Thoughts on Borrowing Guns on Safari

[CoElkHunter]

Not quite. We saw leopard and hippos outside the tents at night. The water in front is the Zambezi.

Old Drift Lodge – Wild Horizons

www.olddriftlodge.com

Awesome!

 

[NIGHTHAWK]

I'd no more drive 300-400 miles to get a 4457 form signed than fly a paraglider to Tibet! Guess I'd be borrowing the PH's bespoke John Rigby .375? LOL

Hey, if it was easy, everyone would be doing it…

 

[Ryan]

I have taken my own rifles on three hunts(two in Namibia and one in South Africa) and used a rental on a fourth in South Africa. No regrets either way. I just weigh the options. I took my bow on all of the hunts too. I rented on the one hunt because I was planning on travelling for a week and a half after hunting with all my belonging in the vehicle since I was ending in a different place than where I started. In this case storing a firearm wasn't an option. Theft is always a concern and while I'd miss my bow it's easily replaceble. But a stolen firearm in a foreign country is not going to be a simple matter. Plus I was going into a few national parks, which don't allow firearms in them. This also freed up space in my luggage for more than one bottle of South African liquor I wanted to bring home. I asked my outfitter what he offered for rental so I was familiar with them. A Mauser and a Ruger M77 with Leupold optics were quite acceptable. Though I'd have had no issues with a Savage, I happen to own one and it works great. My eland, duiker and bushbuck never knew I was using a rental. Next trip, who knows.

 

[CoElkHunter]

Hey, if it was easy, everyone would be doing it…

Yep. All the cool kids.

 

[Philip Glass]

The "issues" seem to be:
-- Having to go to CBP for 4457.
Do the same people complain about this also complain about going to the range and practicing? In the scope of things to prep for a Safari this is miniscule. Also, with the elimination of dates on the form it is once in a lifetime event.
-- Taking the time to check-in the firearms.
This is a non-issue. One has to get to the airport about 3 hours prior for international flights. The extra half hour or so for TSA is part of that time. It does NOT add any extra time to overall airport time.
-- Permitting process for the firearms at destination country.
By using a travel agent like @TRAVEL EXPRESS or others, this is a non-issue. All one has to do it copy serial numbers etc. from one form to another.
-- Gun check at the customs of destination country.
Again, this is a non-issue if one does their homework. Most of the time your outfitter will take care of it and you will be through the customs with your guns and ammo before the other passengers. On my recent trip to Zimbabwe, I was at least 2 hours ahead of other passengers in exiting the airport due to a fixer meeting me at the gate and speeding me through all the lines and customs. $20 well spent.
-- Departing with guns
Same as entering the country and checking in for a flight. No extra time.
-- Entering the USA
You get your own personal CBP agent that escorts you to luggage carousel and then customs area where after a quick check of serial numbers you are gone, usually faster than regular passengers if there is a line. Now, I realize this experience can be different depending on the entry port.

Yes, there is some effort and planning required when traveling with guns. However, compared to traveling without guns it is not a significant effort. Heck, I did 10 days of glamping in Zimbabwe last July. That travel had more moving parts than most Safaris. I just hired a local fixer to handle everything from arranging shopping trips, reservations, airport transfers, local transportation, etc., etc..

Very well said!

 

[WAB]

I'm glad that you are in that position where you can have others take over for you, but the majority out there can't. If they take time off of work it is non paid, and while there are a number of members here that wouldn't care there are also a lot of members that would have problems doing it. I remember a member here mention that he has to drive 300 to 400 miles one way to get to a US Customs office for a round trip of 600 to 800 miles just to get a form filled out

I’m not sure what you’re trying to say. I have done what @Tanks has pictured. It is less expensive than a good PG Safari. I don’t hear any complaints about pics of safari lodges.

 

[Philip Glass]

All these issues seem small to me compared to arriving to find out I have a Savage rifle to use with a Chinese scope and mystery ammo for a 10 day hunt. My biggest issue traveling with a firearm was actually on a hunt to Alaska. In 2015, Alaskan airlines (of all airlines) wouldn’t accept a firearm from American and had me very stressed out rechecking my firearm on a short layover in Chicago. When Covid first started, I thought I had a serious issue getting my firearm home on the plane with me from South Africa, but it all worked out fine. Stressed for no reason thankfully.

That issues should be resolved with AA and Alaksa being partners now.
Hilarious on the camp gun you were presented!

 

[Philip Glass]

My replies are in red in the above quote.

I'll still take my own firearms to go hunting. It is well worth the little extra time and problems that creep up.

It was worth it for all of us. Even though it was slow departing JNB this year.

