Scoped Double, Why?

RedLeg is correct in all except the English being against mounting a scope on a double rifle. The English have been mounting scopes on double rifles as long as the glass has been available. I find the majority of folks who oppose a scope on a double are Americans, and in most cases they are not owners of double rifles and are of the mind set that a double rifle is only effective at very close range. None of that is true and most old time users of double rifle can effectively take game at some amazing distances. Most of those folks wouldn't think of having a bolt rifle that only had iron sights, but would certainly have a bolt rifle with a scope only.
I can't see why a person would be opposed to having both sights on a double rifle and not on a bolt or single shot rifle to get the best that firearm had to offer!
.........................................Puzzling :E Head Scratch:

You and I will absolutely agree that glass on a double will work and help wring maximum versatility from a double rifle.

However, I would conservatively estimate since WWI, that for every English double equipped with a telescopic sight there are 50 German and Austrian doubles so configured. Throw in combination guns, another English aversion (and yes, I know they built some), and the ratio would be closer to at least 100 to one. Deutschland Uber Alles!:)
 
I'm not an owner (Yet) of a double rifle, but I see lots of pictures of doubles with scopes and I'm wondering why?

My idea of a double is a fairly close range gun that can be quick and very deadly in an instant when needed. Putting a scope in the way of the of or replacing the open sights seems wrong. I understand no one should be making snap shots at anything, but that's where the double excels.

If one has the time to shoulder and take careful aim through an optic other than maybe a red dot, shouldn't they be using a bolt action off sticks?

I'm sure there are good reasons why and look forward to hearing them.

Jim
Not all Double Rifles are for DG or chambered in DG rounds. I have several, none chambered in DG calibers, 7x65R and 5x57R. Both have Leupold 3x9x50 scopes and I have used both to hunt deer and boar in Europe. Functions like a regular hunting rifle but the 2nd shot is useful, esp. on drive huts,
 
Perhaps there is an aversion to the costs involved in a proper scope mount for a double rifle that creates sour grapes? Holland Style Claw Mounts and German Style Claw Mounts are $2500-$3500 for parts and labor. (optic not included)

Perhaps its misunderstood benefits? Those would be the two very traditional and truly reliable "return to zero" scope mounts for double rifles. Ultimate versatility in that you can shoot with a scope when you must and yet take the optic off the second you are looking for a wounded animal in thick jess.

Perhaps its a collector versus "modern owner" issue? From a collector/aesthetic perspective the "modern scoped" double rifle is an offensive thing to look at and will lower the value of a British double and may lower the value of a non-brit double if the person is a traditionalist. What do I mean? I mean $750 EAW pivot mounts. $350 Talley Mounts. $800 Recknagel mounts. All good mounting systems that would typically provide return to zero of MOA or 2 MOA even if haphazardly reinstalled. Technically they are not terrible options on a double rifle as they are all quality. They are ugly options when it comes to how they obstruct the sights and how they look when dressed down to create a sight channel on a classic double rifle according to the British Double sensibilities that govern the collector market for all doubles. They don't look "right" to begin with as they are modern functional mounts, not works of art. (i.e. think Blaser...not winning traditional beauty contests)

To put it another way so as to hopefully not get people hopping mad I'm calling their favorite guns and mounts ugly, let me try it this way.

Best British doubles are replicas of vintage British doubles. Everything is a synergy of form, conformation, function and fit. Every option like optical mounts MUST appear to be a natural part of the firearm with no appearance of being vestigial or an unwanted appendage. Most scope mounts are offensive to those British sensibilities in the same way as a set of bull horns from Boss Hog's Cadillac would offend if installed on the front of a ferrari. These aesthetic and collector sensibilities of the British (that you will follow if you don't want to turn an $80,000 gun into a $30,000 gun instantly) create a culture of what is "right" and "wrong" to do with a double rifle that trickles down to the relatively affordable modern guns.

***Disclaimer*** These opinions are mine based on the principles of collector value and resale of fine double rifles. The opinion is not meant to disparage blazers, heyms, krieghoffs, searcys, VCs, Chapuis, merkels, and Lebeau Courallys.
 
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You and I will absolutely agree that glass on a double will work and help wring maximum versatility from a double rifle.

However, I would conservatively estimate since WWI, that for every English double equipped with a telescopic sight there are 50 German and Austrian doubles so configured. Throw in combination guns, another English aversion (and yes, I know they built some), and the ratio would be closer to at least 100 to one. Deutschland Uber Alles!:)

I would agree with most of that statement! However, The Germans have always been far ahead of the English in the practical fitting and configuration of hunting firearms. In my collection of multi-barreled hunting firearms I would say far more than half are German products.

Properly mounted a rifle of any configuration that will be used for hunting dangerous game should be fitted with quality iron sights, and if fitted with a scope, that scope should be mounted in quality quick detachable rings and bases so the scope can be removed, and replaced without loosing zero. All my single barreled rifles from .375H&H up are so fitted. I have now afflicted with macular degeneration in my right eye, so that I can't see the irons well, but can still see the illuminated center dot in a scope.

Now I'm forced to mount one power on the low end scopes on all my double rifles and combination guns in quick detach mounts. This will allow me to shoot with both eyes open letting the binocular effect making my vision seem as one picture with the apex of the post and crosshair visible. This is not a simple undertaking, nor will it be inexpensive. However if I had mounted scopes on those rifle at purchase, the pain wouldn't have been so intense!

