Light Weight 458 Lott Bullets

ldmay375

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I have been pondering some light weight 458 Lott loads for closer range use here in Alaska.

I will state up front, the 416 Ruger & Remington cartridges with a 350 grain TSX are my top end for my actual hunting use. But, I have a couple of 458 Winchesters and Lotts and enjoy shooting them.

Anyways, I was informally playing around with seating depths with the 450 grain TSX, 350 grain North Fork Cup Point expanding solid, and 380 grain Lehigh copper flat point.

I definitely ran out of magazine length before running out of throat length. The brass is once fired Hornady factory load. This particular rifle will allow using the top groove to seat the 450 grain TSX and function in the magazine, with this untrimmed once fired brass. Some rifles’ magazine lengths are too short for this.
 
A few pictures:
A15B3164-A67E-43BC-8B96-7C07587205C0.jpeg
52C03240-9105-42F5-AD0C-287F27EE8008.jpeg
1249B5F2-7020-4F6A-B5A5-16358059CB92.jpeg
 
450s aren't really a lightweight bullet in a 458 WM. More of an optimal weight by a lot of very knowledgeable people who shoot 458 WM. I would say 350 gr and below would be more of a lightweight bullet in the 458. I've been experimenting with some 258 gr CEB Socom bullets in mine. They are said to be pure death on PG and NA game within 200 yards. @michael458 would be the one to ask.
 
TOBY458,
I agree as to the 450 grain being near optimal in 458’s, with with more conventional bullets.


450s aren't really a lightweight bullet in a 458 WM. More of an optimal weight by a lot of very knowledgeable people who shoot 458 WM. I would say 350 gr and below would be more of a lightweight bullet in the 458. I've been experimenting with some 258 gr CEB Socom bullets in mine. They are said to be pure death on PG and NA game within 200 yards. @michael458 would be the one to ask.
 
TOBY458,
I agree as to the 450 grain being near optimal in 458’s, with with more conventional bullets.
I guess I have too much "elephant" on my brain lately! I bet for Cape Buffalo and the like, the 350 gr non conventional bullets would probably work just fine.
 
The 350 grain North Fork cup point, from Michael458’s prior testing impressed me.
I had originally wanted the 400 North Fork cup point for 458’s. But, could find only the 350’s.
Same for 45-70, I wanted to try the 325 grain cup point. But looks as though the 350 grain is the default.
I think any of these will be effective on moose and bear at closer ranges from about any angle.
 
450s aren't really a lightweight bullet in a 458 WM. More of an optimal weight by a lot of very knowledgeable people who shoot 458 WM. I would say 350 gr and below would be more of a lightweight bullet in the 458. I've been experimenting with some 258 gr CEB Socom bullets in mine. They are said to be pure death on PG and NA game within 200 yards. @michael458 would be the one to ask.

While I have developed several .500 caliber cartridges, working with them rather extensively in the field with incredible success, there will always be a place for 458 caliber, and perhaps deep down, it still is a favorite........ Many years ago someone said I needed to change from michael458 to michael500. As you see, I never took that advice.

I put 458s to work well over 20 years ago. In Zimbabwe I was asked to come over and help shoot some rowdy lions. I jumped on the chance, I did not have too many days, but jumped on the airplane anyway. I had a schedule lion hunt later that year in August, I had planned to use a factory 22 inch 458 Winchester I had picked up at a gun show in Florence SC some years prior. I had been working on loads, and settled on a 400 Swift A Frame at a dead steady 2325 fps. I had also just met Bill Hober that year, told him of my plan, and he thought the Swift might be a "Little Hard For Lion".... Well, maybe so, but this is what I am going to do anyway. Naturally, I had done some test work with this, and was well satisfied with Terminals at this point.

We had to have some bait, so I started shooting things, zebra, wildebeest and such. The 458 Win and 400 Swift was just slamming animals to the dirt where they stood. Nothing went anywhere, DRT..... Within a few days, lots of bait out and from that point it was checking baits every day and at night as well..........

