Protruding Primers 9.5 x 57 MS

[Ed McGraw]

I did not notice that it was more than a year since the original post was made. Your points are well taken. I have seen those results before caused from low pressure. If I'm forming cases I always make the case to fit the rifle. It just makes things easier for me and I don't have problems like that. My thought was that his cases weren't formed correctly resulting in a self-created head space issue. Some shooters believe if they have a head space issue it resides completely in their rifle but it can easily be in their ammo. If one pushes the shoulder back too far it will no longer head space correctly. By fitting the case to the rifle these problems are minimized.

 

[Frederik Badenhorst]

Hi Ed!

I actually really appreciated that you posted on this thread again. Its good solid advice.

It pushed the 9.5 Mannlicher to the front of my to do list for gun related projects.

Cheers

Frederik

 

[Ed McGraw]

Frederik,

I am a little envious of your 1910 Mannlicher. The Mannlicher stands on the top of the pile for good looking rifles.

Thanks!

Ed

 

[Clodo Ferreira]

Hi Frederik,

I see the protruding primers as a clear sign of very low pressure.
I had a M-Sch GK 7x64 also in rifle (60 cm barrel lenght) form. Perhaps the best factory made rifle I ever had.
But, the issue: by design, the M-Schoenauer action has a very heavy firing pin. So the blow of the firing pin on the primer is very hard as a mean to assure the primer ignition. Don't forget this action has a military origin.
Because of that, the tremendous energy and momentum of the firing pin can (and it does...!) push the case hard on the shoulder chamber, shortening the base-shoulder length of the case, reaching the point of creating an actual excessive headspace!!! This situation can varies depending the strength of the cases....
Reloading my M-Sch GK I discovered this effect because the life of the cases was relatively short vs a Mauser 98 action. I couldn't reload my cases (best RWS ones) more than 5 times with normal loads. Less with every other case brand. Even with the least rezising compatible with a relatively easy chambering.
So, if the load used produce very low pressure I am sure the protruding primer is inevitable.
Good luck!

CF

 

[fourfive8]

The case, powder charge and bullet have too much inertia for a firing pin strike to force the case forward much at all. The primer detonation and impulse does and is what accounts for most of the forward movement of the cartridge until that movement is arrested by whatever headspace control the cartridge has.

The sequence of events for a cartridge with shoulder type headspace control is:

1) firing pin hits primer
2) primer detonates
3) force of detonation pushes both directions- basic law of physics
4) the cartridge moves forward until stopped by the "headspace control" of the cartridge simultaneously
with the primer moving rearward
5) the powder charge ignites and pressurizes the case
6) the forward portion of the case body, shoulder and neck expand and momentarily "stick" against
the chamber walls
7) IF there is enough pressure to exceed the tensile strength of the case walls, the base section of the
case stretches rearward, re-seating the primer as the head stops against the bolt face
8) IF there is not enough pressure to exceed the tensile strength of the case walls, the base sections does
not move rearward and the primer remains popped out.

 

[Clodo Ferreira]

Hi fourfive8,

Accurate sequence of events description. The effect of a too heavy and high momentum firing pin blow on the case I described before is not only an idea of mine. Has been described and I experimented it.

 

[Brian Rothhammer]

Interesting, indeed.

I have some Qual Cart 9.5X57 but have not had the occasion to load or shoot any of it yet.

I'd absolutely go with a chamber cast and compare dimensions to this original Eley (Kynoch) drawing. It also wouldn't hurt to find and purchase some original DWM 531 or even a box of current Kynoch cartridges (when you can find the expensive buggers) to compare measurements. They make dandy 'case candy' for an M1910, anyhow.

DWM 531

 

[Brian Rothhammer]

Here are some 9.5X57 cartridges:

Left to right: 1) As purchased from Reed's Ammunition of Oklahoma, 2) an old handload of mine made from fresh .35 Whelen brass cut down and drawn once through an RCBS two die set, 3) original DWM 531 from 1926, 4) once fired brass from one of my old handloads (as #2).

