Partially the reason for some Creedmoor hate???

I’m not 100% sure what the rage is about. I can guaren-damn-tee there’s more than a few members who have taken three or more shots to take down an elk or similar sized animal at 1/5th the range (read the hunt reports). If you don’t like long range hunting, that’s fine, but this brings us back to the “if it’s legal” debate.
 
I don't hate the 6.5 creedmore but see no use for one at this time.If I had a youngster getting ready to hunt,I'd probably like it more.
 
I’m not 100% sure what the rage is about. I can guaren-damn-tee there’s more than a few members who have taken three or more shots to take down an elk or similar sized animal at 1/5th the range (read the hunt reports). If you don’t like long range hunting, that’s fine, but this brings us back to the “if it’s legal” debate.
I guess my concern with longer range hunting is this. There is an element of luck involved that can be the difference between a clean kill and a wounded animal that no amount of skill or training can overcome.

There are always factors outside the shooters control that can effect the fall of shot. Wind, terrain, temperature, elevation, minor inconsistencies in ammo, movement of the animal etc. At 100yds, the influence of these is minimal. Maybe a sudden and unexpected gust of wind or a slight variance in bullet bc shifts point of impact by half an inch. Maybe in the 1/10 of a second between pulling the trigger and bullet impact the animal can move an inch or two. Doesn't matter.

But at 1000, it's a different story. I used to shoot F class at 1000 fairly regularly with some pretty good shots (and some not so good ones such as myself). You could watch some of those guys hit v bulls three shots in a row printing only a couple of inches, then, on the same point of aim suddenly put one in the 3 or 4 ring nearly a foot away from the rest of the group. Why? The wind swung around and changed a bit, the ammo was slightly different, they changed their posture slightly, or a myriad of other factors. Just a 30fps drop in velocity at the muzzle is roughly 10" elevation change at 1000 with a .308win for instance and that sort of variance might be a difference between working out your drops at 60F and hunting at 40F. Most commercial ammo is +/-30fps or so across a 20round box. Even good hunting hand loads might be +/-10fps across 20 rounds. Or it's a couple thousand feet of altitude change between your practice range and the place where you make your hunting shot. Not much really and not something you can really account for in real time.

Then it's going to take the bullet over a second to reach the animal after you pull the trigger. Maybe in that time the animal can decide to take a pace forwards and moves a foot. You can't predict that behavior 100% and you can't recall the bullet, so you're relying on luck. A foot is the difference between a clean H/L hit and a gut shot, and if you're a thousand yards away, you're not gonna find that animal quickly if at all.

It's even harder if it's a cold bore single shot you've got to get right first time. Plenty of those same F class shooters I RO'd for might put their first sighter a foot or even a couple of foot away from v bull on the first 'no data' SWAG for point of aim. Skill can of course influence that, but you're a better shooter than any I've seen if you can walk out on any given day, plop yourself down on a target at a distance of 1000yds with only minimal info on wind direction across the bullet path, temp, elevation etc and have 100% confidence that their first round will be within 5" of the center of a target.

Hell, the v bull on a 1000yd F class target is 5" across and it was so unusual to hit it with the first shot that we used to give out key rings to folks who managed it. In a field of 30 or so shooters over the year, we'd typically hand out 5 or 6, and that was across roughly 10 calendar fixtures, so 300 attempts. A roughly 2% success rate for a single cold bore shot, at a known 1000yd distance, at the same range they zeroed at, with a 20lb F class rifle off a machine rest, with wind flags every 100yds, into a 5" target. Not great.

I personally think the animal deserves better.
 
How is that any different than shooting a buffalo at 100 yards 5 times? Or wounding a buffalo and tracking it for hours before finally putting it away.

Heck, in the Elk story while the distance shot is not something most would recommend at least they killed the animal pretty quickly.
There is a big difference in what is realistic or not.

Anyone is expected to place a shot on a open hand sized target at 100m ; if you cant because you flinch you should not be shooting that .500 at the Buffalo.
Not everyone can place a shot at 1000m, at that range even the "experts" cant group for sh$#.
 
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I guess my concern with longer range hunting is this. There is an element of luck involved that can be the difference between a clean kill and a wounded animal that no amount of skill or training can overcome.

There are always factors outside the shooters control that can effect the fall of shot. Wind, terrain, temperature, elevation, minor inconsistencies in ammo, movement of the animal etc. At 100yds, the influence of these is minimal. Maybe a sudden and unexpected gust of wind or a slight variance in bullet bc shifts point of impact by half an inch. Maybe in the 1/10 of a second between pulling the trigger and bullet impact the animal can move an inch or two. Doesn't matter.

