Is this normal behavior by a Safari outfitter?

[franzfmdavis]

Do you feel ethical paying just $180 for lodging, meals, PH, ranches to hunt and all the other costs??

Candidly, I have no frame of reference from which to make a judgment in that regard. It would be like me asking. Do you feel ethical paying me $550 an hour for legal fees? There is no way to answer that without understanding the market and what you were getting for it. This is going to be my first African hunt so I have no frame of reference.

 

[franzfmdavis]

I believe that when a travelling hunter gets substandard service or just plain ripped off, the hunter should report the problem and the name on every public blog/forum possible. It's about accountability.
Brian

I generally agree, but don’t think it is fair to do so before the issue has been finalized. I think a lot of people are far too quick in passing judgment before multiple points of view are considered and discussed.

I certainly have my starting perspective, but I’m open minded enough to accept it may be flawed or incorrect.

For me, this could just be one hunt with one outfitter, but for the outfitter, it is their business and likely supports many peoples livelihood. I just want to tread carefully in that regard and am trying to educate myself on what is a reasonable expectation on this issue and others.

I greatly appreciate everyone’s input!

 

[grand veneur]

I may “realize” this with more experience hunting worldwide as you state, but I will never accept that any of the criteria you claim should be self evident are reasonable or ethical.

When booking a hunt you have to take a few things into account that are often not shown in the offer. The transfer costs to the hunting area are not always taken into account, and if these have to be done with a charter flight, the costs are even more expensive. All of this must be taken into account when booking, as well as the costs of export and post-treatment of the trophies. I have 40 years of experience hunting worldwide.

 

[Scott CWO]

Candidly, I have no frame of reference from which to make a judgment in that regard. It would be like me asking. Do you feel ethical paying me $550 an hour for legal fees? There is no way to answer that without understanding the market and what you were getting for it. This is going to be my first African hunt so I have no frame of reference.

Well you’re certainly starting at the bottom. I’ve paid $1600 to over $2000 per day for hunts in Zambia, Tanzania, Mozambique, Botswana, etc.., so $420 is cheap.

Would you supply lodging, meals, guiding, ranches, etc… for $180 per day? Clearly, you know it is not possible. You’re an educated person.

 

[Doug3006]

The short answer is “no.” If it were me, I’d ask for my deposit back and seek my entertainment elsewhere.

 

[K-man]

I would immediately start looking for another outfitter that has open dates that work with your flight schedule. Give them a comparable list of animals you are interested in, so you have apples to apples comparison. It should not be difficult to quote a package for next summer. When you get your quote back, you will easily know where you want to go, and the anxiety will be gone. You have enough to think about on your first trip, this shouldn't be one of them. Good luck!!

 

[franzfmdavis]

Well you’re certainly starting at the bottom. I’ve paid $1600 to over $2000 per day for hunts in Zambia, Tanzania, Mozambique, Botswana, etc.., so $420 is cheap.

Would you supply lodging, meals, guiding, ranches, etc… for $180 per day? Clearly, you know it is not possible. You’re an educated person.

Since you claim to understand the business side of this better than I do, would you risk $25,000 in added trophy fees for extra animals not included in the package in order to collect an additional $800 in a daily rate?

It is surprising that you absolve the outfitter of all responsibility for something completely within their control and put all of the burden on the client who you think knows what things “should” cost in another country. Under your logic, I should be able to tell them what the daily rate is that I’m going to pay based on my thorough understanding of the variables that affect them.

If an outfitter is so underwater on their daily rate, then they should adjust it accordingly and publicly in a visible way so that people can understand what they are signing up for rather than try to do a bait and switch.

 

[wesheltonj]

If they will not honor the original price, I would tell them forget it and with that extra day I would head to JNB and get me a room at the Intercontinental, relax, sightsee and have a nice dinner at Quills.

 

[franzfmdavis]

If they will not honor the original price, I would tell them forget it and with that extra day I would head to JNB and get me a room at the Intercontinental, relax, sightsee and have a nice dinner at Quills.

That is precisely what we would do.

Ultimately, it is unfortunate for everyone involved because we had hoped to hunt additional animals both this trip and with them in the future.