My 'old handloads' used 42 grains IMR4895 behind Hornady 3715 (270 grain RN which are now nearly extinct).
They loaded, cycled, and shot flawlessly.

 

[Brian Rothhammer]

Every cartridge that came out of the gun had protruding primers with rounded edges and a ring on the neck and just below the shoulder of the cartridge

What is the measurement from the base of the fired cartridge case to the 'ring' beneath the shoulder?
What is the measurement from the base of the fired cartridge case to the 'new' shoulder?

Is either consistent with the Eley drawing? Your case may be telling you that your chamber has been recut.
Also, compare measurements of a raw Qual Cart case to one you have loaded to see if you've pushed the shoulder down and of an unfired cartridge to the Eley drawing.

 

[Brian Rothhammer]

I cannot recall the breech-bolt details of your rifle

A post on **NOT**PERMITTED**: http://forums.**NOT**PERMITTED**.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=320332&Main=320248

This animation shows a 'Greek' military contract Mannlicher Schoenauer (Y1903 - 6.5X54). The bolt handle is different but the action, magazine, are identical to MS sporting rifles and carbines (M1903, M1905, M1908, M1910, M1924) and the trigger assembly the same as those with single trigger.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Hi

I'm hoping to pick the collective brain of the forum members!

I recently started reloading for a Mannlicher Schoenauer 1910 - 9.5 x 57 MS

I slowly started with a load of 41 gr of IMR 3031 that gave me about 1750fps and I increased the load by 1 gr of powder up to 44 gr which gave a velocity of 1945 fps
I use standard rifle primers and a 270gr RNSN .375" Woodleigh bullet
Bear in mind the gun in question is the rifle version with 24 " barrel and not the carbine

Every cartridge that came out of the gun had protruding primers with rounded edges and a ring on the neck and just below the shoulder of the cartridge

No signs of excessive pressure were noted ie Heavy recoil or a stiff bolt

So the question is - Is this a headspace problem or is this insufficient velocity not reseating the primer
The primers stand about 0.0022" proud

Frederick Badenhorst.
It doesn't look like a powder/low pressure issue to me. If the pressures are to low the case wouldn't obturate to fill the chamber causing sooting on the neck and shoulder. This isn't happening.
I have only had this problem once before, it was caused by a minor headspace issue combined with an oversized firing pin hole. This was solved by only sizing the case to a slight crush fit in the chamber and rebushing the firing pin hole.
It has also been known to happen in some European rifles chambered for metric cartridges using cartridges made in the USA. SAAMI & CPI chamber dimensions can and do vary causing the same problem.
It's a very common problem in the 22 Hornet and some 6.5x55s.
Just my thoughts and experience.
Cheers mate Bob

 

[Frederik Badenhorst]

Hi Guys

Finally an update!

Truth be told I tried my hand at chamber casting 1 year ago with this particular rifle....it was an atrocious experience. I ended up having to use a blow torch to get the chamber cast out of the chamber. After watching all the videos and reading a lot of post on chamber casting and seeing the relative ease with what it was achieved I though it might be my inexperience in that field or defective cefosafe.

So after a year of procrastination I roped in a good friend of mine to assist me with this process. He has extensive experience in chamber casting. We wanted to cast 3 different rifle chambers that day and all went well until we attempted to cast the MS 1910. We lubed the barrel sufficiently and only tried to get a bit of the rifling in the cast.We didn't want to go too deep down the barrel so we set the plug just were the rifling started.

So of course the cast got stuck again and after a good amount of pounding the plug with a cleaning rod and a hammer and attempting to heat the chamber with a hairdryer , all suggestions from the internet , we had to revert back to the trusty old blowtorch.

So on the second round we were very cautious and this resulted in only a partial cast (At least we got the plug out this time)- I will include the partial cast photo .It lead to an interesting discovery.

The 3rd round we attempted casting the chamber again.....it gave us exactly the same result as the first cast and the blowtorch was called into service again.....frustrating to no end.

Now the findings........the 2nd cast reviled a ring similar to what I have seen on the brass just before the shoulder.

What can that mean?

Did someone clean up the chamber?

