Mark Sullivan the Expose’

[Fordy]

"It is not necessary to do this (wound game). Clients are more than capable of wounding them without me telling them to do so. If I offered one million dollars to a client to put his bullet into the shoulder of a buffalo I could go for many seasons and over a hundred buffalo before I would have to pay out."

Is he still working? If so, I am booking immediately. IF he will honor that 1 million dollar challenge.

Even though 1 million doesn’t buy what it did in 1994. My wife and I have never shot more than once at Buffalo. And zero rounds were fired by any PH at our Buffalo.
Not even an insurance shot was needed. All, deader than a buzzards dinner when we walked up. Archery or Rife.

Granted the sample size is only 4 Buffalo. But I wouldn’t shoot if it’s not a dead bull. I would even go with odds and lay my own money down. Against his challenge.

Is this a shoulder ?
View attachment 696032

Gday altitude sickness
Well
Reminds me of a song
& this should sort it out

Just trying to get some humour in this thread

Don’t know a lot of mark Sullivan so I’m keeping out of this although the whole thread has been quite interesting that’s for sure


Cheers

 

[275r7x57]

Interesting article in African Hunter from 1994. It largely consists of an interview of Mark Sullivan defending himself from his critics. It also contains the letter @rookhawk was good enough to publish. I actually watched much of the video of the South African CBL (nowhere declared) lion hunt to which he and his critics refer. From my perspective it is one of the most cringe worthy "hunting" productions I have ever seen - but that is just my personal view.

These are a couple of interesting statements and statistics from the article.

From Mark's perspective, he seemingly has an interesting and uniquely incompetent clientele. Wonder if this observation includes any of his loyalists here?

"It is not necessary to do this (wound game). Clients are more than capable of wounding them without me telling them to do so. If I offered one million dollars to a client to put his bullet into the shoulder of a buffalo I could go for many seasons and over a hundred buffalo before I would have to pay out."

At another point, the author notes that as of the articles date Mark had guided the taking of 46 buffalo and experienced eight charges. That is a rather remarkable 17%. Must be those clients.

Another of his comments.

“Do I like a one-shot, dead-in-your-tracks shot? Absolutely no. I hate it. The hunt is over before it ever begins. I have always said the hunt for Cape buffalo begins with the first drop of blood. Shooting an unwounded, feeding bull is not dangerous game. It is killing. Hunting is when you pick up the spoor immediately, without waiting for an hour for the buffalo to stiffen, and upon finding the bull, walk up and let him decide how he is to die.

There is a lot in the discussion I find more than problematic. The whole fear issue is one I find particularly troubling. He is not the first person I have encountered who seems caught up in proving their own bravado.

I would suggest simply reading his responses and drawing your own conclusions.

AHC#18 Mark Sullivan Part II | african-hunter

alqchemy.wixsite.com

I believe the article is from around 2013 or so, not 1994. It is written by former AH member Cal Pappas.

I as well would fully recommend reading the article in its entirety, not just half quotes.

 

[275r7x57]

Here is Part 1 by Cal Pappas.

AHC#10 Mark Sullivan Pt1 | african-hunter

alqchemy.wixsite.com

 

[VertigoBE]

I believe the article is from around 2013 or so, not 1994. It is written by former AH member Cal Pappas.

I as well would fully recommend reading the article in its entirety, not just half quotes.

thanks for having shared the link, I must admit, reading through the article, Cal Pappas seems much more nuanced in his appreciation (or not) of Mark Sullivan.

Also at the same convention I walked by a very well known Zimbabwean PH who was bad-mouthing Mark’s style of hunting - Mark had six videos on the market at the time - noting especially his disapproval of the charges of buffalo and hippo. I listened and when the PH noted my interest he called me closer, introduced himself, and asked me to watch his video of how buffalo hunting is done “correctly.” He played his video for those watching as well as myself. A client wounded a Cape buffalo and it ran off. After letting the buff “stiffen up” for about half an hour or a bit longer, the PH and client stepped into the back of the Land Cruiser. The bed of the ‘Cruiser was surrounded by a cage of one inch diameter tubing, spaced about eight inches apart, and to the approximate height of the men’s shoulders. Two of the staff - I presume the tracker and skinner - were in the cab and drove slowly into the bush following the spoor. When the buff was sighted he was killed with a few shots. The PH in the booth said, “Now that is how it’s done” and I departed with mixed emotions. What I knew was that Mark’s videos were thrilling to the core - no endless plains game shot at 300 yards or from a blind at a water hole. No spotlighting and night shooting or shooting from a vehicle. I remember thinking I would much rather track an animal (by now I had four hunts in Zimbabwe under my belt) than shoot it from the bed of a glorified pickup truck.

