Hunting SA or "Wild" Africa - Which is Better

[Scott CWO]

Did you read my post in its entirety? I did mention that he waived that extra fee.

My not booking with him had nothing to do with that, but the overall pricing structure. I felt that the outfitter has to have some skin in the game, and I did not feel like paying $74K in fees for a 14 day hunt that did not come across a shootable elephant. An expensive walkabout. I'd have gone for a higher trophy fee and a bit more equitable cost distribution with the end result still being the $84K he charges. (2023 pricing). A $10K trophy fee refund was not acceptable to me for an unsuccessful hunt.

I am not asking for a guaranteed hunt in a wild area. However, he is advertising and justifying his prices due to the alleged abundance of shootable large tuskers. Well, if that is so then he should also share some of the risk in that, otherwise it becomes a very expensive hike for the client if the hunt is unsuccessful. Not to mention the client's cost is not just the hunt fee. Add other expenses like airfare to get there, charters and sundry fees and the cost climbs to over $100K. Which I was willing to pay if it was not for the sticking point mentioned above.

Not agreeing with someone's pricing structure is not disparaging them or their character by the way. It is just disagreeing period. Methinks, you protest too much.

If the shootable tuskers are there, Johan has no incentive to lower his base price. There are other outfitters that have a higher base price and no trophy fee so Johan is actually already taking some of the risk you mention and getting more money if you shoot something real big to get back to par with other top outfitters. His area also borders a national park on one side and a unhunted reserve on another side and was a known, consistent producer of big bulls in the past. There are also cheaper options but most of their areas do not border as many unhunted areas in the prime habitat but a big bull can pop up in any area but I was looking for consistency. You and others on this site had also mentioned that the size of the bulls would drop after hunting began. That could be true in more marginal areas but so far, has not happened in Johan’s area. I went in 2021, the first year that elephant reopened, and my bull was near the top end of what he took but not the largest. In 2022, he took some bulls even larger, including a 100 pounder and another in the 90s. It will be interesting to see what happens this year.

 

[Scott CWO]

And what do you consider value? Because there is far higher reward vs risk? I know personally of 3 hunters who went to SA who did not like the hunt. They did not like the fences and they’d rather choose a free range elk hunt which costs MORE than all 6 of their SA plains game, and there’s no guarantee for an elk regardless of price. You have to remember there are a whole lot of folks who want to actually hunt and will do whatever is necessary to hunt in the purest form rather than spend money to hang animals on the wall.

Some good points you make here.

I have wilderness elk clients that are so hardcore about the wilderness aspect that they have no desire to hunt private land for elk or other species because they perceive that as easier and not as pure. It has nothing to do with money or stacking up animals for lots of people.

As for my open area safaris in Africa, I like to take several animals but the experience I am seeking is more important than the tally of animals.

 

[revturbo9967]

Some good points you make here.

I have wilderness elk clients that are so hardcore about the wilderness aspect that they have no desire to hunt private land for elk or other species because they perceive that as easier and not as pure. It has nothing to do with money or stacking up animals for lots of people.

As for my open area safaris in Africa, I like to take several animals but the experience I am seeking is more important than the tally of animals.

I’m in the same boat. The outfit I hunt pronghorn with last year does a lot of elk hunting on private land, from a lodge using trucks. You’re in a lounge chair every evening drinking beer watching tv going over the next days attack. This is perfectly acceptable for some and nothing wrong with it at all, but not how I want to hunt elk. My idea of a proper elk hunt should be in the back country from a tent. I wanted to try this outfit out with pronghorn first before booking an elk hunt with them , and I’m glad I did. Great place and well run outfit, but they catered to a different type of hunter .

