new subject imo but again I’ll back the need for them but also get where a issue exists so choosing the hatch for the catch is important imo )

Ultimately I’m always trying to find the better mousetrap & I like the good kills but I like the good kills on marginal shots better
Yes covering bases

Cheers

 

[steve white]

What’s the value or advantage of the 6 blades separating after 2” of penetration? Just curious.

You have to see the picture of organ damage shown by Micheal458 to comprehend that these are petals on steroids. A picture is worth a thousand words, and the pictures changed my mind about those slicing blades.

 

[Green Chile]

Southern Moz? Niassa area is quite thick in places.

True...the swamps see the herds bunch up in large groups in fairly open ground. Hard to get close and some of the first shots are at 100+.