Minimum 470 NE speeds

[wildwilderness]

I was looking at Barnes reloading data and notice the speeds for the 470 NE are generally on the slower side of what factory ammo advertises.


What do you think of these speed and would they be good enough for Elephant? A 500 gr solid at say 1875 fps for a heart shot?

 

[Wahoo]

I’d aim for 2050-2100 fps at the muzzle. I had good performance with my solids that were a little faster at 2165 but that’s were gun liked them regulation wise.

 

[AimSmall]

Speeds would need to be similar to the original regulation load to obtain matching poi from both barrels. Modern rifles are likely regulated with factory ammo which is usually ~2,150fps. Older rifles could be regulated with the slower speed ammo.

Also, at 1,850fps with a 500gr, the energy calculator says 3,800 ft lbs. At 2,150 it jumps to 5,133 ft lbs.

My rifle shoots (Barnes, Nosler, and Cutting Edge solids) best at ~2,100 - 2,150.

Will be curious to hear about actual field experience with the slower speed.

 

[deewayne2003]

Woodleigh load data

Ken Owen says that .470ne with 24” barrels should be regulated at 2050ish fps which is what my rifle does with 500gr Woodleigh RNSN or Hydro solid with 78gr IMR3031, foam wad & Win mag primer.

Worked great on my tuskless hunt

 

[rookhawk]

I’d aim for 2050-2100 fps at the muzzle. I had good performance with my solids that were a little faster at 2165 but that’s were gun liked them regulation wise.

@Wahoo has a modern Heym in 470NE. I have had two 470NEs that were contemporary with his within 300 serial numbers +/- on both sides. So all have equal metallurgy and tolerance for "hot loads" that a vintage double rifle cannot endure.

What is an interesting difference is original customer location for the three rifles. @Wahoo's was sold to a Finn, both of mine were built for Americans. It is likely to indicate that the barrels were regulated for radically different factory ammunitions to one another. We have tested each other's regulating ammo and did not have equal results.

What is my point in light of that context? Both of my rifles wanted to regulate at lower velocities than his using hand loads.

The Original Kynoch/ICI load data for 470NE set the standard of performance in 1921. It said it was "2150fps" but there are two factors to understand. 1.) They blatently lied by about 50fps, the originals NEVER achieved 2150. 2.) The original test barrels were 28" and used cordite. When you reduce that barrel length to a 24" to 26" barrel, you typically lose 70-100fps. The most common regulating velocity in vintage double rifles of 470NE is between 2030fps and 2080fps using powders similar to the pressure curves of the now extinct cordite loads.

A lot of readers struggle to regulate double rifles because they start near 2150fps and keep pushing up from there, never regulating, but entering very dangerous grounds, particularly for vintage doubles.

Suggestions: 1.) Find the very best bullet you can for your rifle, ideally a cup and core FMJ solid or a traditional soft of excellent construction such as A-frame, North Fork, or Woodleigh Weldcore. 2.) Focus on the proven powders (with wads/dacron) that achieve 2000fps with the fewest grains, reducing painful recoil. (e.g. IMR3031, RL15, VVN133, etc.) 3.) Do not push the velocity, you're chasing a dangerous fiction. 4.) Don't mess with bore riding, copper, banded bullets until you have a baseline of a known-good traditional soft and solid. You need a baseline before you play with experimental tech in the world of double rifles. 5.) Try to avoid monometal solids, they are nearly 30% larger by volume than lead core solids, so there are a number of regulating problems that can occur, especially if you don't have a known-good traditional load to use as a baseline.

 

[rookhawk]

Postscript @deewayne2003 Just pointing out that 78gr of IMR3031 and 1.5gr of dacron is a max load that may be suitable for modern rifles, but may be too much for vintage rifles. Ken Owen's recipe starts at 75gr and works up. My current Heym regulated at 75gr, my prior Heym regulated at 76.5gr and 77gr depending on soft/solid. (traditional FMJs being loaded half to one grain less)

 

[deewayne2003]

Postscript @deewayne2003 Just pointing out that 78gr of IMR3031 and 1.5gr of dacron is a max load that may be suitable for modern rifles, but may be too much for vintage rifles. Ken Owen's recipe starts at 75gr and works up. My current Heym regulated at 75gr, my prior Heym regulated at 76.5gr and 77gr depending on soft/solid. (traditional FMJs being loaded half to one grain less)

Agreed, the load that Ken regulated my rifle with was 78gr IMR3031 & 2.0gr Dacron, I switched to foam wads for ease of loading and lower pressure.