 

[PhotoCollector73]

If the shootable tuskers are there, Johan has no incentive to lower his base price. There are other outfitters that have a higher base price and no trophy fee so Johan is actually already taking some of the risk you mention and getting more money if you shoot something real big to get back to par with other top outfitters. His area also borders a national park on one side and a unhunted reserve on another side and was a known, consistent producer of big bulls in the past. There are also cheaper options but most of their areas do not border as many unhunted areas in the prime habitat but a big bull can pop up in any area but I was looking for consistency. You and others on this site had also mentioned that the size of the bulls would drop after hunting began. That could be true in more marginal areas but so far, has not happened in Johan’s area. I went in 2021, the first year that elephant reopened, and my bull was near the top end of what he took but not the largest. In 2022, he took some bulls even larger, including a 100 pounder and another in the 90s. It will be interesting to see what happens this year.

Yes, you bring up an interesting topic. Some people (hunters), even on this forum, believe that somehow the big elephants in Botswana will gradually disappear due to the reopening of hunting...

1. Johan and his outfit for the past 20-something years have had a consistent percentage of heavy ivory being taken annually.
2. As the years went by, more and more 90-pounders have been taken.
3. Why would this suddenly just stop?
4. If @Tanks seriously believed that big elephants would eventually be weeded out, it's interesting how he (morally) still had no problem booking a hunt with Johan, even with that (highly incorrect) piece of information at the back of his conscience.

Not to make any accusations, but that, to me, calls into question his hunting ethics. In the past, he's consistently stated that elephant hunting is "addictive" and not a passion and/or great experience. From an outsider's perspective that can come across as quite ugly.

Johan Calitz mainly specializes in big elephants but whenever someone might bring up the topic of elephant hunting, he never refers to the practice like it's just a hobby of his. He takes a great amount of pride in hunting the big bulls and you can immediately see the enthusiasm emanating from him. There's no smugness whatsoever...

 

[Tanks]

...
4. If @Tanks seriously believed that big elephants would eventually be weeded out, it's interesting how he (morally) still had no problem booking a hunt with Johan, even with that (highly incorrect) piece of information at the back of his conscience.

Not to make any accusations, but that, to me, calls into question his hunting ethics. In the past, he's consistently stated that elephant hunting is "addictive" and not a passion and/or great experience. From an outsider's perspective that can come across as quite ugly.
...

Once again, ad hominem attacks to make (unsuccessfully) your point. I have not brought up morality in any of my posts except maybe in canned lion hunting. I think the only comment I may have made in the past that I recall was that one would better book Botswana hunts fast before the big tuskers are hunted out which might or might not be accurate. Also, an experience and passion can be referred as being addictive. I will also admit to being an adrenaline junkie as long as my body held together in the past.

To be honest, I have never cared about an outsider's perspective. I don't live my life seeking approval from strangers let alone friends and family. I just live my life according to my rules and beliefs and let the chips fall where they may.

 

[BRICKBURN]

Yes, you bring up an interesting topic. Some people (hunters), even on this forum, believe that somehow the big elephants in Botswana will gradually disappear due to the reopening of hunting...

3. Why would this suddenly just stop?

Not "suddenly", but the change has and will happen.

Rowland Ward reduced the trophy size for Buffalo and Elephant. 44 inches, 100 pounds a side.... because?

From your gallery. Incredible trophy (ca. 1973 Buffalo.) There are plenty of these in breeding paddocks in RSA, not so many in the "wild" anymore.

Apparently there used to be herds of Elephants like this and the space required for them to survive.
Not so much anymore.

Projected 50% increase in human population in Botswana. Another million people in the next 25 years does not bode well.

When the question includes "better", the inevitable

 

[WAB]

Yes, you bring up an interesting topic. Some people (hunters), even on this forum, believe that somehow the big elephants in Botswana will gradually disappear due to the reopening of hunting...

1. Johan and his outfit for the past 20-something years have had a consistent percentage of heavy ivory being taken annually.
2. As the years went by, more and more 90-pounders have been taken.
3. Why would this suddenly just stop?
4. If @Tanks seriously believed that big elephants would eventually be weeded out, it's interesting how he (morally) still had no problem booking a hunt with Johan, even with that (highly incorrect) piece of information at the back of his conscience.