I must admit, not having seen the video's or ever met the man, and reading through this almost 20page thread, all the criticism comes from people who have never hunted or even met Mark Sullivan. While those that either know him or have hunted with him, seem to appreciate him. I seem to remember something from all the Blaser R8 thread's, where the "fanboys" would counter the misgivings of the "haters", pointing out their lack of experience with the platform and therefore uneducated opinion.

I remain of the opinion that while one person's behaviours are not necessarily your own, it does not mean that they are definitively wrong. This black-white, them/us thinking is immature for the lack of a better word. Live and let live. And if you don't like something, don't partake in it. No need to talk bad about it.

 

[WAB]

Interesting article in African Hunter from 1994. It largely consists of an interview of Mark Sullivan defending himself from his critics. It also contains the letter @rookhawk was good enough to publish. I actually watched much of the video of the South African CBL (nowhere declared) lion hunt to which he and his critics refer. From my perspective it is one of the most cringe worthy "hunting" productions I have ever seen - but that is just my personal view.

These are a couple of interesting statements and statistics from the article.

From Mark's perspective, he seemingly has an interesting and uniquely incompetent clientele. Wonder if this observation includes any of his loyalists here?

"It is not necessary to do this (wound game). Clients are more than capable of wounding them without me telling them to do so. If I offered one million dollars to a client to put his bullet into the shoulder of a buffalo I could go for many seasons and over a hundred buffalo before I would have to pay out."

At another point, the author notes that as of the articles date Mark had guided the taking of 46 buffalo and experienced eight charges. That is a rather remarkable 17%. Must be those clients.

Another of his comments.

“Do I like a one-shot, dead-in-your-tracks shot? Absolutely no. I hate it. The hunt is over before it ever begins. I have always said the hunt for Cape buffalo begins with the first drop of blood. Shooting an unwounded, feeding bull is not dangerous game. It is killing. Hunting is when you pick up the spoor immediately, without waiting for an hour for the buffalo to stiffen, and upon finding the bull, walk up and let him decide how he is to die.

There is a lot in the discussion I find more than problematic. The whole fear issue is one I find particularly troubling. He is not the first person I have encountered who seems caught up in proving their own bravado.

I would suggest simply reading his responses and drawing your own conclusions.

AHC#18 Mark Sullivan Part II | african-hunter

alqchemy.wixsite.com

this certainly aligns with the conversation I had with him. If some care to ‘hunt’ like this they can have at it. I will not.

 

[Hunter-Habib]

Mark has shot several elephant but faced only one charge (which he is honest enough to admit). At least one elephant hunt appeared on one of his DVDs although I’ll need to recheck in order to see which one. To put matters into perspective for those who’ve never hunted in Tanzania… elephant hunts there aren’t easy on one’s pocket. Out of all of Mark’s clients, people have hunted elephant with him the least in Tanzania (relatively speaking). And he’s quick to admit that.

Out of the six charging hippopotamus that Mark has shot on video, not a single one was wounded.

Out of the nine charging Cape buffalo which Mark has shot on video, he only stops the charge himself on three of those nine (one where the client is crippled and can’t do the follow up himself, one where the client runs out of ammunition & one where the client shoots first but misses). I don’t know about other people. But under those circumstances, I’d be damned pleased if my white hunter stepped in. On other times, he & the client both shoot together. So there’s no possible way that he “Shoots The Client’s Buffalo”.

People seem to like dragging some of Mark’s statements into an overtly literal context. I find this hypocritical considering that a lot of us (myself included) are Donald Trump supporters. We’ve learnt that even if the good President’s way of saying things might often be a little … unconventional, he has a very well thought out manner of doing things. Mark is the same. His words can sometimes be a bit witty or sarcastic, but the bottom line is those who’ve actually hunted with him and/or know him in real life are quite fond of him. As I myself would eventually find out, this is not without reason.

I’ve been very patient & very civilized defending my friend on these forums for the last few weeks. Some of Mark’s critics have been at least fair enough to admit that some of their negative perceptions about him are a bit too harsh. Others might not like his personality. That’s fine too. No two personalities are totally compatible. But (not pointing any fingers) some people are far too blinded by their hate and petty vindictiveness towards an African white hunter who is actually doing pretty well for himself at the age of 76. Some people take issue with Mark comparing his hunts to “Battle”. Yet those same people have no issue hunting game with a telescopic sighted .375 Holland & Holland Magnum and then comparing it to “Dueling an mortal with a rapier.” Like, seriously ?! At least Mark gets close to his quarry before he shoots them. If anything, that’s closer to a duel than sniping them from the safety of a distance where the quarry doesn’t even know we are there (although I myself often hunt via this manner as well and see nothing morally wrong about it). Some people are comparing anybody defending Mark to “Cultists”. What does that make his accusers ? It makes them no different to the the perpetrators of the Salem Witch Trials.