I’ve seen people post up to 80gr of 3031 and foam wad but that seems high.

 

[Hagler.450Ex]

I always used dacron in all my doubles, even .600. But the .450 no.2 swallowed the most of it, which was a lot. I liked how it came out on the ground in front of you, and I never had the fear of a ringed barrel. That was always my main fear with a solid or foam wad. Always used RL-15 with the 1.19 conversion from cordite. Most of the time, I would just leave it at that. In fact, I never really did much of anything else at all. Of course, you can start lower and work up to perfect regulation, but nobody was ever doing those experiments back in the day, they were grabbing them out of the Kynoch box/tin and using as they were. I never had any accuracy issues with the 1.19 conversion. It was, in fact, great in my book, as far as actual use, and sometimes 'more' than surprisingly accurate. I never used 3031, as I had a fear of it acting erratic. I guess I always tried to keep things as simple as I could. Easing up to perfect regulation felt like 'more pain and not enough gain' to be worth the trouble. But that's just me. If a rifle said '80 Max Cordite' or similar on the barrels, that's what it was meant and regulated for, without experimentation, was my philosophy. Tropical loads dropped what? 5 grains? I can't remember. Bear in mind, it's been near 30 years since I shouldered a double, and now I'd have to look at my books. But the dacron and 1.19 was my go-to.

 

[Hagler.450Ex]

@Wahoo has a modern Heym in 470NE. I have had two 470NEs that were contemporary with his within 300 serial numbers +/- on both sides. So all have equal metallurgy and tolerance for "hot loads" that a vintage double rifle cannot endure.

What is an interesting difference is original customer location for the three rifles. @Wahoo's was sold to a Finn, both of mine were built for Americans. It is likely to indicate that the barrels were regulated for radically different factory ammunitions to one another. We have tested each other's regulating ammo and did not have equal results.

What is my point in light of that context? Both of my rifles wanted to regulate at lower velocities than his using hand loads.

The Original Kynoch/ICI load data for 470NE set the standard of performance in 1921. It said it was "2150fps" but there are two factors to understand. 1.) They blatently lied by about 50fps, the originals NEVER achieved 2150. 2.) The original test barrels were 28" and used cordite. When you reduce that barrel length to a 24" to 26" barrel, you typically lose 70-100fps. The most common regulating velocity in vintage double rifles of 470NE is between 2030fps and 2080fps using powders similar to the pressure curves of the now extinct cordite loads.

A lot of readers struggle to regulate double rifles because they start near 2150fps and keep pushing up from there, never regulating, but entering very dangerous grounds, particularly for vintage doubles.

Suggestions: 1.) Find the very best bullet you can for your rifle, ideally a cup and core FMJ solid or a traditional soft of excellent construction such as A-frame, North Fork, or Woodleigh Weldcore. 2.) Focus on the proven powders (with wads/dacron) that achieve 2000fps with the fewest grains, reducing painful recoil. (e.g. IMR3031, RL15, VVN133, etc.) 3.) Do not push the velocity, you're chasing a dangerous fiction. 4.) Don't mess with bore riding, copper, banded bullets until you have a baseline of a known-good traditional soft and solid. You need a baseline before you play with experimental tech in the world of double rifles. 5.) Try to avoid monometal solids, they are nearly 30% larger by volume than lead core solids, so there are a number of regulating problems that can occur, especially if you don't have a known-good traditional load to use as a baseline.

This is exactly one of the reasons I never cared about the velocity. Because of the 2150 fps lie which is a good example. None do that with a 24" barrel, much less a tropical load. I never even owned a chronograph. If it says 80-Cordite for example, for the barrels and shell, use it. Whatever velocity it ends up being, is your velocity. Try speeding it up and watch your bullets start crossing the other way. With doubles, it's pointless to try deviating. Your load is written in stone.

 

[Rare Breed]

Agreed, the load that Ken regulated my rifle with was 78gr IMR3031 & 2.0gr Dacron, I switched to foam wads for ease of loading and lower pressure.

I’ve seen people post up to 80gr of 3031 and foam wad but that seems high.

