Is this really hunting?

Discussion in 'Hunting Africa' started by TokkieM, Jul 19, 2015.

  1. Royal27

    Royal27 AH ENABLER AH Ambassador

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    I disagree, Bill. If what was done is wrong then there is absolutely nothing wrong with adding a personal opinion to the story. Perhaps the hunter, or someone else, will actually learn something positive from hearing it? Maybe this guy would be embarrassed if he saw what Redleg said and would go out and get more practice time with his bow. I know that I did things as a kid that I would never do today and in large part because of what I heard people say about them, and it made sense when I thought about it.

    I'm just getting tired of hearing that if it is legal we have to support it and we are doomed if we don't. To me, we end up sounding like a political party (all of them) that demands the "party line" be supported so they can stay in power. I just won't base my opinions, nor sweep something under the rug, based upon what some anti might think.
     

  2. Mr. 16 gauge

    Mr. 16 gauge AH Fanatic

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    Sorry, but there is no "grey area" between right and wrong........and this is definetly WRONG!!!! There is no "high horse" that enters into this situation at all!! I don't understand how you can even begin to try and defend any of this individuals actions as a "hunt"?!

    Yes, animals don't just fall over dead while bow hunting, but if you've put two arrows in one, chased it (not tracked it) for miles and then have to finish it off with a rifle, you obviously aren't a bow hunter, or even a bow hunter wannabe.........your just some A-hole flinging pointy sticks because you feel it's "cool".(n):mad:(n)

    By turning a blind eye to events such as these and trying to 'justify' it....to anyone.....will cause bowhunting and other techniques to be banned more quickly than other hunters condemning it,and....quite frankly....this kinda crap needs to be banned!!!! I'm as liberal as the next guy when it comes to preserving traditions, esp. some I disagree with, because 'that's how it always has been done", but this is an abomination and should not be tolerated.

    ...and Arc Africa has a good point: if this is some anti looking just to cause trouble, then piss on 'em. If not, then we are giving ourselves a black eye by not calling this perverse jackass out and ridiculing him on a public forum!:mad:
     
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  3. Bsums

    Bsums AH Enthusiast

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    To me this isn't hunting. We need to judge other hunts/hunters by two criteria, ethics and legality. I don't know if this hunt was legal or not. But what I do know is this is ethically wrong. If a hunt is legal but is morally and ethically wrong then we should not be supportive of it. I like Boone and Crockett and their stance on fair chase, canned hunting, etc and their wording is much better than I could write. But this hunt breaks Boone & Crockett's ethics:
    3. Exercise a personal code of behavior that reflects favorably on your abilities and sensibilities as a hunter.

    4. Attain and maintain the skills necessary to make the kill as certain and quick as possible.

    5. Behave in a way that will bring no dishonor to either the hunter, the hunted, or the environment.

    Using an aircraft to spot an animal reflects poorly on one's abilities and sensibilities as a hunter. An animal with two arrows in it and a gun shot that took a long time to die reflects on this hunter's skill, although we have to view his abilities with a grain of salt as we all make bad shots from time to time. This behavior is also shameful for the hunter, spotting an animal in an aircraft and then racing after it has many red flags.
     
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  4. billc

    billc AH ENABLER SILVER SUPPORTER AH Legend

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    Well if we police ourselves the only way to do it is by the laws out there. Like it or not the whole world runs on law. The hunting police will not be there for ever animal taken so some guys will push what they find to be hunting. Not sure how else we can do anything but put laws in place. some will like others will not.

    I think what some are losing in my replys is I am not for how this hunt was done at all. But just think of how guys say 50 or 75 years ago or longer would look at how we hunt now. We will all justify how we hunt in our own mind but how about looking at the facts and really how we hunt

    One we get in a truck to start our hunt in africa. How different is that from the plane really. Both man made to make life easier on us and both gives us the advantage to cover more area. One is the standard way now the other was taken advantage of wrongly so to do this giraffe shoot.
    I know we all also dont start walking from the camp door. Then we take are bino's ,range finders , guns or bows that are so far ahead of things from the past. All stuff that helps us for the better but is it hunting like when hunting started. Then we head out with our ph and tracker to the area they know. We follow them to the animal we want to take. Yes a few times the hunter might find his owe animal but for the must part game in africa is spotted for us. We now follow them to the point we get on the sticks and take the shoot. Is this a hunt or we just shooting now. I guess it all depends on how you look at it. I am ok with it but depending on the person they may not be. So do I stop hunting now because someone else tells me I am not hunting properly.