Not to make any accusations, but that, to me, calls into question his hunting ethics. In the past, he's consistently stated that elephant hunting is "addictive" and not a passion and/or great experience. From an outsider's perspective that can come across as quite ugly.

Johan Calitz mainly specializes in big elephants but whenever someone might bring up the topic of elephant hunting, he never refers to the practice like it's just a hobby of his. He takes a great amount of pride in hunting the big bulls and you can immediately see the enthusiasm emanating from him. There's no smugness whatsoever...

There is another outcome you are not considering, education. My friends in Bots wanted me there quickly after the reopening, not because there was any concern that the big bulls would be harvested, but that they would quickly become educated and move out of the hunting concessions. Photo safari ops have pushed hunting out of prime areas into the thorn scrub. There are plenty of elephant in the thorn scrub, but those truly big bulls quickly figure out what’s what. If you want an eye opening experience, spend a week or so camping through the parks of Northern Botswana. The old bulls you will see are truly amazing.

 

[PhotoCollector73]

Not "suddenly", but the change has and will happen.

According to whom? The evidence provided for the decrease in the presence of big elephants only concerns the fact of game movement. No actual decline in trophy quality.

From your gallery. Incredible trophy (ca. 1973 Buffalo.) There are plenty of these in breeding paddocks in RSA, not so many in the "wild" anymore.

Uh... okay? What made you think that I thought specimens like these are just as common today? I'm well aware of the decrease in trophy quality for many species. Your point is falling on deaf ears as I never tried to claim that the 'good ole days' were still around. Unless you're trying to impress me with facts and statistics? Because I already knew.

Apparently there used to be herds of Elephants like this and the space required for them to survive.
Not so much anymore.

Funny considering SV Safaris posted a picture of a very similar-sized herd of elephants on their Instagram page in 2021. Large gatherings like those were never common. You're reminiscing about something that was never a regularity in the first place. And I wouldn't take the word of past adventures so literally. They, more often than not, indulged in fantasy to sell their books. A lot of it is a fairy tale.

Projected 50% increase in human population in Botswana. Another million people in the next 25 years does not bode

It could take 58 years for Botswana to double population, census results show | News24

It will likely take Botswana 58 years to double its population from the current 2 346 179 estimated from the recently held census, Statistics Botswana says.

www.news24.com

Redirecting to: /countries/botswana

Are you seriously trying to imply that minimal (comparatively speaking) growth in one of the most sparsely populated countries on Earth is somehow wrong? Yes, animal populations inevitably feel the effect of human growth. The exact same thing can be said for North America. But I guess that doesn't count because you happen to live there? In a magical realm we could dream of human populations just coming to a halt worldwide, but that isn't realistic at all.

Honestly, the amount of talk of human population explosion in Africa on this forum is suspect, to say the least. It often pops up in conversations where it isn't relevant at all and the whole mood changes. Me thinks it's more the kind of people that you're worried about, not the actual amount.

Just as an FYI, you, as a foreigner, are merely a guest when you visit Africa. You are not a BBC reporter and analyst. While you might make personal friendships with some people here, don't kid yourself into thinking that you're some kind of authority of what goes on here. We appreciate you visiting here though, so there's that.

 

[375Fox]

Are you seriously trying to imply that minimal (comparatively speaking) growth in one of the most sparsely populated countries on Earth is somehow wrong? Yes, animal populations inevitably feel the effect of human growth. The exact same thing can be said for North America. But I guess that doesn't count because you happen to live there? In a magical realm we could dream of human populations just coming to a halt worldwide, but that isn't realistic at all.

Honestly, the amount of talk of human population explosion in Africa on this forum is suspect, to say the least. It often pops up in conversations where it isn't relevant at all and the whole mood changes. Me thinks it's more the kind of people that you're worried about, not the actual amount.

Just as an FYI, you, as a foreigner, are merely a guest when you visit Africa. You are not a BBC reporter and analyst. While you might make personal friendships with some people here, don't kid yourself into thinking that you're some kind of authority of what goes on here. We appreciate you visiting here though, so there's that.