 

[Philip Glass]

I'd no more drive 300-400 miles to get a 4457 form signed than fly a paraglider to Tibet! Guess I'd be borrowing the PH's bespoke John Rigby .375? LOL

It can be done remotely but you have to know the right people.

 

[Tokoloshe Safaris]

As a safari operator we offer quality loaner rifles. Including Rigby, Jefferies, Winchester and Ruger.
Personally I would rather see a visiting hunter bring his own rifle as long as the rifle is up to the job.

Lon

 

[Philip Glass]

I agree, I would hate to see a new visitor to Africa leave his/her guns at home out of fear of the process. Use a good travel agent and an expediter, allow a little extra time, and you are highly unlikely to have any issues.

For sure. It just kills me for people to miss out on the experience. especially from bad advice. I take many hunters with me these days and I get to field all these questions leading up to a safari. They all just need to take a breath and listen to me!
Philip

 

[fourfive8]

I’ve done it both ways. Not taking a firearm is simpler and easier. One trip was primarily a cull/meat hunt along with some bird hunting. I was only charged for the ammo used and the PH was a friend. Both rifles, a 375 HH Win 70 and a 7mm Mag Sako both with topped with excellent scopes and the ammo was excellent factory with TBBC bullets. I knew the firearms in advance and I don’t think I was giving anything up by using that equipment. Also shotgun ammo would be problematic no matter yours or not plus I prefer less hassle of taking single firearm when I take mine. Have used PH’s shotgun and ammo twice.

But conversely, I have enjoyed using my own rifle and my own reloads on most trips. I do understand the pride of using one’s own equipment. Plus using your own own prevents blaming anyone or anything else for foul ups.

 

[Mark A Ouellette]

As a teenager in Potter County, at the time the deer capitol of Pennsylvania, our high school rifle team would volunteer to help visiting hunters sight in their rifles. There, I often encountered hunters with "boresighted" but never shot rifles. Others might fire two shots in the black with their trusty deer rifles and stop to not waste any ammo practicing. Okay, the latter were probably one-shot whitetail killers. Thinking about it they were mostly WWII veterans whom I now I wished that I had known better.

Most of those mentioned above would today probably rather rent a rifle in Africa. Guns are only tools to them. Then there are us gun affectionados to whom a good firearm is something special. We glass bed, maybe install pillars, have the trigger pull adjusted for a crisp break, handload to develop accurate ammunition, and practice, practice, practice until we have high confidence in our ability with that gun. Me, and folks like me would rather take our own, special rifles to Africa and back.

 

[Nevada Mike]

I shoot left handed. I own a number of LH rifles from 22-250 to 404 Jeffery. I have seen a loaner left handed rifle ONCE in a hunting camp. I prefer my own rifles - muscle memory is important to develop and it happens only with practice. I'll haul my own rifles with me and borrow only if I hve no other option.

 

[Wheels]

I am more of a hunter than I am a gun connoisseur. Firearms are nice but for the most part, they are tools.

I have been on many more trips to Africa that had nothing to do with hunting than hunting specific trips. Some of those trips included multiple countries. Some of those trips I have added hunts to. Taking firearms on those trips are not practical or even possible in most cases. On those occasions I have not had a significant problem with the PH's or camp firearms.

For me, it is much more preferable to hunt with a borrowed rifle than to miss out on the opportunity to hunt.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

I am a pretty serious American hunter. Therefore, I own guns. A fair amount of them. I own small bores, big bores, and a whole bunch of the mid-bores, which are all basically the same, but give rise to endless discussion about which one is best. Hint – they are all the same.

I own expensive guns, and inexpensive guns. I own compact rifles, bespoke shotguns, ultra-light mountain rifles, heavy sniper rifles and handguns of every sort. My cheapest rifles mounted with good optics shoot every bit as well as the most expensive rifles in the gun safe. Hint – invest in very good scopes. The only gun I own that truly outperforms all others might have been specifically made for the Israeli Defense Forces sniper unit: it actually holds its ¼ MOA out to 1,000 yards. Don’t mess with the IDF.

My personal range goes to 1,000 yards and I have access to a range with incremental targets to 1 mile, and a “long target” at 3,500 meters. I know, its awesome. I shoot a lot. So, I have guns, and shoot them often. The problem has become, you can’t actually take them anywhere. Not easily anyway. Traveling with guns is now far more trouble than it’s worth. I am still waiting to hear from the Spanish consulate in San Francisco about a firearms permit for a hunt in April. Last April.

