P14 DG rifles

[Ray B]

@Ray B
Isn't the 8mm REM mag just a modified 375 case any hoo.

Basically it is, just as the 35 Whelen is a modified 30-06.

 

[Choupique]

love the cock on closing

Same. Its the correct way for bolt action rifles to function. I dont understand how cock on close became the standard. Its inferior.

 

[Ray B]

Same. Its the correct way for bolt action rifles to function. I dont understand how cock on close became the standard. Its inferior.

I must be missing something.

 

[Choupique]

must be missing something

I meant cock on opening becoming the standard, sorry for the confusion. Cock on close is definitely my preference.

Cock on close a 3 postion safety and a 2 stage trigger is the proper way for a bolt rifle to be. Not that it matters for a dangerous game rifle but they're easier to shoot prone and opening the bolt all of the leverage is used to extract the case, not extract and cock.

 

[csmiffy]

@csmiffy
Rent a reamer. There's a great gunsmith in Napier I think it is he may have one as well
Bob

Not any to rent Bob here in NZ. Tried a contact someone gave me on this forum for a guy in OZ, but never heard back. Got some good gunsmiths locally it's just the reamer.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

I meant cock on opening becoming the standard, sorry for the confusion. Cock on close is definitely my preference.

Cock on close a 3 postion safety and a 2 stage trigger is the proper way for a bolt rifle to be. Not that it matters for a dangerous game rifle but they're easier to shoot prone and opening the bolt all of the leverage is used to extract the case, not extract and cock.

I think you are confused? For cock on closing "all the leverage" is used to shut the bolt, not extract the case. It requires pushing the rifle away from the shoulder and down to cock. For my 98 Mauser and O3A3 cock on closing rifles, all the physical effort to cock occurs when the rifle remains seated in the shoulder and the bolt is lifted. No lateral "leverage" in either direction is required to cock so the butt stays put in shoulder. The same amount of leverage is needed to withdraw the bolt and extract the case no matter which cocking design is employed.

I know the Brits always claimed their Enfield could be fired faster than Mauser or Springfield because of the cock on closing design but I do not see how that could be possible. Maybe something else in the design ... or maybe the test was rigged. Also, for Mauser all the effort to cock is made with an empty case in the chamber. For Enfield the considerable effort to cock not only pushes the gun away from the shoulder, but it's with a live round in the chamber. And Enfield only has a two position safety so the wrestling to cock not only involves a live round, but rifle must be off safe. Mauser and Springfield have 3-position safeties so in theory when the bolt is closing (relatively effortlessly), the safety could be engaged. Enfield design is okay but it's not the greatest. And that stuff about them firing faster because of the cocking feature is pure myth. Anyway, for a dangerous game rifle I certainly do not want to be pushing the rifle away from my body to cock it. I don't generally cock either Mauser or Springfield on my shoulder but I generally don't have to make followup shots to save my life. If I do have to cycle the gun on my shoulder, I don't want to be fighting with it to load and cock. Lift the bolt and it's cocked is preferable. After that it's effortless cycling while I'm getting back on target.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

Oops. 03A3 and Mauser are cock on opening, not closing. Gad! I should never write anything before my morning coffee.

 

[Choupique]

I dont think im confused. The 1896 swedish is easily my favorite bolt action and ive send a lot of rounds down a few of them.

Ill stick to what ive shot a bunch -

With a model 70 or 700 (cock on open) it is very difficult to keep the rifle on target opening the bolt because of the torque you must apply to the rifle to open it. You're also splitting the force applied between cocking the bolt and extracting the case. With cock on close, assuming the case isnt stuck, opening is butter smooth.

When running a bolt quickly, I dont even notice the cocking effort when closing it. I was going to slam it shut anyway. I can see how someone who wasnt a bolt slammer like I am would prefer cock on close.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

I dont think im confused. The 1896 swedish is easily my favorite bolt action and ive send a lot of rounds down a few of them.

Ill stick to what ive shot a bunch -

With a model 70 or 700 (cock on open) it is very difficult to keep the rifle on target opening the bolt because of the torque you must apply to the rifle to open it. You're also splitting the force applied between cocking the bolt and extracting the case. With cock on close, assuming the case isnt stuck, opening is butter smooth.

When running a bolt quickly, I dont even notice the cocking effort when closing it. I was going to slam it shut anyway. I can see how someone who wasnt a bolt slammer like I am would prefer cock on close.