To the neutral people reading this thread, I’ll point something out to you which you’ll eventually come to agree with me on. The people who are blindly hateful towards Mark Sullivan, are also the same elitists who:
1) Want to see long range rifle hunting & ballistic turrets banned (yet themselves have no issue hunting with telescopic sights)
2) Want a complete ban on Captive Bred Lion hunting without even remotely wanting to acknowledge that (if properly done) it can have some benefits
3) Take issue if certain calibers are used on certain game animals (regardless of how successful the hunter is).

One might wonder why these three things are being mentioned in this post. But it’s to paint a better picture of some of Mark’s haters. These people are not the friends of the hunting industry. They are elitists who think that any style of hunting which they themselves do not practice, is unethical. They are the kinds who get happy when there are more restrictions being placed on hunting. And more than one hundred Mark Sullivans, these elitists are the biggest threat to the hunting industry. My words might sound harsh, but they’re true.

 

[Wishfulthinker580]

View attachment 696080
Mark has shot several elephant but faced only one charge (which he is honest enough to admit). At least one elephant hunt appeared on one of his DVDs although I’ll need to recheck in order to see which one. To put matters into perspective for those who’ve never hunted in Tanzania… elephant hunts there aren’t easy on one’s pocket. Out of all of Mark’s clients, people have hunted elephant with him the least in Tanzania (relatively speaking). And he’s quick to admit that.

View attachment 696081
Out of the six charging hippopotamus that Mark has shot on video, not a single one was wounded.

Out of the nine charging Cape buffalo which Mark has shot on video, he only stops the charge himself on three of those nine (one where the client is crippled and can’t do the follow up himself, one where the client runs out of ammunition & one where the client shoots first but misses). I don’t know about other people. But under those circumstances, I’d be damned pleased if my white hunter stepped in. On other times, he & the client both shoot together. So there’s no possible way that he “Shoots The Client’s Buffalo”.

People seem to like dragging some of Mark’s statements into an overtly literal context. I find this hypocritical considering that a lot of us (myself included) are Donald Trump supporters. We’ve learnt that even if the good President’s way of saying things might often be a little … unconventional, he has a very well thought out manner of doing things. Mark is the same. His words can sometimes be a bit witty or sarcastic, but the bottom line is those who’ve actually hunted with him and/or know him in real life are quite fond of him. As I myself would eventually find out, this is not without reason.

I’ve been very patient & very civilized defending my friend on these forums for the last few weeks. Some of Mark’s critics have been at least fair enough to admit that some of their negative perceptions about him are a bit too harsh. Others might not like his personality. That’s fine too. No two personalities are totally compatible. But (not pointing any fingers) some people are far too blinded by their hate and petty vindictiveness towards an African white hunter who is actually doing pretty well for himself at the age of 76. Some people take issue with Mark comparing his hunts to “Battle”. Yet those same people have no issue hunting game with a telescopic sighted .375 Holland & Holland Magnum and then comparing it to “Dueling an mortal with a rapier.” Like, seriously ?! At least Mark gets close to his quarry before he shoots them. If anything, that’s closer to a duel than sniping them from the safety of a distance where the quarry doesn’t even know we are there (although I myself often hunt via this manner as well and see nothing morally wrong about it). Some people are comparing anybody defending Mark to “Cultists”. What does that make his accusers ? It makes them no different to the the perpetrators of the Salem Witch Trials.

To the neutral people reading this thread, I’ll point something out to you which you’ll eventually come to agree with me on. The people who are blindly hateful towards Mark Sullivan, are also the same elitists who:
1) Want to see long range rifle hunting & ballistic turrets banned (yet themselves have no issue hunting with telescopic sights)
2) Want a complete ban on Captive Bred Lion hunting without even remotely wanting to acknowledge that (if properly done) it can have some benefits
3) Take issue if certain calibers are used on certain game animals (regardless of how successful the hunter is).

One might wonder why these three things are being mentioned in this post. But it’s to paint a better picture of some of Mark’s haters. These people are not the friends of the hunting industry. They are elitists who think that any style of hunting which they themselves do not practice, is unethical. They are the kinds who get happy when there are more restrictions being placed on hunting. And more than one hundred Mark Sullivans, these elitists are the biggest threat to the hunting industry. My words might sound harsh, but they’re true.

His last three sentences in that second message look like he’s paying attention to this thread, or at least knows about it, and is an indirect marketing effort.

Also, those three things you listed paint a nice little picture of MS supporters.

 

[Hunter-Habib]

His last three sentences in that second message look like he’s paying attention to this thread, or at least knows about it, and is an indirect marketing effort.

Yes, he did. We showed it to him. But speaking up for him, is my choice and mine alone. He did the same for me when I was being attacked once. And I owe him that much.

