High end bolt vs low end double

[Warbeast]

As much as i like doubles.
A fine Bolt Action is hard to beat.

For 10k you even can get a fine take down model
So packing and traveling is also easy.

 

[HankBuck]

hmmm,

trying to operate a gun while running from DG does not seem like a good plan. my experience has led me to stand my ground and quickly reload. its hard for me to shoot while running.

@dirthawker Agree, also as most know (expect one) a SxS (double Rifle or shotgun) reloads much easier then an OU because the barrels don’t need to open/drop as far to allow full access to both chambers. With practice, some can load 2 cartridges into a SxS impressively fast and be ready to Fire - FASTER then 2 rounds into a bolt action. Of course to be able to do that you need to practice with a Double Rifle and Not just Look at or read-about-them.

 

[Bonk]

I think this year I’ll use my 9.3x62 O/U double rifle to mix it up a little bit.

I posted this on Saturday and I need to proof read my posts a little better. My O/U is a 9.3x74R not a 9.3x62.

 

[Troubleshooter]

Eternal discussion, but some are for so fixated on the double rifles that they are hard to convince that they are using absolutely obsolete rifles and that they have to adapt their hunting to their rifles if they want to are successful in all cases.

By that reasoning, I should throw away my single-shot rifles as "obsolete." But I won't, because they are superbly accurate and I just plain enjoy hunting with them. More so than my bolt-actions, I might add. Sure, I have to adjust my hunting technique somewhat. But that's part of the challenge and the enjoyment derived therefrom.

As an aside, there is a separate hunting season in many places for "muzzleloader only" or sometimes called "primitive weapons" season. Those of my friends who hunt that season use cap-lock rifles, but I prefer a flintlock. I suppose that by your reasoning, I should only use a modern "inline" muzzleloader, built on a bolt-action receiver and using a #209 shotgun primer. No thanks, not for me.

You only have two shots and reloading quickly a double rifle is not easy, especially the heavy big bores.

Oh horse-feathers! If you grew up using a double shotgun then the reloading process becomes second nature. Same as when people argue about the supposed "difficulty" of adapting to two triggers on a SxS (rifle or shotgun). I will grant that there is an associated learning curve if the hunter has never used one, but that applies equally to any other mechanism (bolt, semi-auto, etc.).

One of the reasons I’m so interested in a DR is that I’ve shot so many thousands of rounds through a SxS shotgun. A double just jumps to my shoulder. In a dangerous situation I’m confident that muscle memory would be helpful.

Shotgun shooting is a high volume game. I doubt many people have put as many rounds through a bolt rifle as I have a SxS shotgun. And all of those were swing mount shoot not from a bench.

Agree completely. Familiarity and repetition breeds success.

If you want a double, and can afford a double, just get one.

And that's the bottom line. If you already have a capable bolt-action rifle, and can afford a quality double, why not buy it? Don't know about you, but the money in my bank account was put there as a result of the sweat of my brow; why shouldn't I have the opportunity to enjoy it as I see fit? Just be aware of the fine-points in purchasing a double.

 

[Tanks]

You assume too much. I have fired an expensive double rifle ... twice, many years ago after a Montana gun show. And that was enough. Not impressed.

And I played the piano in a high school music class...at least twice. The noise that came out of it was horrible; I was not impressed.

 

[Warbeast]

Some stuff just wont make a tingling to some people.

 

[HankBuck]

And I played the piano in a high school music class...at least twice. The noise that came out of it was horrible; I was not impressed.

@Tanks - so playing Piano twice in High School doesn’t get You into Carnegie Hall?
Does that mean holding and firing a Double rifle “twice” doesn’t mean you’re an Expert? But, you can still “Claim” to be a Concert Pianist AND and an expert on Double Rifles !!

 

[Ontario Hunter]

hmmm,

trying to operate a gun while running from DG does not seem like a good plan. my experience has led me to stand my ground and quickly reload. its hard for me to shoot while running.

That would be my choice too. But I've seen a few videos of PHs running from very close encounter after emptying both barrels. It happens. I'll stand my ground ... till there's no ground or ammo left. Then I'll reload on the run. Or perhaps you would prefer to stand there and use your empty gun as a club.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

If you are doing $15K hunts, then you are not hunting in RSA game farms mostly and do not really need a double for sure. Free range DG hunts, the cost of the rifle is not a big factor, especially if you use the rifle on multiple hunts. On my Heym 88B double per hunt cost of it is less than a charter flight at this point.

