Protruding Primers 9.5 x 57 MS

Discussion in 'Reloading' started by Frederik Badenhorst, Aug 3, 2018.

  1. Frederik Badenhorst

    Frederik Badenhorst AH Senior Member

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    Hi

    I'm hoping to pick the collective brain of the forum members!

    I recently started reloading for a Mannlicher Schoenauer 1910 - 9.5 x 57 MS

    I slowly started with a load of 41 gr of IMR 3031 that gave me about 1750fps and I increased the load by 1 gr of powder up to 44 gr which gave a velocity of 1945 fps
    I use standard rifle primers and a 270gr RNSN .375" Woodleigh bullet
    Bear in mind the gun in question is the rifle version with 24 " barrel and not the carbine

    Every cartridge that came out of the gun had protruding primers with rounded edges and a ring on the neck and just below the shoulder of the cartridge

    No signs of excessive pressure were noted ie Heavy recoil or a stiff bolt

    So the question is - Is this a headspace problem or is this insufficient velocity not reseating the primer
    The primers stand about 0.0022" proud


    [​IMG] [​IMG]
     

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    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 3, 2018

  2. ZG47

    ZG47 AH Enthusiast

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    Classic headspace issue. I cannot recall the breech-bolt details of your rifle (Friday evening after dinner here) BUT if you can put the bolt together without the mainspring, a correctly resized empty case should provide a small amount of resistance as you turn the bolt handle down. No resistance means excessive resizing!
     

  3. Russ-F

    Russ-F AH Senior Member

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    The short answer is the protruding primer is likely to be due to too low a pressure. The effect may also be amplified but not in itself caused by having excessive headspace. The more the primer protrudes the more likely it is you’ve got excessive headspace as well as low pressure.

    Even with excessive headspace ‘normal’ pressure would still force the case head back against the bolt face thus effectively reseating the primer (stretching the case as well resulting in short case life). Too low a pressure can’t do this.

    I’ve experienced the effect once myself (albeit with less primer protrusion) with recommended ‘starting’ loads in a particular rifle which in my case had a very long freebore, (the headspace was minimal). The problem disappeared as the powder charge increased.
     

  4. 7x57Joe

    7x57Joe AH Veteran

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    The protruding primer issue has been addressed, simply back off the resizing die but, the problem at the other end, the neck, seems to be more of a problem. Is the case the correct length? If yes, then it looks as if the rifle is short chambered and the neck is being forced into the lead which will result in the very end of the case being smaller than the rest of the neck. It would help to make a chamber cast so you could find what you are dealing with.
     
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  5. tarbe

    tarbe AH ENABLER AH Legend

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    I would definitely do a chamber cast before loading any more ammo.
     
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  6. Frederik Badenhorst

    Frederik Badenhorst AH Senior Member

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    Hi Guys

    Thanks for all the valuable contributions

    I really appreciate all the input!
     

  7. fourfive8

    fourfive8 AH Fanatic

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    +1 about the chamber cast.
     

  8. HWL

    HWL AH Fanatic

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    Try a factory load and you will have a perfect primer....

    There is no problem with the gun but your cases.

    As far as I can see, your cases are reformed, probably from .30-06 ?

    You have pushed the shoulder to far back,..... throw them away and try new one with correct shoulder position.


    HWL (reloading 9,5x57 for 4 guns & over 40 years....)
     

  9. Frederik Badenhorst

    Frederik Badenhorst AH Senior Member

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    Brand new 9.5x57 MS Qual Cartridge brass at 44gr of IMR 3031

    It sounds like that is a pretty standard load
     

  10. sestoppelman

    sestoppelman AH ENABLER AH Ambassador

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    If the brass didn't have the rings when you loaded them, they shouldn't have them now. As suggested, cast the chamber and see what the true dimensions are and load from there. But it looks like headspace.
     

  11. HWL

    HWL AH Fanatic

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    Ok, You did not made all the mistakes I made......

    Nontheless, I would fire a factory load, to see how this case looks like.

    ...same number on action and bolt?..... still the original barrel?

    For the Mannlicher addicted,... a pic oft the rifle would be nice!


    HWL
     

  12. Brian Rothhammer

    Brian Rothhammer AH Senior Member

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    What ever happened with this? Did you 'slug' the bore? If so, did it show to have been rebored or was it within 9.5X57 specifications?

    MS Eley 95Mann-Schon.jpg
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2019

  13. bruce moulds

    bruce moulds AH Elite

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    do NOT fire this rifle until you establish the cause of excessive headspace.
    this could be in the action, the chamber, or the brass.
    22 thou is the least it could be, and could be more.
    if a case fails due to thos there will be a lot of high pressre extremely hot gas going somewhere.
    the rings on the front of the cases are another issue, not good also, but not as dangerous as the headspace.
    bruce.
     

  14. Frederik Badenhorst

    Frederik Badenhorst AH Senior Member

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    Hi there!!

    Currently in South Africa!

    Didn’t have a chance to cast the chamber yet, my attention got deverted for a while by a Model B 9x57 Mauser Sporter.

    When I get back I will cast the chamber and let you guys know what the outcome was

    Rereading a bunch of posts on different forums seems to suggest that having headspace issues with the pre war Mannlicher Schönauers is common

    Kind regards
     
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  15. bruce moulds

    bruce moulds AH Elite

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    frederik,
    most interesting that excess headspace is not uncommon.
    it is also known that some mausers developed this due to the lugs setting back, even with military 7x57 ammo.
    it is suspected that the lugs were not bearing evenly, and the one bearing set back until both lugd took the backthrust evenly.
    there were even jokes about not having to lap the lugs for even bearing, when a few hot loads would do the same.
    this is where fn mausers and later are superior to older ones.
    even say a mkX has better metallurgy than some of the older ones and resist setback more.
    could mannlichers have been blighted by a similar problem.
    the setback was caused by soft steel, and was still safer than some 03 springfields and more noteably some enfield m17s, possibly eddystones, which were too hard and just shattered.
    bruce.
     

  16. SJN

    SJN New Member

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    Hi Frederik

    I am a Mannlicher Schoenauer collector and reload for all of them. I have never experienced such excessive headspace as indicated by your pictures. I also suspect that your cases are not to speck. If you do have a factory cartridge, compare measurements especially the case length. To check headspace, see if you can chamber a round with a piece of paper between case head and bolt head. With a single sheet the bolt should close tight and with two sheets it should not close. This easy test will tell you what the problem is.
     
    bruce moulds likes this.

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