Of course, no final decision has been made because I’ve not connected yet with the owner to see if we can sort this out

 

[franzfmdavis]

Many years ago in 2008 I started my own law practice because I was uncomfortable working for firms that expected me to bill in ways that were common practice and not against the rules of professional responsibility, but unethical in my view. For example, I was expected to bill in 15 minute increments, regardless of how long task took even if it was a few moments, such as leaving a basic message to call back. With that expectation, I could bill about an hour and a half half each 15 minutes if I was efficient. I was expected to charge for drafting a letter, having my assistant review it, and then having me do a final review making the charge three times as expensive as it needed to be. I was expected to charge one dollar per page per copy. These types of expectations made me uncomfortable and eventually, I started my own firm and did it differently.

All of us who have owned the business know the nuances of how we can be genuinely ethical, or just adhere to industry norms.

I prefer to do business with people who are genuinely ethical.

I came up with the motto a long time again that is: offer nothing short of what you expect, and accept nothing short of what you deserve.

 

[Hunt anything]

Normally there is a list of animals that are included in a pkg. this should not affect what your bottom line is . You haven’t said if any are included but I may have missed it.
The only pkg hunt I’ve ever bought was a buffalo hunt in Mozambique all other hunts I’ve taken have been day rates and trophy fee charged for animals taken. This way you can pick and choose what animal you want and not be pressured into one you really aren’t that excited about. If animal’s you want are included in a pkg that’s great. This being your first trip everything will appeal to you most likely.

 

[Mekaniks]

Many years ago in 2008 I started my own law practice because I was uncomfortable working for firms that expected me to bill in ways that were common practice and not against the rules of professional responsibility, but unethical in my view. For example, I was expected to bill in 15 minute increments, regardless of how long task took even if it was a few moments, such as leaving a basic message to call back. With that expectation, I could bill about an hour and a half half each 15 minutes if I was efficient. I was expected to charge for drafting a letter, having my assistant review it, and then having me do a final review making the charge three times as expensive as it needed to be. I was expected to charge one dollar per page per copy. These types of expectations made me uncomfortable and eventually, I started my own firm and did it differently.

All of us who have owned the business know the nuances of how we can be genuinely ethical, or just adhere to industry norms.

I prefer to do business with people who are genuinely ethical.

I came up with the motto a long time again that is: offer nothing short of what you expect, and accept nothing short of what you deserve.

Yes sir you are correct.

My guess is that it was a miss communication regarding “hunting day” and “travel day”. The two rates almost always different because a PH is not always required for travel days….

Regardless, if it is not settled to your satisfaction, it should be easy enough for you to take the trip as was originally agreed. Then spend an extra day in Joberg on your way home. As @wesheltonj suggested Quills Restaurant in the Intercontinental Hotel at the airport is excellent….

Have fun and good hunting

 

[samson7x]

I’m so tired of Kuche safaris - the stupid gun broker postings, every DU auction, every Wild turkey foundation Auction. Sci events ect ect - They are EVERYWHERE


I said it

Yep. Knew instantly who this was about. I had a bad experience in communicating with them last year as well and bailed on the hunt. Owner didn’t offer help either.

Beware of their in house taxidermy shop too. Friends hunted with him several years ago on a DU bid and they are still waiting on trophies and offered nothing but excuses. I doubt they ever see them at this point.

 

[WAB]

If they will not honor the original price, I would tell them forget it and with that extra day I would head to JNB and get me a room at the Intercontinental, relax, sightsee and have a nice dinner at Quills.

Now you’re talking!

 

[WAB]

Now you’re talking!

Get a driver to take you to a couple of the local gun shops and
Cambanos is always worth a visit.

 

[gizmo]

If they will not honor the original price, I would tell them forget it and with that extra day I would head to JNB and get me a room at the Intercontinental, relax, sightsee and have a nice dinner at Quills.