Long story short, early evening, just getting dusky dark. On our way to another area, we dropped by quickly to check a bait we had close to the road. Checked, nothing........ on the way out, we noticed tracks in the road, in our tracks............ Getting out, taking a look, then just off to the left stood a male lion looking at us, not quite 20 yards.......... My guy said "Shoot"....... I did, lion disappeared? Dusky dark remember......... Making our way over, very very slowly and cautiously, we discover our lion DRT, and had just dropped down a small incline is all.......... As we stood there, spotted a large female lion about 15 yards out......... PH explained they had 18 female lion tags..... Thats all I needed to hear............ "Bang", another lion drops to the shot, but did make quite a fuss about it........... Two lions down............... And that 400 Swift A Frame just slammed them in the dirt, I reckon it was indeed "Pretty Hard On Lion", just as Bill more or less said it might be "Too Hard", but I think he meant something else when he made that statement.........

458 Caliber is Just DAMNED IMPRESSIVE when that bullet hits...............If of course you choose the right sort of bullet...............

I do, always have, and will always do so one thing....... Follow up with Solids when shooting buffalo. Those who say that is not required, well, they are wrong, and that is the end of that. But the point is not to argue that point, but another. In the early days I used a variety of Barnes Round Nose Solids.... either that or various Woodleigh's is what we had. I shot seconds on buffalo with RN solids many a time, and it was not impressive, just drilling along, sometimes I wondered if the buffalo even knew they were being hit? I remember one war with a big buff in Zimbabwe at very close range, starting at 12 steps, I wore him out with one big soft Woodleigh 500 in 458 Lott, and then proceeded to hammer him with 500 RN Solids...... After about the 4th solid he finally gave up, but most likely due to the 500 Woodleigh........... He paid zero attention to the RN Solids......

I soon switched to the Barnes FN Solids when they came out...... I found myself in Tanzania shooting buffalo, and the biggest thing I noticed was the buffalo was reacting very seriously to those FN Solids from 458 Lott......... Doing a pretty good job on the first shots, at that time using 500 Swift A Frames, followed by the FN Barnes...... If I could shoot, I was shooting........ and the buffalo did not like that Solid, they were being noticeably slammed hard by these...... very impressive........I was sold completely........later also using one on a hippo at very very close range, saving my bacon.

I loved 458 Caliber........ Still do..............

Today, we have some really incredible bullets available to us as hunters/shooters....... The first time I used some of these I was even more impressed with 458......... I believe it was 2013 when I first took the 250 Socom from Cutting Edge Bullets to the field. I had requested a 250 #13 Raptor, I had those, but Dan from CEB had developed a different 250, with cuts in the side of the nose to facilitate low velocity shear of blades, at the last moment he sent a bunch of these to me to take along to test on plains game. I did, I also quickly tested, and found that the 250 Socom gave 1 inch deeper penetration in the test medium, than the 250 #13 Raptor I had them design. Hmmm? I didn't pay much attention to that until later in the hunt.........

I shot a bunch of critters with a 18 inch 458 B&M, and the 250s running 2900 fps. Everything was just HAMMERED to the dirt. Shooting 25-30 animals, zebra, wildebeest, oryx, ++++ there was not one animal that ran or moved more than about 5 feet from where it stood at the shot....... Lots of investigation of terminals and innards....... which was extremely messy............ I recovered a couple of the 250 #13 Raptors, but I recovered NONE of the 250 Socom! Damn, well maybe that extra 1 inch in the test medium did indeed mean something?

The 250 Socom ended up being my choice of light for caliber bullets, only it was capable of doing a hell of a lot more for a light bullet, than light duty....... I actually shot a cow buffalo with it, and one of two 250 Socom recovered, the base on the far side of the buffalo in the hid..... Well, hell, I recovered 500 Swift A Frames from buffalo in the same manner.......... I did recover another in the neck of a big big brain shot on LAND hippo at 17 steps too........ at this range brains squirted out the ears 6 feet in both directions, skull was split badly, and I have that skull to this day on a table in my room...... Yep, Light bullet, doing heavy duty.................