And yes, we Mark Sullivan supporters have one thing in common. We’re totally okay with how other people hunt. We encourage (within reason). We don’t judge other hunters for hunting differently than us. We want more people hunting. Not less. And we also understand that nothing is blanket good or bad. Not long range hunting. Not captive bred lion hunting (which Mark disgusts, by the way). And not using certain calibers on certain game.

 

[Red Leg]

View attachment 696080
Mark has shot several elephant but faced only one charge (which he is honest enough to admit). At least one elephant hunt appeared on one of his DVDs although I’ll need to recheck in order to see which one. To put matters into perspective for those who’ve never hunted in Tanzania… elephant hunts there aren’t easy on one’s pocket. Out of all of Mark’s clients, people have hunted elephant with him the least in Tanzania (relatively speaking). And he’s quick to admit that.

View attachment 696081
Out of the six charging hippopotamus that Mark has shot on video, not a single one was wounded.

Out of the nine charging Cape buffalo which Mark has shot on video, he only stops the charge himself on three of those nine (one where the client is crippled and can’t do the follow up himself, one where the client runs out of ammunition & one where the client shoots first but misses). I don’t know about other people. But under those circumstances, I’d be damned pleased if my white hunter stepped in. On other times, he & the client both shoot together. So there’s no possible way that he “Shoots The Client’s Buffalo”.

People seem to like dragging some of Mark’s statements into an overtly literal context. I find this hypocritical considering that a lot of us (myself included) are Donald Trump supporters. We’ve learnt that even if the good President’s way of saying things might often be a little … unconventional, he has a very well thought out manner of doing things. Mark is the same. His words can sometimes be a bit witty or sarcastic, but the bottom line is those who’ve actually hunted with him and/or know him in real life are quite fond of him. As I myself would eventually find out, this is not without reason.

I’ve been very patient & very civilized defending my friend on these forums for the last few weeks. Some of Mark’s critics have been at least fair enough to admit that some of their negative perceptions about him are a bit too harsh. Others might not like his personality. That’s fine too. No two personalities are totally compatible. But (not pointing any fingers) some people are far too blinded by their hate and petty vindictiveness towards an African white hunter who is actually doing pretty well for himself at the age of 76. Some people take issue with Mark comparing his hunts to “Battle”. Yet those same people have no issue hunting game with a telescopic sighted .375 Holland & Holland Magnum and then comparing it to “Dueling an mortal with a rapier.” Like, seriously ?! At least Mark gets close to his quarry before he shoots them. If anything, that’s closer to a duel than sniping them from the safety of a distance where the quarry doesn’t even know we are there (although I myself often hunt via this manner as well and see nothing morally wrong about it). Some people are comparing anybody defending Mark to “Cultists”. What does that make his accusers ? It makes them no different to the the perpetrators of the Salem Witch Trials.

To the neutral people reading this thread, I’ll point something out to you which you’ll eventually come to agree with me on. The people who are blindly hateful towards Mark Sullivan, are also the same elitists who:
1) Want to see long range rifle hunting & ballistic turrets banned (yet themselves have no issue hunting with telescopic sights)
2) Want a complete ban on Captive Bred Lion hunting without even remotely wanting to acknowledge that (if properly done) it can have some benefits
3) Take issue if certain calibers are used on certain game animals (regardless of how successful the hunter is).

One might wonder why these three things are being mentioned in this post. But it’s to paint a better picture of some of Mark’s haters. These people are not the friends of the hunting industry. They are elitists who think that any style of hunting which they themselves do not practice, is unethical. They are the kinds who get happy when there are more restrictions being placed on hunting. And more than one hundred Mark Sullivans, these elitists are the biggest threat to the hunting industry. My words might sound harsh, but they’re true.

I simply posted a published interview. Your friend Mark is speaking for himself. Readers can draw whatever conclusions they wish from his own words.

I am the one who used the terms "rapier and broadsword." I never used the expression "dueling an mortal with a rapier," whatever you believe that is supposed to mean. Neither rapier nor broadsword had anything to do with dueling with a game animal. It was an analogy used to explain that two very different choices in weapons, let's say a .375 and .500, could be equally lethal. I stand by that analogy.

A number of people here, along with the two major hunting/conservation organizations to which I am a life member have condemned CBL shooting. I would suggest that is hardly an "elitist" position to take.

I do indeed find using game animals as long range targets reprehensible. I have absolutely nothing against ballistic turrets. I own several scopes so equipped. I have no idea how to control the practice. But I do strongly believe attempting to shoot animals at somewhere farther than 600 yards is no longer hunting.

I do take issue with the choice of some calibers for some game animals. Those are called opinions and they are based upon my experiences. We have recently had a robust discussion about adequate choice of bullet and chambering for Central European wild boar. I offered recommendations based upon a lot of hunting of those particular animals. Others, some of whom have never seen a European boar in its native habitat, had other recommendations. Who is practicing "elitism" in that discussion?

I seem to remember numerous postings by you offering recommendations of particular chamberings or loads.