The statistics are very easy to find. You can accuse (imply) us of being racists, but everyone who cares about wildlife should be concerned about rapid population growth in Africa. Population growth brings additional pressure on land in form of poaching, cattle, minerals, timber, etc. We talk all the time amongst ourselves in USA where old hunting spots have been ruined by development. However, our game populations are stable or increasing in spite of population growth. Our game departments do good job and rules are enforced and followed. As human populations increase in Africa game suffers and wild areas decline, simple fact. Outfitters do more to protect areas than governments in Africa. I’m not sure where you are going with this unless you’d like all animals to be behind a fence? I think that’s a sad day when that’s all that exists.

Mozambique

zimbabwe

South Africa

United states

 

[PhotoCollector73]

You can accuse (imply) us of being racists

Not racist, but highly biased and hypocritical. Decades (if not centuries) of social conditioning in Europe and North America have created a collective mindset of Africa being too stupid and incompetent to care for itself, and therefore it receives an incredibly heavy dose of criticism as if we don't already know what's going on here.

but everyone who cares about wildlife should be concerned about rapid population growth in Africa.

As am I. But to say that this issue of human population explosion is universal across Africa is hilariously out of touch. Especially if it's concerning Botswana, a literal wasteland of mostly inhospitable wilderness.

Our game departments do good job and rules are enforced and followed.

And you think ours don't? We're extremely lucky that some African countries' game departments even consider the opinions of outsiders to begin with. They could simply go the route of Latin America and India and just do whatever the hell they want. Most have, but the few who do listen shouldn't be chastised. Lectures never work, only cooperation. And cooperation invariably means that compromises have to be made in some areas. That's just the way it is.

As human populations increase in Africa game suffers and wild areas decline, simple fact.

Like I don't already know that. Geez...

I’m not sure where you are going with this

I'm being completely frank when I say that you guys are far from experts when it comes to wildlife conservation in Africa. A lot of you seem genuinely oblivious as to how condescending and naive you come across when you constantly rave about "the 1.5 billion Africans." Listen, dude, we know that already. There are measures being put in place to combat that. If you genuinely believe that our efforts to protect our wildlife are fruitless then why should we even bother?

you’d like all animals to be behind a fence?

...no?

I think that’s a sad day when that’s all that exists.

Completely agree.

Mozambique

Explain to me how Mozambique is at all relevant to Botswana. I provided the actual, analysis-based predictions for human population growth in Botswana until the 22nd century but you're completely ignoring it in favour of your own opinion.

 

[VertigoBE]

According to whom? The evidence provided for the decrease in the presence of big elephants only concerns the fact of game movement. No actual decline in trophy quality.

Uh... okay? What made you think that I thought specimens like these are just as common today? I'm well aware of the decrease in trophy quality for many species. Your point is falling on deaf ears as I never tried to claim that the 'good ole days' were still around. Unless you're trying to impress me with facts and statistics? Because I already knew.

Funny considering SV Safaris posted a picture of a very similar-sized herd of elephants on their Instagram page in 2021. Large gatherings like those were never common. You're reminiscing about something that was never a regularity in the first place. And I wouldn't take the word of past adventures so literally. They, more often than not, indulged in fantasy to sell their books. A lot of it is a fairy tale.

It could take 58 years for Botswana to double population, census results show | News24

It will likely take Botswana 58 years to double its population from the current 2 346 179 estimated from the recently held census, Statistics Botswana says.

www.news24.com

Redirecting to: /countries/botswana

Are you seriously trying to imply that minimal (comparatively speaking) growth in one of the most sparsely populated countries on Earth is somehow wrong? Yes, animal populations inevitably feel the effect of human growth. The exact same thing can be said for North America. But I guess that doesn't count because you happen to live there? In a magical realm we could dream of human populations just coming to a halt worldwide, but that isn't realistic at all.

Honestly, the amount of talk of human population explosion in Africa on this forum is suspect, to say the least. It often pops up in conversations where it isn't relevant at all and the whole mood changes. Me thinks it's more the kind of people that you're worried about, not the actual amount.