Was it reamed out?

Any suggestions would be appreciated!

Cheers

 

[Ed McGraw]

Fredrick,

It appears that your chamber is scored. The shoulder angle matches those on my cartridge after firing.

I don't know if it has been re-reamed or not. It looks like there was a case separation sometime in the past and the wrong tool was used to remove it.

It could have been a result of a chip in the reamer when it was originally chambered but I doubt it would have left the factory with that.

I'm wondering what does the shoulder measure?

Ed

 

[Frederik Badenhorst]

Hi Ed

Thanks for your thoughts

Unfortunately I was unable to measure the shoulder to base length as we only got a partial cast - No base.

It would be a funny place to get case separation though.

Kind regards

Frederik

 

[Ed McGraw]

I actually have had separations in that area. I agree that most of the time it occurs closer to the base of the case.

Studying the casting it appears that the ring protrudes into casting, not into the wall of the chamber. Almost like the inside of the chamber had been forced down toward the shoulder causing a ring by a screwdriver or something when it was turned in an attempt to remove the case. Is the ring a "dent" into the casting or does it feel like a bump when you run your finger nail over it? If the ring causes a dent in the casting it might be able to be polished out since the casting is a negative of the chamber. Either way it is a trip to the gunsmith.

You didn't say if you had any issues extracting the live fire cartridge from the rifle. So maybe it has always been there and never caused a problem. I have seen a lot of people who don't reload fire off a round, run the bolt, eject the case and never look at it.

Ed

 

[Frederik Badenhorst]

Hi Ed

I had no difficulty with extraction and it is a dent, not a bump

Cheers

 

[Brian Rothhammer]

Hi Ed

Thanks for your thoughts

Unfortunately I was unable to measure the shoulder to base length as we only got a partial cast - No base.

It would be a funny place to get case separation though.

Kind regards

Frederik

Back to these questions:

What is the measurement from the base of the fired cartridge case to the 'ring' beneath the shoulder?
What is the measurement from the base of the fired cartridge case to present shoulder?

How do they compare to the Eley drawing?

Compare measurements of a raw Qual Cart case to one you have loaded to see if you've pushed the shoulder down. Also compare an unfired cartridge to the Eley drawing.

Also, we haven't seen any photos of the rifle. Is the barrel original?

 

[Frederik Badenhorst]

Back to these questions:

What is the measurement from the base of the fired cartridge case to the 'ring' beneath the shoulder?
What is the measurement from the base of the fired cartridge case to present shoulder?

How do they compare to the Eley drawing?

Compare measurements of a raw Qual Cart case to one you have loaded to see if you've pushed the shoulder down. Also compare an unfired cartridge to the Eley drawing.

Also, we haven't seen any photos of the rifle. Is the barrel original?

Sorry Brian

I missed your initial questions

Here are my answers

1.What is the measurement from the base of the fired cartridge case to the 'ring' beneath the shoulder?

1.743" from base to the first ring -below the shoulder -this ring is only a semi-circle and does not complete a full circle -I would say about 160 degrees

2.What is the measurement from the base of the fired cartridge case to the present shoulder?

1.831"

The fired case has the following measurement differences.

Base to Shoulder :Eley 1.825" -Fired -1.841"
Shoulder diameter:Eley 0.455" -Fired -0.452"
Distance between shoulder and neck:Eley 0.075" -Fired -0.057"
Base Diameter: Eley 0.468" -Fired -0.467"

The second ring is close to the cartridge mouth is totally circumferential. Its an indent in the cartridge wall that looks superficial.

3.Compare measurements of a raw Quality Cartridges case to one you have loaded to see if you've pushed the shoulder down. Also compare an unfired cartridge to the Eley drawing.

It looks like the Quality cartridge is pretty near the drawing by Eley. It seems like the fired cartridges did expand a bit.

4.Also, we haven't seen any photos of the rifle. Is the barrel original

the barrel is definitely original

Cheers

 

[Ed McGraw]

That is one good looking rifle!!!

 

[Frederik Badenhorst]

That is one good looking rifle!!!

Thanks Ed