Again, with respect to Mark Sullivan, I simply suggest that the forum read his own words - how he responded to the questions asked. If that fits your ideal of your future PH then great. I have absolutely no issue with that decision. I do find it interesting that an immediate reaction is to suggest we shouldn't believe what he says.

 

[Hunter-Habib]

I simply posted a published interview. Your friend Mark is speaking for himself. Readers can draw whatever conclusions they wish from his own words.

I am the one who used the terms "rapier and broadsword." I never used the expression "dueling an mortal with a rapier," whatever you believe that is supposed to mean. Neither rapier nor broadsword had anything to do with dueling with a game animal. It was an analogy used to explain that two very different choices in weapons, let's say a .375 and .500, could be equally lethal. I stand by that analogy.

A number of people here, along with the two major hunting/conservation organizations to which I am a life member have condemned CBL shooting. I would suggest that is hardly an "elitist" position to take.

I do indeed find using game animals as long range targets reprehensible. I have absolutely nothing against ballistic turrets. I own several scopes so equipped. I have no idea how to control the practice. But I do strongly believe attempting to shoot animals at somewhere farther than 600 yards is no longer hunting.

I do take issue with the choice of some calibers for some game animals. Those are called opinions and they are based upon my experiences. We have recently had a robust discussion about adequate choice of bullet and chambering for Central European wild boar. I offered recommendations based upon a lot of hunting of those particular animals. Others, some of whom have never seen a European boar in its native habitat, had other recommendations. Who is practicing "elitism" in that discussion?

I seem to remember numerous postings by you offering recommendations of particular chamberings or loads.

Again, with respect to Mark Sullivan, I simply suggest that the forum read his own words - how he responded to the questions asked. If that fits your ideal of your future PH then great. I have absolutely no issue with that decision. I do find it interesting that an immediate reaction is to suggest we shouldn't believe what he says.

1. Heres’s where you compared hunting with a .375 bore to dueling a mortal with a rapier.
Post in thread 'Of Rat Calibers, Elephant and Buffalo, In Witness Protection'
https://www.africahunting.com/threa...ffalo-in-witness-protection.70909/post-961105
I take zero issue with your statements (I’ve been doing most of my hunting in Africa with a .375 bore as well). But a person making a statement like this, has (in my opinion) no sound reason to take Mark’s words of “Battling Cape buffalo” as offensive. Similar (or even more extreme) words have been used by authors all throughout history in order to describe their hunts.

2.You posted an interview of Mark’s words. I posted statistics of Mark’s actual hunts. A couple of weeks back, you quoted one of my replies and uploaded a video from “Africa’s Black Death” which many of you have (for years) been claiming is an example of Mark wounding Cape buffalo just to get it to charge. Closer examination of that video will show anybody that there’s no possible way he could have known that Cape buffalo would have charged when he started shooting it (and he only did so because his one armed diabetic client didn’t have the physical wherewithal to do the follow up job himself). Regardless of whatever Mark said, his actual numbers of wounded charging buffalo shot only by himself… are impressively low (three in a 35 year career, which is hardly enough for anybody to accuse him of “Shooting his client’s quarry”). And yes, when Mark posted that interview (in 1994), he had enacted a very unsound policy- Clients who booked hunts with him, could only use double rifles. Unreasonable, yes. But nobody was ever forced to hunt with him, ever after reading these conditions. They did it out of their own free will. And he himself came to his senses by 2004 and removed this clause. Being the experienced sportsman that you are, you will know that a good percentage of client hunters who bring double rifles on their first safaris… invariably tend to shoot poorly. In Mark’s 1994 interview, he highlighted this. And by 2004, he flat out changed his policy upon taking advice from Tony Sanchez Arino.

3. I don’t like Captive Bred Lion hunting either. I did it once in my life and resolved never to personally do so again (I’ve been mentioning this repeatedly for the last four years on these forums). But I also want my future generations of sportsmen to be able to hunt lion. Given the prices of wild lion hunts, many of these people have no choice but to go for CBL hunting. In a perfect world, this shouldn’t be the case. But then, so shouldn’t a lot of things. And it’s not like banning CBL will make the antis leave us alone. The whole “Cecil The Lion” fiasco involved a wild lion. And all CBL lion hunting is not the same.
As @Mark A Ouellette and @Rare Breed have proven, CBL hunting (if done properly) isn’t anywhere as bleak as the picture which some of it’s indiscriminate critics will paint. It’s still not my cup of tea, but if younger generations get a cheaper alternative to hunt lion… then, I’ll happily turn the other way as long as: a) They accept that this can never be the same as wild lion b) Certain conditions of the hunt are met (like not shooting the thing inside an enclosure barely the size of a tennis court a couple of days after releasing it).

