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Randy Bo

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When you hit steel the bullet has no penetration which loses force. Steel gives no penetration so it has to move. That movement is your knockdown or knockover power. All the energy is concentrated on that one spot and in one direction.
Precisely...Which is why something like this may be the best way to predict knock down "potential"...The bullet transfers its energy to the steel target instantaneously...The steel target absorbs this energy and then reacts...It either falls back or remains standing...Our steel targets weigh approximately 20 lbs...I am not insinuating my .45/230 grain bullet would knock a 20 lb. coyote down...I am insinuating that my .45/230 grain bullet possess more knock down "potential" than my 9mm/115 grain bullet...And this is based on my observations...When I shoot a 20 lb. steel target with my 1911 the target appears to fall faster and harder, compared to shooting it with the Glock...Occasionally the target will not fall back when shot with the Glock...At the beginning of this post I used the term "energy"...I now think I should have used the term "momentum"...The 2 rounds mentioned have essentially the same kinetic energy (362 vs. 356 ft-lbs) with the edge going to the 9mm...But, the edge in momentum goes to the 1911 (27 vs. 19 lb-ft/sec) which equates to a 42% increase...So, I will propose that my 1911 setup possess 42% more knock down "potential" than my Glock setup...And, that this increase in knock down "potential" is directly related to momentum and not kinetic energy...

Disclaimer: I am a fat guy that moves slow ('bout time fat and slow gets some recognition)...
 

norfolk shooter

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And Tabasco! HA! HA! HA!
Let's not stop there. I'm of Indian origin and everything is better with some ground cumin and coriander seeds. Let's not forget turmeric
 

norfolk shooter

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Anyone also enjoying the idea that a calm animal being shot correctly dies faster than a animal that is tense and knows about danger?
Yes I agree with this idea. If a muntjac deer knows your there they dont hang about and take off into the next county and lightning speed. If you hit them when they are just chilling and eating flowers they drop on the spot. Same goes with Roe deer. The one I had run turned to look at me
 

Randy Bo

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Many years ago I read two articles that could be related to the relative stopping power of two competing cartridges but, I do not remember much from either article.
- The first article referenced the Philippine-American War (1899-1913)/Moro Rebellion...This article debated the effectiveness of the .38 Long Colt vs .45 Long Colt.
-The second article referenced the recent Afghanistan War...Supposedly, once this conflict began, some of our Special Forces requested for any existing M14's to be sent to Afghanistan. So, I suppose this would have been a 7.62 vs 5.56 debate.
I just don't remember much from either article...So, maybe someone could chime in on this...Or, since both of these articles are military related...Maybe @Red Leg could shed some light.
 

Newboomer

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Many years ago I read two articles that could be related to the relative stopping power of two competing cartridges but, I do not remember much from either article.
- The first article referenced the Philippine-American War (1899-1913)/Moro Rebellion...This article debated the effectiveness of the .38 Long Colt vs .45 Long Colt.
-The second article referenced the recent Afghanistan War...Supposedly, once this conflict began, some of our Special Forces requested for any existing M14's to be sent to Afghanistan. So, I suppose this would have been a 7.62 vs 5.56 debate.
I just don't remember much from either article...So, maybe someone could chime in on this...Or, since both of these articles are military related...Maybe @Red Leg could shed some light.
Article 1 is true. The Moros would bind themselves up in cloth so the 38 Colt would lose a lot of effect on them. The 45 Colt had power enough to penetrate.
Article 2 is right. The 5.56 didn't have very good stopping power. With ball ammo it just punched a small hole with seemingly little results The 7.62 did have shocking and penetration power. Same thing in Viet Nam.
 

Wyatt Smith

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The 38 colt is not a very powerful handgun to start with, while the 45 colt was designed to kill horses. (The cavalry had a lot of pull)
The 30-40 Krag was also not very effective against the drugged up enemy.
The preferred weapon was a Winchester 97 with 00 Buck.
 

xausa

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I have killed four elephants, three with my wildcat .505 SRE and one with my .458 WM. All the first shots were head shots and all the elephants hit the ground after the first shot. The first two (.505 and .458) required additional shots to keep them on the ground, but none made it to his feet again. The last two were successful brain shots and required no follow-ups. However, I went ahead and put a couple in the heart/lungs area, just to make sure.
The .505 wildcat is the ballistic equivalent of the .500 NE. The .458 WM used factory loads. Even a near miss on a brain shot with such cartridges will put an elephant on the ground, making follow up shots comparatively easy.
I once shot a wildebeest with my .505 SRE, using a Barnes 600 grain expanding bullet. At the shot, in the shoulder area, the animal hit the ground, then staggered to its feet and managed a couple of shaky steps befofe collapsing for good. The bullet shattered on contact with the shoulder blade and only fragments were found.
I would call that an illustration of knockdown power.
By contrast, I once shot a fairly large white tail buck in the shoulder area with my Winchester 88 in .308 Winchester, using a 150 grain expanding bullet. At the shot, the deer reared up on his hind legs and ran across the clearing he had been grazing in and disappeared into the trees. When I found him a short time later, he was dead, and both front legs were dangling uselessly from his broken shoulders. There was obviously no knockdown power involved in that instance.
 

calling4life

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You're looking for knockdown power to mean something is actually going to be knocked down by the initial hit of the ... whatever, and I don't know why. You're forcing a specific result when all kinds of varying possibilities and results are out there.