    Going to be harder to get all hunters to think alike as we all have what hunting is to us. The people we are fighting with has one goal save animals they have it much easier to get to there end goal.

    There is no easy answer to how we help ourselves I am just not going to act like I have all the answer. ( yes at times it seems to some I think I do).
     
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  5. Big5

    Big5 AH Fanatic

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    Bsums . . . I wholeheartedly agree with you on all counts.

    To anyone with a sense of morality this situation is indefensibly wrong. I also find that when people try to rationalize or defend such acts it makes a very strong statement about them as well.
     

  6. billc

    billc AH ENABLER SILVER SUPPORTER AH Legend

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    Not sure who who is defending how this went down. If saying we dont need to add to the story is defending it then I guess it is me. Let me spell it out to all who seem to lose me saying this. The hunts was WRONG WRONG WRONG . Not defending it as a hunt PERIOD.
     
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  7. Mr. 16 gauge

    Mr. 16 gauge AH Fanatic

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    REALLY!!!.................SERIOUSLY!!!!!!!!!!! :E Shake Head: Your going to compare driving around in the bush to flying around in an airplane???!!!!:E Nono: That's like comparing a smoothbore flintlock musket with a patched round ball to an inline loaded with smokeless powder and sabots and calling them "equal" because the are both muzzleloaders...............:A Whacky:

    I give up.....................................Your sense of "justification' for the above actions is just beyond my feeble brain to comprehend..................truly!:E Red Hot:

    As for "policing" and "laws": You might be surprised how fast people change their attitudes/actions when "peer pressure/peer review" is put into place.......I bet if enough hunters decried his actions on his FB page, it would come down in a hurry (unless he was a total A-hole, which just might be the case), he would take his post down........and no "law" was necessary.
     

  8. billc

    billc AH ENABLER SILVER SUPPORTER AH Legend

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    Again read it for what it is. I am saying to non hunters there both the same and both wrong in there eyes. I also said it was WRONG to use the plane. Read the whole thing not just what you want to read. I said it was WRONGLY taken advantage of on this shoot. That would mean I think it is wrong. I am trying to show you how others look at it not my point of view. You want to beat the anti hunters you best start looking at how they think to win the war.

    I am not justifying this hunt in any way. Trying to say we should all look at how we hunt because one way or other we have done a hunt that another hunter does not like.
     
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  9. Big5

    Big5 AH Fanatic

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    Billc . . . read my post carefully. Nowhere will you find a reference to you or the name of anyone else. I made a general statement about my belief relative to those who defend what I consider immoral and indefensible acts of all kinds, hunting related or not.

    However, if you are so sensitive and thin skinned as to believe my post was directed at you alone maybe the shoe fits. That's for you to decide.
     

  10. billc

    billc AH ENABLER SILVER SUPPORTER AH Legend

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    I was just trying to make it clear I was not in favor of this shoot. Yours was just the post I clicked. I did not take it as a shot at me. No thin skin and for sure not that sensitive. sorry if you felt I was coming at you directly.
     

  11. K-man

    K-man AH Elite

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    Remember gentlemen and ladies what the real issue is here. The anti-hunting groups and our image to the rest of the world. If we don't police ourselves it will be done for us with bans and import restrictions. Its a lose-lose situation. If we divide over the style of hunting, the antis win, and we lose our legal hunts. If we dont, the hunting community loses support wordwide. The only way we stop this is put teeth into groups like phasa, sci, etc and also use our money by not booking with outfitters like this. When a light shines on the situation we are either in the spotlight or beside it. How do you explain that our way of hunting is approved and there way is not to an anti?
     
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  12. sestoppelman

    sestoppelman AH ENABLER AH Ambassador

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    No this is not hunting. Hunting means different things to different people. To me, sitting in a blind over a waterhole where animals come to drink, and sticking an arrow in their body is not hunting either, it is waiting and shooting. Same as sitting in a tree stand over a feed lot for whitetail deer. Its waiting and shooting, not hunting.
     