4. You may not like long range hunting. In that case, my definition of “Long Range” is even more stringent than yours. I personally don’t do over one hundred yards for dangerous game and three hundred yards for plains game. But other people have a right to hunt the way that they want. If they find satisfaction in long range shooting, then I’m totally okay with it. We’re both old men and accept it or not, (unless science somehow advances enough to stop aging) the harsh truth is that hunting isn’t just about you or me or any single person in particular. It’s about many different kinds & generations of people passionately pursuing quarry in a manner which they are enthusiastic about (within reason). And long range hunting is gaining traction in some places. If somebody wants to snipe an antelope from a mile away, then (while I wouldn’t personally ever do such a thing) as long as they dropped it cleanly… I’m totally okay with that. Regarding the comment about ballistic turrets, I genuinely didn’t have you in mind when I said that one.

5. I genuinely didn’t mean you when I brought up the point about certain calibers being used on certain game animals. I actually wholeheartedly agree with your assessments made in regards to this topic. My comment was made with a thread about elk hunting in mind.

Finally, I’m genuinely sad that our differing opinions on Mark have brought us into an argument with each other. You’ve actually been very civil & helpful to me in the past (and solved a great problem for me before my 2023 Tanzanian safari). And that, I can never forget and will always be in your debt. But Mark stood up for me in the past, and If I find any accusations against him to be disagreeable… then, I’m going to speak up for him.

And I’ll conclude with one more thing. I don’t care about most of the online correspondents who my comments might offend (although I definitely don’t go out of my way to offend anybody either). But I’m genuinely sorry that our conflict of ideologies regarding a few topics brought out these unpleasant exchanges between me & you.

I feel very sad when I see hunters condemning hunters, Red Leg. It was this sort of in-fighting which led to severe restrictions on hunting & firearms ownership in our part of the world (and it happened while I was growing up before my very eyes). That’s why I pursued the career I did, so that I could reverse some of these restrictions. But by the time I was finally in a position to do something about all this, the damage was already done and it was far too late. I want to see more young people hunting without facing condemnation from their own kind. And yes, it’s not right to compare the West (first world countries) with us (third world countries). But the principle is still the same. In-fighting will destroy us & what we love so much. Maybe it won’t happen in your part of the world as quickly as it did in ours. But unless the in-fighting stops, it will happen. We must learn to tolerate other forms of hunting even if we personally don’t hunt that way. It’s the only way ahead.

 

[Red Leg]

1. Heres’s where you compared hunting with a .375 bore to dueling a mortal with a rapier.
Post in thread 'Of Rat Calibers, Elephant and Buffalo, In Witness Protection'
https://www.africahunting.com/threa...ffalo-in-witness-protection.70909/post-961105
I take zero issue with your statements (I’ve been doing most of my hunting in Africa with a .375 bore as well). But a person making a statement like this, has (in my opinion) no sound reason to take Mark’s words of “Battling Cape buffalo” as offensive. Similar (or even more extreme) words have been used by authors all throughout history in order to describe their hunts.

2.You posted an interview of Mark’s words. I posted statistics of Mark’s actual hunts. A couple of weeks back, you quoted one of my replies and uploaded a video from “Africa’s Black Death” which many of you have (for years) been claiming is an example of Mark wounding Cape buffalo just to get it to charge. Closer examination of that video will show anybody that there’s no possible way he could have known that Cape buffalo would have charged when he started shooting it (and he only did so because his one armed diabetic client didn’t have the physical wherewithal to do the follow up job himself). Regardless of whatever Mark said, his actual numbers of wounded charging buffalo shot only by himself… are impressively low (three in a 35 year career, which is hardly enough for anybody to accuse him of “Shooting his client’s quarry”). And yes, when Mark posted that interview (in 1994), he had enacted a very unsound policy- Clients who booked hunts with him, could only use double rifles. Unreasonable, yes. But nobody was ever forced to hunt with him, ever after reading these conditions. They did it out of their own free will. And he himself came to his senses by 2004 and removed this clause. Being the experienced sportsman that you are, you will know that a good percentage of client hunters who bring double rifles on their first safaris… invariably tend to shoot poorly. In Mark’s 1994 interview, he highlighted this. And by 2004, he flat out changed his policy upon taking advice from Tony Sanchez Arino.

3. I don’t like Captive Bred Lion hunting either. I did it once in my life and resolved never to personally do so again (I’ve been mentioning this repeatedly for the last four years on these forums). But I also want my future generations of sportsmen to be able to hunt lion. Given the prices of wild lion hunts, many of these people have no choice but to go for CBL hunting. In a perfect world, this shouldn’t be the case. But then, so shouldn’t a lot of things. And it’s not like banning CBL will make the antis leave us alone. The whole “Cecil The Lion” fiasco involved a wild lion. And all CBL lion hunting is not the same.
As @Mark A Ouellette and @Rare Breed have proven, CBL hunting (if done properly) isn’t anywhere as bleak as the picture which some of it’s indiscriminate critics will paint. It’s still not my cup of tea, but if younger generations get a cheaper alternative to hunt lion… then, I’ll happily turn the other way as long as: a) They accept that this can never be the same as wild lion b) Certain conditions of the hunt are met (like not shooting the thing inside an enclosure barely the size of a tennis court a couple of days after releasing it).