But here, picture all of this like this.

Imagine I had an F250, I put a 20' long 1/100" diameter spike off the front of it, you stand and I hit you at 100mph, but here's the thing, the truck never hits you, just the spike, what happens?

Now, take away the spike and I hit you with the truck at 100mph, see the difference?

Basically the same weight and same speed, what changed, area of impact. Bullets are tiny areas of impact, that will create a very different effect. That's one point to be addressed here.

Another, we use truck again, truck good, you know truck.

Truck has suspension, yes, yes, good.
Truck have rubber tire with air in it, yes, yes, good.

Both components absorb and tire area on road disperses the energy of your 7,000lb truck bouncing. Produces comfortable ride, yes, yes, well, relatively.

Imagine for a moment you have train tracks ahead, now these are those train tracks that are like a ramp and you've been dying to try and jump this, so you do.

What happens with proper suspension, suspension components, and wheels? You land, drive off, street isn't destroyed, you didn't get whiplash, didn't break your back or neck.

The energy of that 7,000lb truck traveling 100mph is still there, it's just absorbed and dispersed by the suspension and components, and tires, and dispersed over the area of the tire contacting the ground. Road isn't destroyed and neither are you.

Now, imagine you do that same jump, but we replace your tires with steel blocks the size of tire tread patch and you have no suspension, now imagine the truck is magic and doesn't fall apart so all of that is transferred to the ground. Potholes, smashed up pavement for the road.

You can imagine being in that truck as it slams and smashes down, the abuse evident, may now slam your head on the roof, break your neck, back, etc... Same energy, same contact area, very different result.

Now imagine that but with smaller contact area, or bigger, imagine skis of steel that are 3' wide and 100' long, the energy force being dispersed in such a large way the road may come out unscathed, though you in the truck will still feel abused.

Moving on:
So, using a steel plate as an idea isn't bad, as long as it doesn't give, as in, no dimple or bullet passing through. Energy will transfer in a pretty blunt way, picture silhouette targets that tip over... well, shoot one of those little 22 ones with your 458 lott, doesn't just tip does it...

And why using a human with a bullet proof vest won't work for your desired result, because behind that bullet proof vest is suspension, in the form of skin, a skeletal structure, liquid, organs etc... Not to mention the give of the vest itself.

The energy is absorbed in a different way, so the person or animal doesn't just go flying through the air. Even something as simple as picture someone pushing you when you're standing with your legs way apart vs together, same energy used, vastly different results.

Also, penetration of bullet through object doesn't dump all the energy, there is obviously that to consider as well.

So, just because the thing doesn't go flying, doesn't mean energy isn't a thing.

And most here know energy is big, stand tall with your feet together and fire a 500 Jeff that has a steel buttplate.

You'll likely see the animal knocked over, the animal being you. Affect would be much worse if your body weren't allowed to rotate, allowed to compress etc... to absorb some of that energy.

Does energy ultimately matter though, in killing an animal, sure, more disruption is more disruption.

Certainly it can be a HUGE component in a stop scenario. We see that in some of Mark Sullivan's videos, his first charge with the 500 NE, bullet hits between eyes misses brain just low, buffalo doesn't even react.
In later videos we see him use a 600 NE and a 577 NE, several instances where he misses brain but the animal is still incapacitated.

Like getting hit by Tyson vs your 12 year old daughter, Tyson puts you out, but your daughter is sleeping with your best friend.
 

crs

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All this shooting has made my ears ring, so I shall retire without further comment.
Goodnight gentlemen.
 

Bob Nelson 35Whelen

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You're looking for knockdown power to mean something is actually going to be knocked down by the initial hit of the ... whatever, and I don't know why. You're forcing a specific result when all kinds of varying possibilities and results are out there.

But here, picture all of this like this.

Imagine I had an F250, I put a 20' long 1/100" diameter spike off the front of it, you stand and I hit you at 100mph, but here's the thing, the truck never hits you, just the spike, what happens?

Now, take away the spike and I hit you with the truck at 100mph, see the difference?