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  13. CAustin

    CAustin AH ENABLER BRONZE SUPPORTER AH Ambassador

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    Yep this type hunt is not for me. However, some might say that using a truck to go spot game is not right either. It's sad that the bowman was unable to put his arrow on target. It can be done and most often is done quickly by hunters who have put in enough practice. Heck there is a YouTube video of a bow hunter taking down a a bull elephant with his bow and the animal only went 100 yards.......just like a heart lung shot with a rifle.
    Now if you go up to the frozen north the use of a plane to find herds on the frozen ground is common. I don't know what amount of ground needed to be covered for the hunt in question but if we are talking 200,000 acres or so I guess they found it appropriate! Again I wouldn't want to do it that way but I would use a truck to get from point A to point B and points C, D, F just like I use an ATV to get around my deer club down in Arkansas.
     
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  14. TokkieM

    TokkieM AH Fanatic

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    Gents the report is not by a Anti trying to stir things up. It was posted on a Outfitters FB page with the clients name and other info. This is from within not from the outside.

    Billc I dont for a moment think you agree with this,but I have to differ from you on a few things. Contrary to what most folks believe and have read on Africa back in the good old days it is not all as romantic as paper would like is believe. Riding into a herd of buff or elephant or anything else and shooting at 10-20 animals and only recovering 10-12 was not hunting either. Burning grass to smoke animals into a firing line was not a sporting thing to do either,but it was done. So was beating Springbuck to death with a stirrup when bullets ran out.
    Ivory hunters hunted for money,nothing else. I hope we have progressed from that,but the post above proved me wrong.

    There is a huge reason why hunting organizations have a code of ethics,because the law and ethics do not always walk hand in hand. Being within the law does not make me ethical it makes me comply with the law.

    Any PH or dedicated bow hunter would know when his shot is off target and not in the killzone,that's why you have a PH,trying to claim a bow kill by waiting for the animal to go down is a diffrent story. I am also very sure that if it was not due to the time constraints in skinning a Giraffe,they would have continued throwing arrows at it.

    I for one don't buy into we need to support every and anyway of hunting as long as it is within the law. As you have stated,we have far better equipment and we are better equipped to hunt. Competition,bragging rights,ego's and self importance have no place in fair chase hunting,neither does killing for the sake of killing.
     
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  15. Adrian

    Adrian AH Fanatic

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    Just because something is legal, doesn't make it right.

    Most people here can identify for themselves what is right or wrong according to their personal ethics and happily most are in favour of fair chase hunting and doing things the right way.

    If an outfitter offered a plane ride to go and spot some game, rush back and ambush it in a truck, take a few pot shots at it and if they don't work, try a better method of finishing it off, all the while the animal is suffering unduly I seriously doubt anyone here would take up the offer and most would be pretty disgusted because it isn't fair chase and isn't ethical.

    Just because you can, doesn't mean you have to.
     

  16. Norwegianwoods

    Norwegianwoods SILVER SUPPORTER AH Elite

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    Way to often we see "hunters" want the easy way to collect trophies and they are willing to do whatever it takes to get it done.
    And sadly, so do some PHs and outfitters.
     
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  17. Limpopo Big Game Safaris

    Limpopo Big Game Safaris SPONSOR Since 2019 AH Fanatic

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    There is no way in hell that hunt could have been legal and even if it was it's disgusting to think there are still people out there doing things like that...

    No wonder there is a cloud hanging over the hunting industry and especially SA.
     
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  18. tarbe

    tarbe AH ENABLER AH Legend

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    I don't imagine there are any folks here on AH that would feel right or good about the Giraffe shoot depicted in the OP. It was disturbing.

    I also think I understand what Bill is trying to say.

    It could be, for many, just a short slip down the slope, going from a 4wd truck to a light plane. No, they are not the same...but they do the same thing, they give a massive mechanical advantage to the hunter. It is just a matter of degree.

    Incrementalism. We have all participated.
     
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  19. Hank2211

    Hank2211 AH ENABLER GOLD SUPPORTER AH Legend

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    I find this against my personal ethics on many levels.

    Having said that, and assuming it's legal (where this would be legal is a mystery to me), many have said we need to police ourselves.

    OK, how do you propose we do that? I'm happy to ostracize these sorts of people when I meet them and become aware of these activities, but seriously, how do we police this?

    If it's illegal, call the police. Otherwise, what?
     

  20. BRICKBURN

    BRICKBURN AH ENABLER SUPER MODERATOR CONTRIBUTOR LIFETIME TITANIUM BENEFACTOR AH Ambassador

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    Apparently some folks in the early days in America thought this was appropriate.

    tarfeather.jpg

    tar and feather.jpg
     
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