Ok sooooo, I 100% agree with the above statement. It is ridiculous to quote a price, confirm it, then turn around and go back on your word using the " subject to change crap". I have mis-quoted things before, from the business end it sucks and I had to eat it, but at the end of the day a business is only as good as it's word. If they don't honor it, leave the day that was originally scheduled and go sight seeing. Also inform them that they will not get future business, and at that point (only if they refuse to make it right) mention their name. I would hope all of the outfitters on this forum would hold good on this. WTF would they worry about $800 when they stand to looses thousands over being a jackass.

 

[Hogpatrol]

My 2¢, Ok, someone screwed up. I get it. Therefore, I'd offer to split the difference and negotiate the $180 to $300. If that's not amenable, agree with others, take the extra day and stay at a hotel near Tambo and check out a few gun shops.

 

[Scott CWO]

Since you claim to understand the business side of this better than I do, would you risk $25,000 in added trophy fees for extra animals not included in the package in order to collect an additional $800 in a daily rate?

It is surprising that you absolve the outfitter of all responsibility for something completely within their control and put all of the burden on the client who you think knows what things “should” cost in another country. Under your logic, I should be able to tell them what the daily rate is that I’m going to pay based on my thorough understanding of the variables that affect them.

If an outfitter is so underwater on their daily rate, then they should adjust it accordingly and publicly in a visible way so that people can understand what they are signing up for rather than try to do a bait and switch.

I don’t understand your question in the first paragraph. Are you asking as a hunter or as if an outfitter? Where did your $800 amount come from? $25k? Are you adding up fees for all four hunters?

 

[Tbitty]

A few bits of thought based on the details here and various inputs:

1. Outfitter should absolutely honor their quoted prices when shown in writing back to them. At the bare minimum, if it was truly an error in quote, apologize and explain the situation and then try to amicably resolve to Clients satisfaction.

2. $180 USD per hunter, especially as a Group of 4+, is likely sufficient to relatively cover operator costs of personnel for 1 add on day of PG hunting in RSA. A year or so ago, that was a common price point to see for regular day rates. Current prices are generally closer to $300-400 per day for PG, often a bit higher for DG. ... if OP was asking for a week extra at lower rate, it would be a much different conversation than 1 day, especially since he has that 1 day at $180 in writing as stated price.

3. I adamantly disagree that OP is trying to "scam" the outfitter for an extra day that would cause outfitter to lose money. He has specifically not posted Outfitter or hunt details and left it vague to try and hide the identity/name of who he's booked with.
3a. If $220 is the difference in outfitter making/losing money on a (presumably) 5-10 day hunt, the Outfitter is already losing money and should have never agreed to the hunt in the first place.

4. If this is a package hunt with animals and hunt costs combined for a set price, I probably wouldn't let this 1 day disagreement dissuade me from going. As mentioned by others, spend the extra day elsewhere and continue on. ... if it is a package of hunt cost only, with trophy fees to be added at then-current pricing, I would still go, but my "hit list" would get a lot smaller depending on what those trophy prices are and what my hunt budget is.

5. The most important thing I can offer is to not let this ruin your hunt. If it will, you should try to recoup any deposits you can and/or walk away and plan a different hunt.

I hope this works out for you. Let us know what the Owner says, or if you can come to an amicable solution.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

When booking a hunt you have to take a few things into account that are often not shown in the offer. The transfer costs to the hunting area are not always taken into account, and if these have to be done with a charter flight, the costs are even more expensive. All of this must be taken into account when booking, as well as the costs of export and post-treatment of the trophies. I have 40 years of experience hunting worldwide.

This fella is not booked with a charter flight and export/treatment of trophies is always exclusive of the daily rate or safari operator's costs. This is about the operator charging an exorbitant rate for ONE extra day. I'm sorry, but I have a really, really hard time believing the operators costs have gone up that much since the original booking. If there is a spot for these four to stay, then outfitter should accommodate. If he is fully booked up, which I find hard to believe given the way this outfit is set up (i.e. brigade size mess hall), then perhaps that MIGHT be a different story. Then these clients should just be told to spend a night in town at a hotel and do some shopping.

I wouldn't give that sorry outfit +$400/day for plains game no matter what. Never. Not for one day or a hundred. It's not the way I hunt. And I have seen enough reports on here to know that outfit genuinely is NOT interested in return customers ... except for the really big tippers. You know, the ones with $1K safari hats.