My PH has commented more than once that the concensus seems to be the RSA "game farm" buffalo are much more cranky than the "wild" variety. My experience confirmed they can indeed be dangerous. After I dropped granny the herd bull came for us three times and the rest followed. Fortunately, her death bellows called them back twice and the third time the herd wouldn't go along so he gave up. I was very thankful we had 100 meters between us. Then he went after the lodge owner's new truck when the tracker brought it out to load her up. That guy wasn't much help as a tracker but he could drive like Mario Andretti!

Me = humble refugee from unwashed masses who spot and stalks "game farms" in RSA
Tanks = noble sportsman who chases bear up a tree with dogs and shoots it.

 

[Wyatt Smith]

For me it would be a magazine rifle, I probably won’t be able to afford a proper double so I won’t worry about it.
I’ve only handled one double rifle, @rookhawk heym. With the scope removed it handled like fine shotgun.
While I see the merit of double rifles, I wouldn’t feel handicapped by a magazine rifle, when well practiced, working the bolt doesn’t take much time, and you have the added advantage of the extra ammo.

 

[Longfeather1]

I guess I'm going both ways, maybe? Currently running a Krieghoff double and a Sauer 404 bolt in a two-barrel set. Not sure if either one is really high end or bottom tier. Both are special to me though.

Bought the K-gun new at an SCI show in Reno and bought the Sauer new a few years later at another show in Vegas. Best of both worlds me thinks. Made payments on Krieghoff and sold off some safe queens for the Sauer.

The Sauer is the anything anywhere gun (respective of the barrel mounted at the time) and the K-gun is for the up close and personal encounters with those critters that can bite back.

 

[Tanks]

Me = humble refugee from unwashed masses who spot and stalks "game farms" in RSA
Tanks = noble sportsman who chases bear up a tree with dogs and shoots it.

Hey now, the video of that bear and dogs have 38 million views on YouTube. The masses like it.

Speaking of hunting with dogs, the best one I had was getting dressed in black hunting gear and going on a fox hunt with hounds in England. It was a lot of fun each time. It is too bad that it is outlawed now, would have loved to have my grandkids have the same experience.

In case you don't know what I am talking about, here is a documentary.

 

[Altitude sickness]

Tanks, we don’t have hundreds of year old clubs. But we do have Fox hunting clubs in the English tradition near by.

Metamora hunt is near several Bird hunting clubs that I have hunted often. We used to have business meetings at the Huntsman. And would take ours wife’s to dinner there. Luckily I would be invited by several members.

I’m assuming they compliment each other. One sets out a lot of Fox food. And the other chases fox.

Welcome to The Hunt

www.metamorahunt.com

Home - The Huntsman Hunt Club

Huntsman Hunt Club

www.thehuntsmanhuntclub.com

 

[HankBuck]

My PH has commented more than once that the concensus seems to be the RSA "game farm" buffalo are much more cranky than the "wild" variety. My experience confirmed they can indeed be dangerous. After I dropped granny the herd bull came for us three times and the rest followed. Fortunately, her death bellows called them back twice and the third time the herd wouldn't go along so he gave up. I was very thankful we had 100 meters between us. Then he went after the lodge owner's new truck when the tracker brought it out to load her up. That guy wasn't much help as a tracker but he could drive like Mario Andretti!

Me = humble refugee from unwashed masses who spot and stalks "game farms" in RSA
Tanks = noble sportsman who chases bear up a tree with dogs and shoots it.

@Ontario Hunter - what else would You expect an RSA operator to tell you about their high fence Buffalo - they’re “Tame? easier then real Buffalo? No idea where they might be today but we’ll start off In-the-Fence and hope we get lucky???” Or would they say: “for a real Buffalo hunt - best you go to a Free Range Area”? Everyone should legally hunt where and how they like, no issues with high fence or captive bred & released but critiquing others hunting style & preferences is ‘Bad Form’…even by your standards. Just accept you know Less then many on this form and show occasionally you are capable of learning something New.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

@Ontario Hunter - what else would You expect an RSA operator to tell you about their high fence Buffalo - they’re “Tame? easier then real Buffalo? No idea where they might be today but we’ll start off In-the-Fence and hope we get lucky???” Or would they say: “for a real Buffalo hunt - best you go to a Free Range Area”? Everyone should legally hunt where and how they like, no issues with high fence or captive bred & released but critiquing others hunting style & preferences is ‘Bad Form’…even by your standards. Just accept you know Less then many on this form and show occasionally you are capable of learning something New.