Ah. I think perhaps you've never handled a rifle that is cock-on-opening. The term is actually misleading. It should be "cock-on-lifting-the-bolt-handle." By the time the locking lugs are disengaged and the chamber is ready to be opened, the striker has already been cocked. There is no more effort involved in ejecting a cartridge/case from cock-on-opening than cock-on-closing. The effort is when the next cartridge in latter is pushed forward while striker is being cocked while the shooter is trying to engage the locking lugs while trying to keep the gun in shoulder pocket. He is fighting the resistance of striker spring while trying lock the bolt. This involves applying significant forward pressure away from the shoulder as well as downward to lock the bolt. Now tell me that equates to holding on target better when cycling the rifle. It does not. When I close the bolt on my Mauser, it is already cocked. It's cocked before the bolt ever picks up the next cartridge from the magazine. It was cocked before I ever even started to open the chamber. I'm not fighting against the striker spring when closing the bolt. This means as soon as the next cartridge in the stack is touched by the bolt face, I'm already able to smoothly start bringing the rifle back on target as the cartridge is slid into the chamber, all the while keeping the gun firmly in place on my shoulder (if needed). No slamming the bolt forward ... or backward ... is needed to cycle cock-on-opening. Perhaps with a lot of practice one can develop the reflexes to cycle cock-on-closing quickly. But accurately? I think that is debatable. On the other hand, a novice can very easily learn to cycle cock-on-opening quickly and, I think, relatively accurately. It's just the physics of the thing.

 

[Choupique]

tell me that equates to holding on target better when cycling the rifle. It does not.

We'll just have to disagree on this. I think converting a cock on close bolt rifle to something else is a step in the wrong direction. I have an easier time keeping my 1896 mauser on target through the cycling than I do keeping my model 70 on target, and its due to the amount of force it takes to get the bolt handle up.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

To clarify, for cock on opening the striker is ALMOST cocked when the bolt handle is lifted. The last little bit of cocking is finished when the bolt handle is locked down again. This is when the cocking piece sear engages the trigger sear. Exception would be when safety is in position two. Then the striker is locked in full cocked position. An old trick for exaggerating the smoothness of a for-sale Model 70: cock it, engage safety position two, hand it to prospective buyer, and invite him to cycle it. That way cycling skips that last little bit of cocking when bolt handle is locked down. "Oh my, that is smooth!" Interesting fact: I just checked how much final striker lift is involved in closing my two rifles. For 98 Mauser it is 0.12". For 03A3 Springfield it's only 0.07". The shorter lift = smoother cycling Springfield. Keep in mind this is only the final bit of cocking. It does not effect the energy impacting the primer as almost all the striker spring tension is loaded when the bolt handle is lifted. I would imagine one could adjust the final bit of striker lift by changing the contact between the two sears (cocking piece and/or trigger)?

 

[Ontario Hunter]

We'll just have to disagree on this. I think converting a cock on close bolt rifle to something else is a step in the wrong direction. I have an easier time keeping my 1896 mauser on target through the cycling than I do keeping my model 70 on target, and its due to the amount of force it takes to get the bolt handle up.

If I had to cycle my cock on opening rifles from the shoulder (as far as I know, I do not cycle them from the shoulder), they would be trapped between left hand on fore end, butt against my shoulder, and cheek against the comb while I'm raising the bolt handle to cock the striker. For cock on closing only the left hand holding the fore end maintains control. The force needed to push the bolt handle forward and down against the cocking spring tension pulls the gun forward away from the shoulder and downward away from the cheek. Is what it is.

As I said, I do not knowingly cycle my guns from the shoulder though I'm sure I could do it quite effectively if needed ... even without a lot of practice. That is the advantage of cock on opening. If I was building a DGR for someone and it was cock on closing, I would definitely change it to cock on opening. 3-position safety is sort of a luxury. Almost ranks up there with multi-leaf sights and barrel band sling swivels for frivolity. Five or six rounds in the rifle is just a frill. Someone who is such a shitty shot that he can throw four rounds downrange and still not have time or good sense to reload probably isn't going to save himself with one or two more in the gun. But a bolt action that cycles smoothly and reliably is essential for a DGR. We're not talking deer hunting. Anyone who feels a compulsion for fast shooting at deer probably missed a few hunters ed classes. I don't advocate it for dangerous game either. But if a life or death situation arises one needs to be prepared to followup quick and fast ... with the best and most reliable equipment.

 

[Certus]

I meant cock on opening becoming the standard, sorry for the confusion. Cock on close is definitely my preference.

Cock on close a 3 postion safety and a 2 stage trigger is the proper way for a bolt rifle to be. Not that it matters for a dangerous game rifle but they're easier to shoot prone and opening the bolt all of the leverage is used to extract the case, not extract and cock.