Here is a friend of mine, his 458 B&M and the biggest moose I ever seen....... You guessed it, 250 Socom, from over 200 yards out, one shot, DRT on the spot, fired an insurance shot from the same range just to make sure........ and neither bullet recovered from the moose........ Yes, I think the 250 Socom in 458 caliber is a hammer on anything less than buffalo.............

IMG_0268-L.jpg


And there are so many more excellent bullets in 458, mentioned above the North Fork Cup Points, a 325 and 350, either of those are buffalo capable believe it or not........ They are incredible penetrators and expand as well......... Other North Forks, I think there is a 300, 350 and 400 Soft, they are fantastic............ Today look at Lehigh, and the EXTREME Penetrators and defense bullets, If not retired from hunting, I would definitely try these out on buffalo, even the lighter versions.......

My friend and Accountant just picked up a nice Winchester M70 458 Lott. Primary a buffalo rifle, but since he is another year out on that, I am setting his rifle up with the 250 Socom and he can shoot pigs and other critters in the meantime with it................I also dragged one of my 458 Lotts out to play with, since I had not done so in over 15 years.........

Also purchased myself a new Winchester M70 in 458 Winchester...... I was down to only one left, my Lion gun......... The new gun is at SSK now, having the barrel chopped down to proper length at 20 inches, installing NECG barrel band front sight as well............... One can very very easily set this gun up for everything, by using proper bullet tech we have today, its good for anything from deer/pigs to Elephant and everything in between...................

Yes, 458 Caliber Kicks ass and take names.................
 
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The 350 grain North Fork cup point, from Michael458’s prior testing impressed me.
DSC04555-L.jpg



Anything in this test medium above 20 inches is Buffalo Worthy............Moose..... No problems.
 
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How do you like the Montana rifle?
I think, I really like the rifle. But, I had an issue with this particular one.
Appears the front and rear receiver rings are out of plumb with the world and each other. I ran out of windage with 2 different sets of bases and 2 different scopes. I bought the rifle used, but apparently very little use.
When my gunsmith was visually troubleshooting, he mounted wider and flatter bases. Eyeballing the flats of the 2 bases, it was very obvious that they were canted and misaligned horizontally with each other. He machined the bases to achieve alignment. All appears good now. I am currently healing up from a shoulder repair, and will awhile before I fire it again.
I love the “feel” of this rifle, and it appeared that it wanted to group well with the 500 grain factory loads. But, when I ran out of windage, I ceased firing it. I just got it back a couple of weeks ago.
If it actually groups well enough, and I suspect it will, I am going to have the barrel cut to 22” and different sights added.
 
While I have developed several .500 caliber cartridges, working with them rather extensively in the field with incredible success, there will always be a place for 458 caliber, and perhaps deep down, it still is a favorite........ Many years ago someone said I needed to change from michael458 to michael500. As you see, I never took that advice.

I put 458s to work well over 20 years ago. In Zimbabwe I was asked to come over and help shoot some rowdy lions. I jumped on the chance, I did not have too many days, but jumped on the airplane anyway. I had a schedule lion hunt later that year in August, I had planned to use a factory 22 inch 458 Winchester I had picked up at a gun show in Florence SC some years prior. I had been working on loads, and settled on a 400 Swift A Frame at a dead steady 2325 fps. I had also just met Bill Hober that year, told him of my plan, and he thought the Swift might be a "Little Hard For Lion".... Well, maybe so, but this is what I am going to do anyway. Naturally, I had done some test work with this, and was well satisfied with Terminals at this point.

We had to have some bait, so I started shooting things, zebra, wildebeest and such. The 458 Win and 400 Swift was just slamming animals to the dirt where they stood. Nothing went anywhere, DRT..... Within a few days, lots of bait out and from that point it was checking baits every day and at night as well..........