Just as an FYI, you, as a foreigner, are merely a guest when you visit Africa. You are not a BBC reporter and analyst. While you might make personal friendships with some people here, don't kid yourself into thinking that you're some kind of authority of what goes on here. We appreciate you visiting here though, so there's that.

You have just lost any remaining respect that was still lingering from your original posts.

 

[PhotoCollector73]

You have just lost any remaining respect that was still lingering from your original posts.

Do I even know you? No. And BTW, you are but one person with maybe a handful of others. If you don't like me then so be it. Cry me a river.

 

[375Fox]

And you think ours don't? We're extremely lucky that some African countries' game departments even consider the opinions of outsiders to begin with. They could simply go the route of Latin America and India and just do whatever the hell they want. Most have, but the few who do listen shouldn't be chastised. Lectures never work, only cooperation. And cooperation invariably means that compromises have to be made in some areas. That's just the way it is.

No. The best wild areas aren’t the best because of African governments it’s because hunting outfitters poured money into them to make and keep them that way. It’s no different in South Africa, your game farms don’t hold huge amounts of animals because of your government. It’s because of private ownership. South Africa, Namibia, Botswana national parks stand out because of the amount of tourism money. The rest on continent, national parks that are well managed receive private funding. Opinions from North America and Europe are considered because our money is valuable, be glad, your countries still have large amounts of wildlife because of it.

 

[Scott CWO]

Yes, you bring up an interesting topic. Some people (hunters), even on this forum, believe that somehow the big elephants in Botswana will gradually disappear due to the reopening of hunting...

1. Johan and his outfit for the past 20-something years have had a consistent percentage of heavy ivory being taken annually.
2. As the years went by, more and more 90-pounders have been taken.
3. Why would this suddenly just stop?
4. If @Tanks seriously believed that big elephants would eventually be weeded out, it's interesting how he (morally) still had no problem booking a hunt with Johan, even with that (highly incorrect) piece of information at the back of his conscience.

Not to make any accusations, but that, to me, calls into question his hunting ethics. In the past, he's consistently stated that elephant hunting is "addictive" and not a passion and/or great experience. From an outsider's perspective that can come across as quite ugly.

Johan Calitz mainly specializes in big elephants but whenever someone might bring up the topic of elephant hunting, he never refers to the practice like it's just a hobby of his. He takes a great amount of pride in hunting the big bulls and you can immediately see the enthusiasm emanating from him. There's no smugness whatsoever...

You make some good points.

In addition, much of the Okavango Delta is now in the hands of operators that only conduct photo safaris and Johan doesn’t see that changing. This situation should maintain good numbers of big tuskers going forward and some of those big bulls will travel into huntable areas. Elephant travel huge distances and this is a part of their behavior.

I agree with your assessment of Johan. Elephants are respected by him and he takes great pride in hunting them ethically and sustainably.

However, I must disagree with your assumptions about @Tanks. I believe he, like Johan, really enjoys elephant hunting and has a passion for it. I would offer that you have misinterpreted his use of the word addictive. I think it is passion. He’s a good man and I only disagreed with his reasoning about Johan’s pricing and future numbers of big bulls.

 

[PhotoCollector73]

No. The best wild areas aren’t the best because of African governments it’s because hunting outfitters poured money into them to make and keep them that way.

Interesting how you conflated my statement about game departments with governments... That's a huge leap but I guess you just have to be at the top of the conversation, eh? The fact that outfitters are even allowed to do their business in some African countries is a blessing in and of itself. Outfitting directly challenges development and expansion but it's given handouts during times of uncertainty, just because the game departments are open-minded enough to hear them out. African countries are not highly centralized dictatorships, at least where hunting occurs. If that were the case then we wouldn't even have hunting there, to begin with.

It’s no different in South Africa, your game farms don’t hold huge amounts of animals because of your government. It’s because of private ownership. South Africa, Namibia, Botswana national parks stand out because of the amount of tourism money.