Im on the cock on closed side here. Whether it’s COO or COC your sight picture is going to be interrupted from the motion, so that point doesn’t hold for me. COC separates the force for extraction and breaking loose of the cartridge in the chamber from the force of cocking. Additionally when the force to cock the rifle happens with COC then it’s when you’ve already got momentum going to close the bolt, which also makes sense to me.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Ah. I think perhaps you've never handled a rifle that is cock-on-opening. The term is actually misleading. It should be "cock-on-lifting-the-bolt-handle." By the time the locking lugs are disengaged and the chamber is ready to be opened, the striker has already been cocked. There is no more effort involved in ejecting a cartridge/case from cock-on-opening than cock-on-closing. The effort is when the next cartridge in latter is pushed forward while striker is being cocked while the shooter is trying to engage the locking lugs while trying to keep the gun in shoulder pocket. He is fighting the resistance of striker spring while trying lock the bolt. This involves applying significant forward pressure away from the shoulder as well as downward to lock the bolt. Now tell me that equates to holding on target better when cycling the rifle. It does not. When I close the bolt on my Mauser, it is already cocked. It's cocked before the bolt ever picks up the next cartridge from the magazine. It was cocked before I ever even started to open the chamber. I'm not fighting against the striker spring when closing the bolt. This means as soon as the next cartridge in the stack is touched by the bolt face, I'm already able to smoothly start bringing the rifle back on target as the cartridge is slid into the chamber, all the while keeping the gun firmly in place on my shoulder (if needed). No slamming the bolt forward ... or backward ... is needed to cycle cock-on-opening. Perhaps with a lot of practice one can develop the reflexes to cycle cock-on-closing quickly. But accurately? I think that is debatable. On the other hand, a novice can very easily learn to cycle cock-on-opening quickly and, I think, relatively accurately. It's just the physics of the thing.

@Ontario Hunter
The thing that makes it harder to open the bolt on a cock in lifting the bolt ( as you say) has nothing to do with springs or anything else.
It's all to do with the cam angles cut in the bolt to achieve this action. The cam angles are different to cock in opening so makes unlockung it and the start of cocking the Stricker ( firing pin) easier. Less force to overcome the cams.
This initial resistance in some cock on opening can vary from rifle to rifle.
There aren't to many shooters/ hunters that have mastered the art of operating a bolt gun from the shoulder. If you watch most dismount the rifle to cycle the next round.
It a matter of to each his own preference.
Bob

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

If I had to cycle my cock on opening rifles from the shoulder (as far as I know, I do not cycle them from the shoulder), they would be trapped between left hand on fore end, butt against my shoulder, and cheek against the comb while I'm raising the bolt handle to cock the striker. For cock on closing only the left hand holding the fore end maintains control. The force needed to push the bolt handle forward and down against the cocking spring tension pulls the gun forward away from the shoulder and downward away from the cheek. Is what it is.

As I said, I do not knowingly cycle my guns from the shoulder though I'm sure I could do it quite effectively if needed ... even without a lot of practice. That is the advantage of cock on opening. If I was building a DGR for someone and it was cock on closing, I would definitely change it to cock on opening. 3-position safety is sort of a luxury. Almost ranks up there with multi-leaf sights and barrel band sling swivels for frivolity. Five or six rounds in the rifle is just a frill. Someone who is such a shitty shot that he can throw four rounds downrange and still not have time or good sense to reload probably isn't going to save himself with one or two more in the gun. But a bolt action that cycles smoothly and reliably is essential for a DGR. We're not talking deer hunting. Anyone who feels a compulsion for fast shooting at deer probably missed a few hunters ed classes. I don't advocate it for dangerous game either. But if a life or death situation arises one needs to be prepared to followup quick and fast ... with the best and most reliable equipment.

@Ontario Hunter
With cock on closing when manipulating the bolt from the shoulder the bolt is lifted just after the recoil impulse and when chambering a fresh round actually pushes the rifle down as you say bringing the rifle back in target quicker.
99% of the time I cycle the bolt if the rifle mounted in my shoulder.
Dismounting the rifle in a situation where the SHTF in dg hunt ( say during a buff charge) could result in a very messy situation.
Bob

 

[Daryl S]

I have both clock on opening and cock on closing bolt actions. They all work just fine. Same with safeties, some forward to fire, some back to fire - NP - figure it out, you're an adult (I hope).

 

[yumastepside]

Small bit of information for Ontario Hunter....the reason the British Enfields were so fast to fire was because of the 60 degree bolt lift......check out " the mad minute. "

Roger