Market for .450/.400 double?

[Rare Breed]

Greetings all,

I'm in the market for a SxS double in .450/.400. Right now I'm keeping an eye on a new Merkel Model 140-2 listed on Guns International for $11,995, but before I pull the trigger(s) I was hoping to get a sense of the market for similar rifles at or below that price.

I've not had any luck finding anything comparable in .450/.400.

For reference, on Gunbroker I see at the moment:
-Merkel .470 (extractors) at $7000 opening bid, and an engraved version opening at $9100,
-Searcy .470 at $7500
-new Sabatti Classic in .450 for $6100 BIN
-Westley Richards (!) in .450 starting at $9995
-new Sabatti Big Five EDL in .470 at $7134 BIN
-used Sabatti in .470 starting at $4500
-Searcy .500 at $10,500
-a number of .500 NE Blasers in the $9k range

(I note here that I would be disinclined toward Searcy because of my research at AH.)

I e-mailed IFG regarding the timeline for the arrival of a new batch of Sabatti doubles. They very promptly responded, saying, in effect, "We have no idea."

So, can anyone here tell me whether it's realistic to expect that a quality sub-$12,ooo double in .450/.400 will appear anytime soon? My search thus far would suggest that they're not particularly common in the marketplace, leading me to think that I'm less likely to find them for the prices I'm seeing for the more popular calibers.

I'm not in a huge hurry and have some modicum of patience (hard won!) when it comes to buying a gun, but if it's likely futile to wait I'll start scouring the accounts trying to scrounge up enough for the new Merkel.

Best Regards.

A new 450-400 3 inch DR below $12k I wish you luck my friend. I bought my Chapuis 450-400 3 inch from George and paid $12,500 inclusive of special RMR bracket for my Trijicon. This gun now goes for $13500 with all I bought in just 12 months time

 

[Rare Breed]

A new 450-400 3 inch DR below $12k I wish you luck my friend. I bought my Chapuis 450-400 3 inch from George and paid $12,500 inclusive of special RMR bracket for my Trijicon. This gun now goes for $13500 with all I bought in just 12 months time

That is at JJ Perodeau where George works. You can’t go wrong buying from them

 

[Rare Breed]

@Max Simmons a 450/400 3" is a GREAT cartridge. It's also the MOST DESIRABLE double rifle at present as its plenty for buffalo and cats and people aren't thinking much of the extra-oomph for Rhino and Elephant in the current political climate.

Bottom line, you're going to pay a BIG premium for a 450/400. I'd rather suggest that you get a MUCH NICER gun in 470NE or 500NE for the same money.

I betcha a 470NE Heym will come around for $12,000 cash in hand and that would be way better than a Searcy (would never, ever own one...see the thread where Searcy refuses to warranty a super-defective gun of his that he screwed up) or a Sabatti, or even a Merkel.

For $12k you can get a dandy used 470NE Watson Bros, George Gibbs, or Heym if you are patient. The same maker's guns in 450/400 would be $18,000.

Suffer with getting a caliber you don't want and get a much better quality gun, or buy the caliber you really want but overpay and thus you can afford inferior examples.

Tricky decisions.

+1 on Rookhawk. The question is can you handle the 470 recoil. I am 6:2 225 pounds and even with proper technique was too much gun for me to enjoy shooting it

 

[rookhawk]

Everywhere I go, everyone I speak to, they all explain the price increases on luxury goods with the same angle.

PPE money everywhere.

Which explains too many dollars chasing too few goods. That’s about to change Of course, but right now double rifles are selling fast for big, big money.

 

[Tanks]

+1 on Rookhawk. The question is can you handle the 470 recoil. I am 6:2 225 pounds and even with proper technique was too much gun for me to enjoy shooting it

I don't know the .470 recoil but I enjoy shooting my .500 NE and I am 6' and as of this morning just a tad under 190 (trying to get to 185 by July 20th).

 

[Max Simmons]

I'm embarrassed that I never posted an update here. Apologies to all, especially those who were so generous with their detailed advice.

I decided to go the safest route and bought a brand new Chapuis in .450/400 from J.J. himself. Wonderful to deal with, and he got the LOP right on the money based in my dress shirt measurement!

Thank you again to everyone.

 

[Kevin Peacocke]

Congratulations Max! Please can you post some pictures? Are you opting for a red dot?

 

[Kevin Peacocke]

What is the weight of your Chapuis Max? I fitted a broad padded leather sling from Els, and carrying my Heym safari is a cinch, can carry it all day.

 

[Kevin Peacocke]

I've occasionally thought about a nice double; sourcing a "pre-owned" good'un here Downunder can be an issue... We have some excellent gunsmiths whom I would trust in helping my search; an ideal approach in have one assessed. The alternative is, of course, buying new; waiting time would be understandable. Thanks all, for an excellent thread, and priceless advice .

Just take the plunge on a new one Geoff. Having done so myself the long wait is soon forgotten when the beauty arrives. I am a one-gun type of person, so I got the 450/400 being the best compromise between power and carry. I will now put a red dot on it, and in time when they become available with a sporting type mount a tiny red dot multiplier scope, like the Burris 3x.