Basically the same weight and same speed, what changed, area of impact. Bullets are tiny areas of impact, that will create a very different effect. That's one point to be addressed here.

Another, we use truck again, truck good, you know truck.

Truck has suspension, yes, yes, good.
Truck have rubber tire with air in it, yes, yes, good.

Both components absorb and tire area on road disperses the energy of your 7,000lb truck bouncing. Produces comfortable ride, yes, yes, well, relatively.

Imagine for a moment you have train tracks ahead, now these are those train tracks that are like a ramp and you've been dying to try and jump this, so you do.

What happens with proper suspension, suspension components, and wheels? You land, drive off, street isn't destroyed, you didn't get whiplash, didn't break your back or neck.

The energy of that 7,000lb truck traveling 100mph is still there, it's just absorbed and dispersed by the suspension and components, and tires, and dispersed over the area of the tire contacting the ground. Road isn't destroyed and neither are you.

Now, imagine you do that same jump, but we replace your tires with steel blocks the size of tire tread patch and you have no suspension, now imagine the truck is magic and doesn't fall apart so all of that is transferred to the ground. Potholes, smashed up pavement for the road.

You can imagine being in that truck as it slams and smashes down, the abuse evident, may now slam your head on the roof, break your neck, back, etc... Same energy, same contact area, very different result.

Now imagine that but with smaller contact area, or bigger, imagine skis of steel that are 3' wide and 100' long, the energy force being dispersed in such a large way the road may come out unscathed, though you in the truck will still feel abused.

Moving on:
So, using a steel plate as an idea isn't bad, as long as it doesn't give, as in, no dimple or bullet passing through. Energy will transfer in a pretty blunt way, picture silhouette targets that tip over... well, shoot one of those little 22 ones with your 458 lott, doesn't just tip does it...

And why using a human with a bullet proof vest won't work for your desired result, because behind that bullet proof vest is suspension, in the form of skin, a skeletal structure, liquid, organs etc... Not to mention the give of the vest itself.

The energy is absorbed in a different way, so the person or animal doesn't just go flying through the air. Even something as simple as picture someone pushing you when you're standing with your legs way apart vs together, same energy used, vastly different results.

Also, penetration of bullet through object doesn't dump all the energy, there is obviously that to consider as well.

So, just because the thing doesn't go flying, doesn't mean energy isn't a thing.

And most here know energy is big, stand tall with your feet together and fire a 500 Jeff that has a steel buttplate.

You'll likely see the animal knocked over, the animal being you. Affect would be much worse if your body weren't allowed to rotate, allowed to compress etc... to absorb some of that energy.

Does energy ultimately matter though, in killing an animal, sure, more disruption is more disruption.

Certainly it can be a HUGE component in a stop scenario. We see that in some of Mark Sullivan's videos, his first charge with the 500 NE, bullet hits between eyes misses brain just low, buffalo doesn't even react.
In later videos we see him use a 600 NE and a 577 NE, several instances where he misses brain but the animal is still incapacitated.

Like getting hit by Tyson vs your 12 year old daughter, Tyson puts you out, but your daughter is sleeping with your best friend.
@calling4life
You lost me after imagine a Ford mate.
Bob
 

edward

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JESUS CHRIST,BULLET PLACEMENT AND BULLET CONSTRUCTION.THATS IT.
SCREW YOUR PHYSICS.DONT LIKE IT,QUIT HUNTING.
 

Bob Nelson 35Whelen

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JESUS CHRIST,BULLET PLACEMENT AND BULLET CONSTRUCTION.THATS IT.
SCREW YOUR PHYSICS.DONT LIKE IT,QUIT HUNTING.
@edward.
I agree mate 100%. I hunt with a rifle not a bloody calculator.
Pick up rifle, load with appropriate ammo, find game, put sights on game and pull trigger. If all goes well pick up game and go home.
Not complicated.
This was told to me by a dumb man reading it to a deaf man who then told a blind man who then told me.
ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
Bob
 

Nhoro

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Just read an interesting article in African Hunting Gazette- A PH kept track of the calibre and number of one shot kills to each calibre for about 40 elephant.

Winner was 375 H&H and the larger calibres were a significantly lower percentage. He put that down to two things- All 375's were scoped and less recoil. FWIW
 

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Rick HOlbert wrote on NTH's profile.
NTH, Just found your message. I hunt with Eland Pro Safaris in Namibia. Wide selection of game and great folks. Hell my PH and his family ARE adopted family, LOL! I book people to hunt with them and should you be interested I'd be happy to meet and discuss a trip. Anyway all the best to you and give me a shout sometime. Bye for now.
NTH wrote on Rick HOlbert's profile.
Nice “meeting” you Rick. I made my first trip to S. Africa this year through Kuche Safaris. We had an incredible time. What outfitter do you use? Neal
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