But at 1000, it's a different story. I used to shoot F class at 1000 fairly regularly with some pretty good shots (and some not so good ones such as myself). You could watch some of those guys hit v bulls three shots in a row printing only a couple of inches, then, on the same point of aim suddenly put one in the 3 or 4 ring nearly a foot away from the rest of the group. Why? The wind swung around and changed a bit, the ammo was slightly different, they changed their posture slightly, or a myriad of other factors. Just a 30fps drop in velocity at the muzzle is roughly 10" elevation change at 1000 with a .308win for instance and that sort of variance might be a difference between working out your drops at 60F and hunting at 40F. Most commercial ammo is +/-30fps or so across a 20round box. Even good hunting hand loads might be +/-10fps across 20 rounds. Or it's a couple thousand feet of altitude change between your practice range and the place where you make your hunting shot. Not much really and not something you can really account for in real time.

Then it's going to take the bullet over a second to reach the animal after you pull the trigger. Maybe in that time the animal can decide to take a pace forwards and moves a foot. You can't predict that behavior 100% and you can't recall the bullet, so you're relying on luck. A foot is the difference between a clean H/L hit and a gut shot, and if you're a thousand yards away, you're not gonna find that animal quickly if at all.

It's even harder if it's a cold bore single shot you've got to get right first time. Plenty of those same F class shooters I RO'd for might put their first sighter a foot or even a couple of foot away from v bull on the first 'no data' SWAG for point of aim. Skill can of course influence that, but you're a better shooter than any I've seen if you can walk out on any given day, plop yourself down on a target at a distance of 1000yds with only minimal info on wind direction across the bullet path, temp, elevation etc and have 100% confidence that their first round will be within 5" of the center of a target.

Hell, the v bull on a 1000yd F class target is 5" across and it was so unusual to hit it with the first shot that we used to give out key rings to folks who managed it. In a field of 30 or so shooters over the year, we'd typically hand out 5 or 6, and that was across roughly 10 calendar fixtures, so 300 attempts. A roughly 2% success rate for a single cold bore shot, at a known 1000yd distance, at the same range they zeroed at, with a 20lb F class rifle off a machine rest, with wind flags every 100yds, into a 5" target. Not great.

I personally think the animal deserves better.
I'm not for nor against people taking shots at distance. Comparing F-class to field work. Well they are not the same. Many people shoot field style matches (Mainly called PRS now). They are expected to make first round hits at distance in all kinds of conditions. That's not luck, that is training. We have equipment that allows us to read DA on the fly and get real time readings and make adjustments on the fly. Most F-class guys sight their rifle in to that distance, they are given sighters to confirm their zero in that condition. Field matches you do not get that luxury.

Competition is one thing animals are another. Personally have made first round hits at a mile on small (10") plates. Doesn't mean I'm take a shot on an animal at 800 yards. It all depends on the conditions, if we have no wind I'll take a longer shot if that is the only option I have. If the wind is blowing hard and letting off and real crazy shots will be more limited (speaking for myself).

As far as reloading goes, we have come a long ways there too. Most all of my competition rifles loads are below 5fps SD. I ran Federal GMM Berger 185s through my 308, 10 shots SD 3.4fps. Things are getting better with time. Now I will admit not all factory ammo shoots like that, most are close if not worse than you described.
 
I'm not for nor against people taking shots at distance. Comparing F-class to field work. Well they are not the same. Many people shoot field style matches (Mainly called PRS now). They are expected to make first round hits at distance in all kinds of conditions. That's not luck, that is training. We have equipment that allows us to read DA on the fly and get real time readings and make adjustments on the fly. Most F-class guys sight their rifle in to that distance, they are given sighters to confirm their zero in that condition. Field matches you do not get that luxury.

Competition is one thing animals are another. Personally have made first round hits at a mile on small (10") plates. Doesn't mean I'm take a shot on an animal at 800 yards. It all depends on the conditions, if we have no wind I'll take a longer shot if that is the only option I have. If the wind is blowing hard and letting off and real crazy shots will be more limited (speaking for myself).

As far as reloading goes, we have come a long ways there too. Most all of my competition rifles loads are below 5fps SD. I ran Federal GMM Berger 185s through my 308, 10 shots SD 3.4fps. Things are getting better with time. Now I will admit not all factory ammo shoots like that, most are close if not worse than you described.
I've played a bit at PRS. Competitors are expected to make first round hits, yes. But not many of them do so consistently enough to hit every target over the course of fire. PRS is a different skill set and equipment focus as you note, with more emphasis on those range estimation, first time hit skills, but it's still not enough of a 'sure thing' that I'd do it on a living target, especially one that might relocate itself in the time interval from trigger pull to bullet impact if it's so inclined.