Yup.

Opinions from North America and Europe are considered because your countries want/need our money,

Do the intentions matter here or are the results more important? Unless you're a political revolutionary, it should be the latter but I think your emotions are now starting to rear their head in the discussion...

be glad your countries still have large amounts of wildlife because of it.

Yes, your highness. What would you like your boots to be polished with, may I ask?

See, this is what I was referring to in regards to a lot of the condescending statements made about Africa. I do genuinely appreciate that you're spending your money here to help with our wildlife conservation efforts, but that kind of behaviour is honestly disgusting.

 

[Tanks]

Do I even know you? No. And BTW, you are but one person with maybe a handful of others. If you don't like me then so be it. Cry me a river.

You joined this site just two weeks ago and seem to enjoy trolling. No one knows you either. At this point there doesn't seem to be any informative posts from you contributing to hunting per se.

 

[PhotoCollector73]

You make some good points.

In addition, much of the Okavango Delta is now in the hands of operators that only conduct photo safaris and Johan doesn’t see that changing. This situation should maintain good numbers of big tuskers going forward and some of those big bulls will travel into huntable areas. Elephant travel huge distances and this is a part of their behavior.

I agree with your assessment of Johan. Elephants are respected by him and he takes great pride in hunting them ethically and sustainably.

However, I must disagree with your assumptions about @Tanks. I believe he, like Johan, really enjoys elephant hunting and has a passion for it. I would offer that you have misinterpreted his use of the word addictive. I think it is passion. He’s a good man and I only disagreed with his reasoning about Johan’s pricing and future numbers of big bulls.

Fair enough. I guess I just got too invested in the conversation and my curiosity got the better of me. My apologies.

 

[PhotoCollector73]

You joined this site just two weeks ago and seem to enjoy trolling. No one knows you either. At this point there doesn't seem to be any informative posts from you contributing to hunting per se.

If you can't handle the heat, get out of the kitchen. I don't know you or have any vendetta against you but I'm allowed to voice my opinion. Ignore it if you don't like it... Also, trolling? Lol, okay...

That said, I will retract my statements concerning your hunting ethics. Again, I got too invested in the conversation.

 

[Scott CWO]

Not "suddenly", but the change has and will happen.

Rowland Ward reduced the trophy size for Buffalo and Elephant. 44 inches, 100 pounds a side.... because?

From your gallery. Incredible trophy (ca. 1973 Buffalo.) There are plenty of these in breeding paddocks in RSA, not so many in the "wild" anymore.
View attachment 517138


Apparently there used to be herds of Elephants like this and the space required for them to survive.
Not so much anymore.
View attachment 517140

Projected 50% increase in human population in Botswana. Another million people in the next 25 years does not bode well.

When the question includes "better", the inevitable

Due to the dynamics in Botswana, I would respectfully disagree. As I mentioned in another post, the Okavango Delta is not under much hunting pressure and most areas will likely never again be hunted due to the firm grip of the photographic outfitters. Maun is very close to the delta and makes photo safaris viable, unlike in many other areas of Africa. This should keep the numbers of big tuskers high going forward and human settlements are not allowed in these areas. Botswana’s population growth will mainly happen closer to Gabarone. Botswana is a rich country when compared to other African countries. It’s dynamics are a bit different. The government has also shown a bigger commitment to wildlife resources than many other countries.

 

[Scott CWO]

There is another outcome you are not considering, education. My friends in Bots wanted me there quickly after the reopening, not because there was any concern that the big bulls would be harvested, but that they would quickly become educated and move out of the hunting concessions. Photo safari ops have pushed hunting out of prime areas into the thorn scrub. There are plenty of elephant in the thorn scrub, but those truly big bulls quickly figure out what’s what. If you want an eye opening experience, spend a week or so camping through the parks of Northern Botswana. The old bulls you will see are truly amazing.

This could be a developing issue but so far, this has not been shown across the board. Time will tell. It will also depend on the area and how much unhuntable land each area borders and how much hunting pressure the outfitters apply.