 

[RTG]

+1 on Rookhawk. The question is can you handle the 470 recoil. I am 6:2 225 pounds and even with proper technique was too much gun for me to enjoy shooting it

For me it is less about a fixed size and more about recent training and uncontrollable mental reflexes. I am the same size as you but none of us are the same mentally.

When I used to shoot a ton, two to three times a week with a variety of weapons, recoil from a 11 pound 458 Lott did not bother me. Now that thing is just a flinch maker. It’s a mental flinch. At this stage in my life I still want to punish my body but my subconscious says screw that. It wants to protect me from that 458 recoil. It no longer likes me shooting 454 Casual or 500sw either.

I’m confident I can overcome this with increased training but I don’t have time for that currently. No problems with 375HH or 44 Mag, so focused more on them.

 

[Max Simmons]

Congratulations Max! Please can you post some pictures? Are you opting for a red dot?

Thus far I haven't had much trouble hitting gallon jugs at 50 yards with the irons, but the jugs aren't trying to kill me. Realistically I need to admit to myself that a red dot is the wiser course for my eyes when the hooves are coming for my liver.

 

[Max Simmons]

What is the weight of your Chapuis Max? I fitted a broad padded leather sling from Els, and carrying my Heym safari is a cinch, can carry it all day.

I haven't weighed it, but specs say 9 lbs, 7 oz. Thanks for the tip on the sling!

 

[VertigoBE]

Thus far I haven't had much trouble hitting gallon jugs at 50 yards with the irons, but the jugs aren't trying to kill me. Realistically I need to admit to myself that a red dot is the wiser course for my eyes when the hooves are coming for my liver.

Absolutely gorgeous! Congrats on a beautiful double!

 

[ET1775]

Now that is beautiful! How is the recoil?

 

[Rare Breed]

And many thanks to you Joe for the excellent advice. And I think more than a little influence in getting J.J. fired up about the project. The way that deal ended up was the gun did indeed have several small issues. All of which J.J. was able to address and fix including machining a new plunger for the safety. I think the gun suffered only from what all too many doubles suffer from.. Siting in a closet or gun safe un-loved for many years. The Seller may have been a little apprehensive at first to send the gun off without payment. But he did his due diligence and through professional and fair arrangements on all sides, he sent the gun to J.J. who did the work and the seller happily paid him for repairs. I paid J.J. for services such as confirming regulation/cost of ammo and shipping. J.J. was very fair in what he charged. Plus J.J. served as a non financial intermediary. He had physical possession of the gun when I wired the funds, thus giving me peace of mind I would get it. And he held the gun until the funds cleared into the sellers account so security for him the he had the money.

I enjoy getting a real deal and am probably inclined to take a calculated risk now and then such as mentioned might be the case buying at an auction, especially the small auction.

However I also understand and appreciate a true a bargain where everyone wins and I get a quality item at a fair price. Which is how I think this deal played out. It may have even been a real deal to me but there are so few of the guns such as mine out there on the market that it is difficult to ascertain a true market price at the day of sale... And the seller had that gun on the market a long time and got what he asked. In any case, I am very pleased with my purchase Now it just needs to taste some buffalo blood

I bought my DR from George and JJ and would not use anyone else. JJ is a gem

 

[Rare Breed]

An old post but so much valuable information here that it is worth bringing it to the fore in this time of heightened interest in doubles.
Certainly in Africa where we don't have a JJ or Champlins I would be very cautious of old or even second hand doubles unless you know them well in the previous hands. Even with the high final cost of the importation procedure I am advising all of my buddies to go new, and even then choose carefully. Heym has an excellent reputation currently, and I haven't heard anything bad about Krieghoff or Chapuis. A double rifle is such a special acqusition that cost should be more of a target to just reach rather than a justification for settling for less.

Wisdom!!!

 

[Rare Breed]

I don't know the .470 recoil but I enjoy shooting my .500 NE and I am 6' and as of this morning just a tad under 190 (trying to get to 185 by July 20th).

Tanks your video on how to handle recoil meaning let your body go with it was eye opening to me. Thanks!

 

[Aaron N]

@Tom Leoni That is the perfect double in my opinion. Amazing score!

 

[Tom Leoni]

@Aaron N - thank you! I bought my classic doubles respectively from George Caswell (P. Webley hammer .450 BPE) and J. J. Perodeau (this one). Like so many of you, there are very few other businesses from whom I'd buy a used double--and it would HAVE to come with load data and a target.

Re. Chapuis, the truly gorgeous rifle that @Max Simmons bought from J. J. is very similar to the new Iphisi--sans the engraving. The main differences are caliber (for now it only comes in .375 H&H to keep the price under $10K), a much less pronounced beavertail forend, and the mounting system--Talley for the Iphisi Vs. Recknagel for the traditional Brousse (Elan here in the US). Well done on this unique gun.

A word on Chapuis and the .450-400. The factory has temporarily suspended all doubles in this caliber because of lack of ammunition--specifically Hornady DGX, which is what they regulate with. We got an ammo export permit on the US end in case the ammo becomes available in good quantities again. Europe is completely dried up.

 

[Hunting Hitman]

Thus far I haven't had much trouble hitting gallon jugs at 50 yards with the irons, but the jugs aren't trying to kill me. Realistically I need to admit to myself that a red dot is the wiser course for my eyes when the hooves are coming for my liver.

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Exquisite double!

HH