Also, training can only allow one to know the aim point under the conditions observed. It doesn't matter how good your training is if the conditions (wind primarily) change between working out the correct aim point and pulling the trigger 5 seconds later. And conditions do change, and there is guesstimation involved no matter how much kit you have (you know wind direction and strength at the firing point, but do you know the wind strength at 200, 500, 800yds? You can estimate based on mirage or whatever, but you don't know, nor does mirage necessarily clue you in to stuff like eddies in wind across topography or whatever).

As for the F class vs long range hunting comparison, I think it's valid. F class is if anything easier than hunting in pretty much every respect (at least in terms of the uncontrolled factors that'd prevent you hitting a specified area at any given range) yet the majority of competitors I've seen can't make reliable kill shots every time even under those conditions.

I too have made 1st round hits on 5" v bulls at 1000 and 1200 several times over the years. I've even done that with open sights once with a target rifle. But I haven't done it consistently enough that I'd put money on doing so right now, first time if you asked me to, and that's surely the gold standard required to make a shot on a live animal?

As for the reloading commentary, your results seem similar to mine, which is to be expected as this F class experience was only a year or two ago. 10 shots with an SD of 3.4fps means 99.7% of rounds within 10.2fps and 95% of them within 6.8fps. 5fps SD means 15 and 10fps at those confidence intervals. Pretty standard. Not the best I've ever seen reported (benchrest folks), but really good solid comp ammo for sure. I don't think things have changed radically in the homeloading scene since the 2000's in terms of consistency of SDs though. My hunting ammo was never as good as my comp ammo either, and I'm sure that's true for most people.
 
I have a 6.5 creed and a 26” barrel

I’m fairly confident of a 8”gong hit at 900 yards

at 1250 yards I hardly ever get wind calls right.

despite home loads, known MV, small extreme spread and the fancy gadgets like kestrel and applied ballistics’s custom ballistic data I’m struggling at that distance - even on a 2 MOA target

I do occasionally use it for hunting, but my max comfortable range is 350 yards

risk of injury and terminal energy are always in my mind
 
The rifle is just the tool… had the 6.5 CM not been developed, the same father and son duo would have committed the same act with another caliber…

The tools behind the rifle are to blame… not the rifle/caliber itself…
 
I have a 6.5 creed and a 26” barrel

I’m fairly confident of a 8”gong hit at 900 yards

at 1250 yards I hardly ever get wind calls right.

despite home loads, known MV, small extreme spread and the fancy gadgets like kestrel and applied ballistics’s custom ballistic data I’m struggling at that distance - even on a 2 MOA target

I do occasionally use it for hunting, but my max comfortable range is 350 yards

risk of injury and terminal energy are always in my mind

I totally agree. I enjoy ringing steel at long range, but I limit my hunting range to what I am comfortable with. This varies based on wind conditions, shooting position, lighting, etc.
 
I see the 6.5 Creedmoor as a "pop culture" cartridge, and I have no use for that when the 260 rem already exists. While invented to be a long range target cartridge, its popularity is really due to the light recoil suitable for youth hunters where parents want better performance than the 243 but less recoil than the 7mm-08. My preference is, again, the 260 rem but it's just not available in a lot rifles. It is seeing a resurgence, but in ARs
 
The kid shot a nice bull at 1100 yds with a 6.5 CM. First shot in the guts, second in the hip and third in the neck. Classless shooting is all it was and the father should be admonished for encouraging it.
Let's say that you have practiced a lot at 1000 yards. You know that you can hit the target every time. Now you have an elk standing broadside at 1000 yards. There is no wind and every thing is perfect, like that ever happens when you're actually hunting. I believe it takes over a second for a bullet to travel 1000 yards. Just as the trigger breaks, the elk starts to walk. If you are lucky, the shot is a complete miss. If not, the animal is wounded and maybe not recovered.
To my way of thinking, no matter the cartridge, equipment, or skill level of the shooter, there is no ethical situation where anyone should take a thousand yard shot at an unwounded animal. As we all know, things can go wrong even when when you are much closer. Has anyone never missed a game animal or never had to follow up after a shot? If anyone tells me they never have, I will have to tell them that they have little or no experience in the game field.
 
I have yet to see a long range "shooter" - I don't call them hunters - know the terminal ballistics of the bullet at the ranges they are shooting. Penetration, mushroom, etc are just as important than even a consistent hit in the vitals. Coyotes, varmits, maybe but not big game. Makes me sad to hear of a young person being taught that's hunting.
 