So, I have started to borrow, or “hire,” guns. I have borrowed guns from PHs to hunt all sorts of plains game, dangerous game (I wrote about a recent elephant AH in June), and across Europe. I completed half the capra World Slam this year taking 6 mountain species using 5 different rifles in 5 different countries. I fired a total of 6 shots for 6 animals. The guns performed flawlessly.

It turns out that when you can only own a few fit-for-purpose guns, they usually work very well. My various OPHs have been telling that few years.

I have enjoyed the opportunity to see, use and learn about a lot of new guns and calibers. I have been especially impressed with the cohort of rifles built in Yugoslavia that are still in service across the various Balkan countries. The 7x64MM cartridge is wonderful to shoot, with little recoil and works very well on the chamois, roe deer and red stags. A nice Swarovski scope and that 7x64 will drive tacks across mountain canyons. A Blazer R8 in 300 win mag in Spain for Ibex, a 25-06 in South Africa to take virtually every species including the largest Cape Eland anyone I know has ever seen, a Kimber 308 in Zimbabwe that was matched to the 375 H&H, and on. It’s been wonderful.

Traveling without the hassle of taking guns has reduced the travel stress, made me more flexible (it certainly makes multi-country hunts waaaaaaayyyyyyy easier), and introduced a newfound topic of conversation around the campfire or pub table, depending on the local customs of where you are hunting. I have become a convert. I might consider taking specialty gun on a specialty hunt if I’m not sure of the rifles the outfitters will have, but that will become a rare event.

I still love my various guns, and I still shoot often. I enjoy shooting. The range time with a variety of guns and calibers has improved my field readiness. I mix and match bullets so I can get used to the fact that most guns perform well within field accuracy conditions with most ammunition. I have never seen an African PH turn down a handful of extra 470ne rounds because they weren’t his/her preferred manufacturer. I’ve mostly seen them drop the bullets into the tube and head out hunting.

My advice on traveling with guns is, for the most part, don’t. Practice a lot. Shoot often. Shoot everything. Get comfortable with as many firearms platforms as you can. Shoot every cartridge that you can. Use every bullet that you can find. And when the time comes, use whatever gun is in your hands, with whatever bullet is in that gun. Take a few breaths, don’t rush, and make the shot. When the bullet goes where it is supposed to, virtually any gun will work. And if you cannot consistently put the bullet right where you want, use a 375H&H, those things make big holes.

@Cleathorn
A big eland with a 25-06 WOW.
I want to know more.
Bob.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Traveling without guns would certainly make it a bit easier, but I will suffer the logistics, because really like using my own guns.


I also enjoy working up loads, experimenting with different ammo, and knowing the "dope" when I have to stretch a shot.

@Safari Dave
While I would not have any issues using a borrowed rifle to me it would not be the same.
I had my Whelen built expressly for my hunt in Namibia. I worked up the loads I wanted and along the way learnt a lot about loading and getting the best out of the Whelen.
To me it was the only logical rifle to take after all the work. Plus I had no hassle taking it to Namibia and home again.
If I was hunting a different country and depending on the degree of difficulty of getting a rifle to my destination would influence my decision.
Bob

 

[Doug3006]

I’m too much of a gun nut to borrow or rent. I’ve found the requirements to export my guns to be simple. There’s a CPB office about 5 miles from my office, so getting a form 4457 is no challenge. The airline and destination firearms paperwork has always been handled capably by Gracey or TWG. I’ve never been hassled in any airport in getting my rifles checked and permits issued. I may have just jinxed myself, but I’m not worried. In the US the enemy is simple incompetence on the part of ticket counter types or TSA. I print the policies out and have them handy in case I have to conduct a free job-knowledge refresher for them! In Africa, I’ve learned that corruption is the enemy. I’ve paid the required administrative lubricant and found it works wonders!

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Co, please educate me - what is the difference between TSX and TTSX?

@Kevin Peacocke
Put simply Kevin the TTSX has a plastic title that helps it open quicker and has a better bc.
Th TSX is a plain Jane hollow point.
Bob

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

All these issues seem small to me compared to arriving to find out I have a Savage rifle to use with a Chinese scope and mystery ammo for a 10 day hunt. My biggest issue traveling with a firearm was actually on a hunt to Alaska. In 2015, Alaskan airlines (of all airlines) wouldn’t accept a firearm from American and had me very stressed out rechecking my firearm on a short layover in Chicago. When Covid first started, I thought I had a serious issue getting my firearm home on the plane with me from South Africa, but it all worked out fine. Stressed for no reason thankfully.

@375Fox
I would have no issues with using a Savage rifle, plus a lot of scopes are made in China.
Savage are usually accurate straight out of the box.
The rifle I took to Namibia was a rebarelled Savage.