Long story short, early evening, just getting dusky dark. On our way to another area, we dropped by quickly to check a bait we had close to the road. Checked, nothing........ on the way out, we noticed tracks in the road, in our tracks............ Getting out, taking a look, then just off to the left stood a male lion looking at us, not quite 20 yards.......... My guy said "Shoot"....... I did, lion disappeared? Dusky dark remember......... Making our way over, very very slowly and cautiously, we discover our lion DRT, and had just dropped down a small incline is all.......... As we stood there, spotted a large female lion about 15 yards out......... PH explained they had 18 female lion tags..... Thats all I needed to hear............ "Bang", another lion drops to the shot, but did make quite a fuss about it........... Two lions down............... And that 400 Swift A Frame just slammed them in the dirt, I reckon it was indeed "Pretty Hard On Lion", just as Bill more or less said it might be "Too Hard", but I think he meant something else when he made that statement.........

458 Caliber is Just DAMNED IMPRESSIVE when that bullet hits...............If of course you choose the right sort of bullet...............

I do, always have, and will always do so one thing....... Follow up with Solids when shooting buffalo. Those who say that is not required, well, they are wrong, and that is the end of that. But the point is not to argue that point, but another. In the early days I used a variety of Barnes Round Nose Solids.... either that or various Woodleigh's is what we had. I shot seconds on buffalo with RN solids many a time, and it was not impressive, just drilling along, sometimes I wondered if the buffalo even knew they were being hit? I remember one war with a big buff in Zimbabwe at very close range, starting at 12 steps, I wore him out with one big soft Woodleigh 500 in 458 Lott, and then proceeded to hammer him with 500 RN Solids...... After about the 4th solid he finally gave up, but most likely due to the 500 Woodleigh........... He paid zero attention to the RN Solids......

I soon switched to the Barnes FN Solids when they came out...... I found myself in Tanzania shooting buffalo, and the biggest thing I noticed was the buffalo was reacting very seriously to those FN Solids from 458 Lott......... Doing a pretty good job on the first shots, at that time using 500 Swift A Frames, followed by the FN Barnes...... If I could shoot, I was shooting........ and the buffalo did not like that Solid, they were being noticeably slammed hard by these...... very impressive........I was sold completely........later also using one on a hippo at very very close range, saving my bacon.

I loved 458 Caliber........ Still do..............

Today, we have some really incredible bullets available to us as hunters/shooters....... The first time I used some of these I was even more impressed with 458......... I believe it was 2013 when I first took the 250 Socom from Cutting Edge Bullets to the field. I had requested a 250 #13 Raptor, I had those, but Dan from CEB had developed a different 250, with cuts in the side of the nose to facilitate low velocity shear of blades, at the last moment he sent a bunch of these to me to take along to test on plains game. I did, I also quickly tested, and found that the 250 Socom gave 1 inch deeper penetration in the test medium, than the 250 #13 Raptor I had them design. Hmmm? I didn't pay much attention to that until later in the hunt.........

I shot a bunch of critters with a 18 inch 458 B&M, and the 250s running 2900 fps. Everything was just HAMMERED to the dirt. Shooting 25-30 animals, zebra, wildebeest, oryx, ++++ there was not one animal that ran or moved more than about 5 feet from where it stood at the shot....... Lots of investigation of terminals and innards....... which was extremely messy............ I recovered a couple of the 250 #13 Raptors, but I recovered NONE of the 250 Socom! Damn, well maybe that extra 1 inch in the test medium did indeed mean something?

The 250 Socom ended up being my choice of light for caliber bullets, only it was capable of doing a hell of a lot more for a light bullet, than light duty....... I actually shot a cow buffalo with it, and one of two 250 Socom recovered, the base on the far side of the buffalo in the hid..... Well, hell, I recovered 500 Swift A Frames from buffalo in the same manner.......... I did recover another in the neck of a big big brain shot on LAND hippo at 17 steps too........ at this range brains squirted out the ears 6 feet in both directions, skull was split badly, and I have that skull to this day on a table in my room...... Yep, Light bullet, doing heavy duty.................