I see the 6.5 Creedmoor as a "pop culture" cartridge, and I have no use for that when the 260 rem already exists. While invented to be a long range target cartridge, its popularity is really due to the light recoil suitable for youth hunters where parents want better performance than the 243 but less recoil than the 7mm-08. My preference is, again, the 260 rem but it's just not available in a lot rifles. It is seeing a resurgence, but in ARs
The reason the 6.5CM is see the popularity is the support it is receiving from all flavors of manufacturers. From brass to loaded ammo to rifles being chambered. The hole it fills vs other 6.5mm cartridges you can buy ammo from 95gr up to 156gr, the twist rate on the barrels will support the bullets used. Companies like Ruger with the RPR, people where buying them shoot .5moa groups with factory ammo and hitting steel at 1k with less than 2500.00 wrapped up in their rig.

It was at the right place at the right time, nothing more nothing less. If you look at the prints it is really nothing more than a 22-250 necked up to 6.5mm. Before Lapua made brass for it, many were neck up that brass to get better primer pocket life. Back in the day 6-7 reloads if you were lucky.
 
Welcome to the world we live in. Everyone is a sniper and a 6.5CM can do it all.
 
Welcome to the world we live in. Everyone is a sniper and a 6.5CM can do it all.
I have had the honor of shooting against some of our country's snippers and others. I may have out shot them in a competition setting. That said I nor many other can perform their field craft. It takes a whole lot more than pressing a trigger and hitting a target to be a real sniper.

Many people like saying sniper, while shooting is a skill set a sniper must possess, it is not the only one.

Like others have said, if the 6.5CM had not been invented, people would still do it. Chances are the word Weatherby would be involved in the name.
 
For me it is about the hunt....I want to be close as close as possible....sometimes I win sometimes whatever I am hunting wins....that is also what keeps me going back...same as fishing the one that got away.....
I could easily take my 30" barrelled 338 Lapua drkive into an open area and shoot game until the springs brake on the truck....whats the point?? Rather go to the butcher and buy meat.

Yes long range shooting must be exciting and to be able to do it you need a lot of practice and a certain skill set but keep it at that punshing paper or gongs or steel plates.

Some will play the is it legal card some will claim they can do it and some will claim if not done they will lose the trophy.....

For me it still remains the challenge of the hunt....the hours spent and the experiences gained along the way...all the other things that happened during the hunt is what makes the campfire stories....

Some you win and some you lose.

When I lose the desire to outsmart whatever I am hunting and the ability to accept that an animal has outsmarted me I will stop hunting.
 
You and your kid should get some good boots and spend time really hunting and stalking to get close to your game. I'm guessing this would create better memories, you'd be getting some great exercise, and you would be helping him develop real hunting skills. IMO
 
You and your kid should get some good boots and spend time really hunting and stalking to get close to your game. I'm guessing this would create better memories, you'd be getting some great exercise, and you would be helping him develop real hunting skills. IMO
The OP was quoting someone else, it wasn't him and his kid doing the shooting.
 
For me it is about the hunt....I want to be close as close as possible....sometimes I win sometimes whatever I am hunting wins....that is also what keeps me going back...same as fishing the one that got away.....
I could easily take my 30" barrelled 338 Lapua drkive into an open area and shoot game until the springs brake on the truck....whats the point?? Rather go to the butcher and buy meat.

Yes long range shooting must be exciting and to be able to do it you need a lot of practice and a certain skill set but keep it at that punshing paper or gongs or steel plates.

Some will play the is it legal card some will claim they can do it and some will claim if not done they will lose the trophy.....

For me it still remains the challenge of the hunt....the hours spent and the experiences gained along the way...all the other things that happened during the hunt is what makes the campfire stories....

Some you win and some you lose.

When I lose the desire to outsmart whatever I am hunting and the ability to accept that an animal has outsmarted me I will stop hunting.
+1! Before I hunted in Africa for PG this past June, the longest shot I ever took a big game animal with was about 250 yards on a pronghorn with my .270 from a sitting position using the sling. Every deer and elk I've taken here were within 150 yards. I have shot prairie dogs with my .22-250 from a bipod at 300-400 yards, but that's a completely different SHOOTING genre than big game HUNTING. I took an impala at a confirmed 287 yards downhill and a blesbok at an estimated 300+ yards with a .300WM off sticks. I hadn't really practiced for those longer shots off sticks much due to the weather here before my African hunt. I made the one kill shots with a broken rib though through sheer determination and for fear of being beaten by my PH with his sticks if I missed. LOL. Anyway, I MUCH prefer creeping around the edges of bush/forest when deer/elk hunting and shooting at shorter distances. I definitely think longer range shooting is definitely a practiced skill set and I marvel at those that can do it on big game on a consistent basis. Just not for me though.
 

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