I suppose my being in my eightieth year of life, certain things must just be lived with.

:A Band:and that is the name of that tune!
 
Great Post Rookhawk. I hope to own a double in the future, but I will have to scope it due to my eyesight. Even once I scope it, I will
continue to be of the belief that doubles shouldn't be scoped!!!
 
@DUGABOY1 , I understand your scope requirement. If you want another solution to your problem that would save you a bundle, look into high quality reflex sights. Best quality ones are around $700 and would save you a LOT of mounting headaches too.

A number of my elephant hunter friends are using them now as they sight easily, instantaneously and if you are in a hurry and have a half-ass gun mount as you're trying to stop a charge you can still see point of impact precisely. No matter what cockeyed angle you look through a reflex sight, the dot is is where the bullet will go. The aforementioned feature is something that no scope can provide you and you're spending an awful lot of money for a 1-4 or 1-6 scope only to crank it down to 1x power.

keep hunting @DUGABOY1 !
 
Perhaps there is an aversion to the costs involved in a proper scope mount for a double rifle that creates sour grapes? Holland Style Claw Mounts and German Style Claw Mounts are $2500-$3500 for parts and labor. (optic not included)

Perhaps its misunderstood benefits? Those would be the two very traditional and truly reliable "return to zero" scope mounts for double rifles. Ultimate versatility in that you can shoot with a scope when you must and yet take the optic off the second you are looking for a wounded animal in thick jess.

Perhaps its a collector versus "modern owner" issue? From a collector/aesthetic perspective the "modern scoped" double rifle is an offensive thing to look at and will lower the value of a British double and may lower the value of a non-brit double if the person is a traditionalist. What do I mean? I mean $750 EAW pivot mounts. $350 Talley Mounts. $800 Recknagel mounts. All good mounting systems that would typically provide return to zero of MOA or 2 MOA even if haphazardly reinstalled. Technically they are not terrible options on a double rifle as they are all quality. They are ugly options when it comes to how they obstruct the sights and how they look when dressed down to create a sight channel on a classic double rifle according to the British Double sensibilities that govern the collector market for all doubles. They don't look "right" to begin with as they are modern functional mounts, not works of art. (i.e. think Blaser...not winning traditional beauty contests)

To put it another way so as to hopefully not get people hopping mad I'm calling their favorite guns and mounts ugly, let me try it this way.

Best British doubles are replicas of vintage British doubles. Everything is a synergy of form, conformation, function and fit. Every option like optical mounts MUST appear to be a natural part of the firearm with no appearance of being vestigial or an unwanted appendage. Most scope mounts are offensive to those British sensibilities in the same way as a set of bull horns from Boss Hog's Cadillac would offend if installed on the front of a ferrari. These aesthetic and collector sensibilities of the British (that you will follow if you don't want to turn an $80,000 gun into a $30,000 gun instantly) create a culture of what is "right" and "wrong" to do with a double rifle that triples down to the relatively affordable modern guns.

***Disclaimer*** These opinions are mine based on the principles of collector value and resale of fine double rifles. The opinion is not meant to disparage blazers, heyms, krieghoffs, searcys, VCs, Chapuis, merkels, and Lebeau Courallys.

Good thoughtful post. I think you are essentially correct. The English double is expected to "look" and be used in a certain way. What drives me a bit to distraction is how this essentially esthetic opinion (strongly held by many people with fairly limited experience with doubles), confuses decisions about usability - particularly for those just embarking on the purchase of a double. And as Mark notes above, there are a host of rifles, largely built on the continent, which were designed for general purpose hunting and designed from jump street to use a scope as a dismountable option. And to the German speaking owner, they look aesthetically correct. I would contend, such a rifle, has far more utility to the average hunter than an open sighted English stopping rifle.

I was in camp a few years ago, with a fellow on his first dangerous game hunt for buffalo. He had a lovely early post war Birmingham built .470. I suspect the last time he had used open sights extensively was on a BB gun in his youth. But he had been convinced that this rifle was the perfect selection for a buffalo. I arrived about mid-way in his hunt and he had already failed to get a shot at two or three bulls because he couldn't clearly see the target. He was frustrated and the poor PH was sighing a lot. On about day seven he fired early in the morning, and by dusk they had finally tracked the animal down and put him away. No dramatic charge, but based on the story, I am not sure if it was a lethal hit or the simple weight of lead, that cause the bull to quit.

That hunter, and most of us, would have been far better served with a double designed to effectively perform the client's mission - put that first bullet exactly where it needs to go when presented any reasonable opportunity. A scoped, accurate double makes that possible. An esthetically pleasing stopping rifle is, to my mind, one of the worst choices for that role. Fortunately, a lot of inter-war German and Austrian rifles are still out there (US and Canadian troops "liberated" quite a few). On most, the claw mounts are already in place, and several gunsmiths in this country can easily and fairly economically, build a set rings to fit which will hold a modern scope.

An exception to this is, of course, elephant. the client will be very close, and a stopping rifle would be very appropriate. But that is pretty much a one mission investment. I would also second the notion of the new low-profile reflex sights. They work, and we have adapted them on all our current combat rifles.
 
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