Here is a friend of mine, his 458 B&M and the biggest moose I ever seen....... You guessed it, 250 Socom, from over 200 yards out, one shot, DRT on the spot, fired an insurance shot from the same range just to make sure........ and neither bullet recovered from the moose........ Yes, I think the 250 Socom in 458 caliber is a hammer on anything less than buffalo.............

View attachment 440332

And there are so many more excellent bullets in 458, mentioned above the North Fork Cup Points, a 325 and 350, either of those are buffalo capable believe it or not........ They are incredible penetrators and expand as well......... Other North Forks, I think there is a 300, 350 and 400 Soft, they are fantastic............ Today look at Lehigh, and the EXTREME Penetrators and defense bullets, If not retired from hunting, I would definitely try these out on buffalo, even the lighter versions.......

My friend and Accountant just picked up a nice Winchester M70 458 Lott. Primary a buffalo rifle, but since he is another year out on that, I am setting his rifle up with the 250 Socom and he can shoot pigs and other critters in the meantime with it................I also dragged one of my 458 Lotts out to play with, since I had not done so in over 15 years.........

Also purchased myself a new Winchester M70 in 458 Winchester...... I was down to only one left, my Lion gun......... The new gun is at SSK now, having the barrel chopped down to proper length at 20 inches, installing NECG barrel band front sight as well............... One can very very easily set this gun up for everything, by using proper bullet tech we have today, its good for anything from deer/pigs to Elephant and everything in between...................

Yes, 458 Caliber Kicks ass and take names.................
I Really like the Winchester M70’s in the 458 Winchester and 416 Remington.
I am playing phone tag regarding re-boring a M70 New Haven Classic stainless to 458 Lott. This is a Frankenstein rifle. Standard magnum action, magazine well block removed, ejector blade shortened, and a 375 H&H New Haven Classic stainless barrel fitted. It feeds, ejects, and functions fine.
I bought used, did not realize it was a standard shorter magnum action, until I went to install rear bases. Surprise !
 
How much penetration would you expect in actual animal tissue?
Rule of Thumb, 50% to 70% more penetration than test medium with conventional expanding. The CPS is not conventional, and would probably be 90%+ from what I have seen. Have shot a few buffalo with various CPS type bullets, none recovered, but none were end to end either.................have not shot buffalo or... with the .458s in 350 or 325, but I have zero doubts about what either will do or can do...........
This is a Frankenstein rifle.
I have had a few of those sort of things, can either be Frankentastic, or Frankenfubar............ We tried to convert a bunch of 300 Winchester M70s to 458 Lott.......... They were Frankenfubar...... after a great deal of Frankenscrewing with them they finally worked.............
 
Rule of Thumb, 50% to 70% more penetration than test medium with conventional expanding. The CPS is not conventional, and would probably be 90%+ from what I have seen. Have shot a few buffalo with various CPS type bullets, none recovered, but none were end to end either.................have not shot buffalo or... with the .458s in 350 or 325, but I have zero doubts about what either will do or can do...........
So if you got 24" with the 350gr CPS in test medium, we could reasonably say 44" or more on a buffalo? That's plenty I would think......Makes the 458 even more versatile still!
 
So if you got 24" with the 350gr CPS in test medium, we could reasonably say 44" or more on a buffalo? That's plenty I would think......Makes the 458 even more versatile still!
As Rule of Thumb, subject to other influences, bone for example and such as that..........The flexibility of skin is another factor that has to be considered as well..... big flat mushrooms get caught up, bullets like the base of a Raptor, various styles of CPS, those tend to cut through skin, and other internal tissue as well, increasing penetration.......

Going strictly from memory on this statement, but I believe the deepest penetrating conventional expanding bullet I ever tested here was a 500 gr Swift A Frame, 458 Lott, and 24 inches....... Its possible I might have had a conventional do more, but if so, I can't recall it without looking to make sure.......
 

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