4. You may not like long range hunting. In that case, my definition of “Long Range” is even more stringent than yours. I personally don’t do over one hundred yards for dangerous game and three hundred yards for plains game. But other people have a right to hunt the way that they want. If they find satisfaction in long range shooting, then I’m totally okay with it. We’re both old men and accept it or not, (unless science somehow advances enough to stop aging) the harsh truth is that hunting isn’t just about you or me or any single person in particular. It’s about many different kinds & generations of people passionately pursuing quarry in a manner which they are enthusiastic about (within reason). And long range hunting is gaining traction in some places. If somebody wants to snipe an antelope from a mile away, then (while I wouldn’t personally ever do such a thing) as long as they dropped it cleanly… I’m totally okay with that. Regarding the comment about ballistic turrets, I genuinely didn’t have you in mind when I said that one.

5. I genuinely didn’t mean you when I brought up the point about certain calibers being used on certain game animals. I actually wholeheartedly agree with your assessments made in regards to this topic. My comment was made with a thread about elk hunting in mind.

Finally, I’m genuinely sad that our differing opinions on Mark have brought us into an argument with each other. You’ve actually been very civil & helpful to me in the past (and solved a great problem for me before my 2023 Tanzanian safari). And that, I can never forget and will always be in your debt. But Mark stood up for me in the past, and If I find any accusations against him to be disagreeable… then, I’m going to speak up for him.

And I’ll conclude with one more thing. I don’t care about most of the online correspondents who my comments might offend (although I definitely don’t go out of my way to offend anybody either). But I’m genuinely sorry that our conflict of ideologies regarding a few topics brought out these unpleasant exchanges between me & you.

I feel very sad when I see hunters condemning hunters, Red Leg. It was this sort of in-fighting which led to severe restrictions on hunting & firearms ownership in our part of the world (and it happened while I was growing up before my very eyes). That’s why I pursued the career I did, so that I could reverse some of these restrictions. But by the time I was finally in a position to do something about all this, the damage was already done and it was far too late. I want to see more young people hunting without facing condemnation from their own kind. And yes, it’s not right to compare the West (first world countries) with us (third world countries). But the principle is still the same. In-fighting will destroy us & what we love so much. Maybe it won’t happen in your part of the world as quickly as it did in ours. But unless the in-fighting stops, it will happen. We must learn to tolerate other forms of hunting even if we personally don’t hunt that way. It’s the only way ahead.

My reference to dueling was referring to above analogy and the pleasure in finding someone who knew what a rapier was and the appropriateness of that comparison. I was clearly mistaken in that assumption. I absolutely do not believe hunting a buffalo is mortal combat or a duel. Like you, I have actually seen combat. It is why I despise the whole bravado around describing any hunt as going into battle.

I have simply posted Mark’s interview. I would think this, like his letter to SCI, would help clarify his approach to hunting. It instead seems to disturb some his supporters.

 

[Hunter-Habib]

My reference to dueling was referring to above analogy and the pleasure in finding someone who knew what a rapier was and the appropriateness of that comparison. I was clearly mistaken in that assumption. I absolutely do not believe hunting a buffalo is mortal combat or a duel. Like you, I have actually seen combat. It is why I despise the whole bravado around describing any hunt as going into battle.

I have simply posted Mark’s interview. I would think this, like his letter to SCI, would help clarify his approach to hunting. It instead seems to disturb some his supporters.

Yes, you're 100% right about hunting being nothing like battle or combat. But Mark alone isn't guilty of using words like this. At least once in their writings, the following authors have used words like "Battle, duel, foe, opponent, adversary, enemy, gladiatorial combat, showdown" to describe their hunts- Gordon Cumming, Sir Samuel Baker, Frederick Sealous, George Sanderson, Chauncey Hugh Stigand, Arthur H. Neumann, James Sutherland, John Kingsley Heath, Andrew Holmberg, Robert Ruark, Charles Askins, Elmer Keith, Jack O Connor, Harry Manners, Wally Johnson, Donald Anderson, Jack Lott, John Patterson, Lionell Palmer.