Interesting...my Rigby in 470 regulated with 84 grains of RL 15.5 and was fine under pressure. It was a modern model not vintage.

 

[rookhawk]

I just spoke with a barrel regulator today. He’s using a few of my rifles as guinea pigs as we speak. They have known good loads in 3031 and 4350 at present. His concern is lack of availability in the future of 3031 and RL15, so he is experimenting with Vihta Vuori Powders so he has alternative load data in the event of powder obsolescence. I believe he’s looking at VV130 or VV133 as a future alternative if the pressure curves are close to the originals and at moderate velocities with good regulation.

 

[wildwilderness]

This is exactly one of the reasons I never cared about the velocity. Because of the 2150 fps lie which is a good example. None do that with a 24" barrel, much less a tropical load. I never even owned a chronograph. If it says 80-Cordite for example, for the barrels and shell, use it. Whatever velocity it ends up being, is your velocity. Try speeding it up and watch your bullets start crossing the other way. With doubles, it's pointless to try deviating. Your load is written in stone.

So do you think there is such a thing as “too slow”? 2 questions-

I’m just wondering if the published min velocity on a Barnes 500 gr solid at 1850 fps is tooo slow to shoot an Actual elephant at 50 yards in the heart/lungs?


Would you rather a .375 cal 300 gr solid at 2500 fps instead of the .474 cal 500gr solid at 1850?

 

[rookhawk]

Taylor once said, paraphrasing “any bullet over 400 grains and 40 caliber that hits an animal at 1900fps will kill any dangerous game”

I would not shoot a Barnes 500gr at 1850fps, you’re teasing fairly close to Black Powder Express velocity and energy.

I would expect 2035-2080fps typically.

But why are you shoehorning a Barnes solid into a double anyway? Did you find woodleigh or hornady traditional lead core solids wanting? I did not.

You cannot expect to get regulation at the same speed and pressure with a monometal solid as you would from a traditional solid.

 

[Hagler.450Ex]

So do you think there is such a thing as “too slow”? 2 questions-

I’m just wondering if the published min velocity on a Barnes 500 gr solid at 1850 fps is tooo slow to shoot an Actual elephant at 50 yards in the heart/lungs?


Would you rather a .375 cal 300 gr solid at 2500 fps instead of the .474 cal 500gr solid at 1850?

That IS slow. I've never used Barnes solids, as they are all brass. This velocity is certainly due to the room they take up in the case, increasing pressure, so they had to limit the pressure, in turn limiting the velocity. I wouldn't personally use that bullet at that speed. You need something at 1950fps at least, to be comfortable. Not that the 1850fps would not work on a heart/lung, but I've never heard of anything that slow in a nitro double except a .600/100C that was specifically regulated for it. I'd scrounge for some Woodleighs at least, then you could get to 1950fps minimum. I'd rather use the .375 with the correct steel jacketed solid if choosing between the two. No, I wouldn't use a .470 at 1850fps. Not that it would not do the job, a .30/06 could do the job if were legal, but I don't see how your rifle would regulate at that velocity, it's 100fps below even a tropical load for the .470, and the two barrels would probably have a spread of up to 4", maybe even 6" on the extreme.

 

[MacJenkins]

The few 470’s I loaded for liked to run in the 2100-2200 range with a woodleigh 500 soft or a 460/500 CEB. I start with RL15 on most all doubles and go from there. If I get close to that 2150 and they are still shooting apart I go to a slightly slower powder to get more dwell time in the barrel. I’ve had guns that like Varget, RL17, N150 etc.

 

[SStomcat]

Agreed, the load that Ken regulated my rifle with was 78gr IMR3031 & 2.0gr Dacron, I switched to foam wads for ease of loading and lower pressure.

I’ve seen people post up to 80gr of 3031 and foam wad but that seems high.

Ken once evaluated a Lang 470 ne for me that I was eyeing. It was a true vintage production. Ken regulated it right around 78.2 grains of 3031 with 2 grns of dacron.

Below is the mail from Geoff, just a FYI..

We have some data for Reloder 15 and VihtuavoriN160;

470 Nitro 500 gr SN or FMJ, Federal 215 primer;



Reloder 15 87 gr 2040 with foam rubber wad

N160 103 gr 2020 fps

Hope this helps.



Regards,

Geoff McDonald