 

[grand veneur]

Yes, you're 100% right about hunting being nothing like battle or combat. But Mark alone isn't guilty of using words like this. At least once in their writings, the following authors have used words like "Battle, duel, foe, opponent, adversary, enemy, gladiatorial combat, showdown" to describe their hunts- Gordon Cumming, Sir Samuel Baker, Frederick Sealous, George Sanderson, Chauncey Hugh Stigand, Arthur H. Neumann, James Sutherland, John Kingsley Heath, Andrew Holmberg, Robert Ruark, Charles Askins, Elmer Keith, Jack O Connor, Harry Manners, Wally Johnson, Donald Anderson, Jack Lott, John Patterson, Lionell Palmer.

It's good that you pointed that out. We mainly read the novels of all these authors, where everything is often presented in a somewhat embellished way. If we could see videos of their exploits, we might also be disappointed sometimes.

 

[PARA45]

And this is why we are losing the battle against the Antis; they stand together and fight against us, while we fight each other. We can't seem to come together (we all have our own opinions), and that is going to be our downfall.

 

[375Fox]

To the neutral people reading this thread, I’ll point something out to you which you’ll eventually come to agree with me on. The people who are blindly hateful towards Mark Sullivan, are also the same elitists who:
1) Want to see long range rifle hunting & ballistic turrets banned (yet themselves have no issue hunting with telescopic sights)
2) Want a complete ban on Captive Bred Lion hunting without even remotely wanting to acknowledge that (if properly done) it can have some benefits
3) Take issue if certain calibers are used on certain game animals (regardless of how successful the hunter is).

One might wonder why these three things are being mentioned in this post. But it’s to paint a better picture of some of Mark’s haters. These people are not the friends of the hunting industry. They are elitists who think that any style of hunting which they themselves do not practice, is unethical. They are the kinds who get happy when there are more restrictions being placed on hunting. And more than one hundred Mark Sullivans, these elitists are the biggest threat to the hunting industry. My words might sound harsh, but they’re true.

You are trying to simplify complex issues and lump it into hunting rights.

1. Long range hunting and ballistic turrets are a newer development. If someone can shoot across a canyon overtop hunters trying to get closer. It impacts others hunting experience. That and increased wounding rates are worth a discussion.
2. I do want a ban on CBL. It’s a scourge on the hunting industry and is condemned by every major hunting organization outside South Africa. Hunters supporting a put and take commercial farming practice due to price is a dangerous slope. It was sadly growing every year as well. 2026 remains to be seen.
3. I take issue with the 223 for all hunting argument. Target shooting isn’t hunting. Putting a bullet on paper is not terminal performance on game especially large game like elk and moose. For those that understand bullet performance and shot placement there are many more that don’t. Wounded game should be a concern to all hunters. It’s worth a discussion.

The world might have been a bigger place years ago. It isn’t now. Ethics mean something. Ignoring and redefining ethics to suit someone’s personal aims is dangerous for hunting long term. I’d prefer hunters create their own rules and legislation around the sport, but that sadly doesn’t happen due to arguments like yours. So we wait for governments and non-hunting voters to do it and often don’t like the result.

 

[PerH]

Time to relax and see the two gigants in the field

Cal you are missed by many .

 

[Hunt anything]

That was a very enjoyable watch. Absolutely nothing wrong with that hunt.

 

[Fordy]

Gday hunter habib

I feel very sad when I see hunters condemning hunters, It was this sort of in-fighting which led to severe restrictions on hunting & firearms ownership in our part of the world (and it happened while I was growing up before my very eyes). That’s why I pursued the career I did, so that I could reverse some of these restrictions. But by the time I was finally in a position to do something about all this, the damage was already done and it was far too late. I want to see more young people hunting without facing condemnation from their own kind. And yes, it’s not right to compare the West (first world countries) with us (third world countries). But the principle is still the same. In-fighting will destroy us & what we love so much. Maybe it won’t happen in your part of the world as quickly as it did in ours. But unless the in-fighting stops, it will happen. We must learn to tolerate other forms of hunting even if we personally don’t hunt that way. It’s the only way ahead.

This above is so important & we need to band together
A few of us are getting that & here in Aussie some of us are even banding together with the antis
Yep oh shock horror but I can without a doubt tell that it is working oh yes definitely baby steps & extremely careful on how fast you show what’s occurring but the facts don’t lie & through this they are seeing the value of hunters & not stereotyped like we initially were but a longways to go for sure

I’ve been a total jerk over my early years & one no doubt some think I still am but I try to take as many kids or new hunters or even non hunters out as often as I can & show them the full story of the circle as I understand it or to the best of my knowledge & not afraid to say I’m wrong
YES I am still learning a lot so is everyone imo & sorry to single you out @PARA45 but this of yours needs repeating

And this is why we are losing the battle against the Antis; they stand together and fight against us, while we fight each other. We can't seem to come together (we all have our own opinions), and that is going to be our downfall.

But still time in a lot of places in the world if we can take a step back & take what has been said above but overall time will tell if our opinions or egos can work together for the good of our sport & more importantly for a sustainable balance of the critter’s & land we all love

I hope so anyway

Cheers