Perhaps it is you who is unwilling to learn something new. The ferocity of RSA fenced buffalo was discussed on this forum not long ago by others more "in the know" than me. A couple of theories were tossed around. I wasn't particularly keen on culling my first buffalo because I unknowingly assumed it would be domesticated if it was being used for breeding purposes. PH and lodge operator both chuckled: "You don't understand. Buffalo, no matter where they are, do NOT like people." That became evident looking at the ranch truck that came out to decoy the herd away from our truck so we could load up my buffalo. That rig was smashed up end to end. I recall a nasty hole in the driver's door and wondering if someone got hurt.

Some pompous arse repeatedly takes pokes at my style of hunting, he can expect his style of shooting (blasting a bear in a tree hardly classifies as hunting) to be similarly scrutinized. I think I've been plenty tolerant of his abuse.

Back to the subject of the thread. I would never be interested in a double rifle, no matter the cost. Neither am I interested in a high end bolt action. The former is impractical and, for dangerous game, not nearly as safe to operate. No one will ever convince me a third or fourth round can be brought into play as quickly and safely using a double rifle. The gun must be dismounted and broken open. Then the shooter's eyes have to leave the gun to guide his hand to ammo (after hand leaves the gun entirely). Then the ammo must be safely dislodged from carrier presumably at the waist. Then eyes and hand have to guide two rounds into the chamber (hopefully without dropping one or both cartridges). Then the rifle must be closed and remounted. That's just way too many "thens." I can (though I never do) keep my bolt action shouldered while I cycle in followup rounds. My eyes remain on the incoming target. My right hand only momentarily leaves the gun in the very short distance between the pistol grip and bolt handle and back again. The chief safety features of bolt vs double rifle are 1) more than two rounds are available in the gun without reloading; 2) ammo does not have to be handled to reload (and possibly dropped); 3) the bolt rifle does not have to be dismounted and remounted to reload and most importantly, to me anyway 4) the eyes remain on the animal while the gun is being reloaded. The double rifle has only one POTENTIAL advantage: rapid firing two rounds (hopefully not simultaneous!). As far as I can see the potential advantages of a bolt action easily outnumber the double rifle (4 to 1). Do I have to hunt with a double rifle to appreciate the disadvantages? No. It's a matter of physical requirements necessary to make it work vs bolt action. Anyone can see it. Anyone who wants to see. But some, indeed many, are blinded by the "cool" factor. And that's okay. But I'm a practical man who fixes his own cars and guns. Cool is way down on my list.

 

[rookhawk]

Some pompous arse repeatedly takes pokes at my style of hunting, he can expect his style of shooting (blasting a bear in a tree hardly classifies as hunting) to be similarly scrutinized. I think I've been plenty tolerant of his abuse.

I think you completely misread the room almost every post. It's that your standards of quality, proficiency, excellence, etc are deemed by you the pinnacle. It shows lack of self awareness.

I have no problem admitting when I cut a corner, don't own the best gun, didn't hunt an animal at the pinnacle of "highest form possible", etc. A healthy amount of self-deprecation is useful and can be endearing to others, I never read that from you.

My best friends on this forum and I speed dial each other when we do the stupidest thing each week. Talented people love to share when their poor life's decisions should serve as a humorous warning to others.

It can be absolutely trivial things, but I'll give you an example or two that cause a lot of eye rolling. I've spent hundreds of hours collecting, installing, importing, and restoring a variety of sling swivels. You might say in that silly little niche, I'm a journeyman of the craft. I wrote a small article on this forum trying to explain to members that own a variety of vintage and best guns what these swivels are and which ones are correct for their rifle, a common problem when people can't understand why things don't go together properly. You posted on that thread some nonsensical stuff about how your uncle mikes swivels are the best, completely missing the nuance of why all these swivels exist (you don't own them) and how each fits a variety of vintage and best guns (you don't own those either). Your 2 minutes of lifetime expertise dedicated to that topic somehow warranted parity with mine and others, you instead brought the conversation down to your rifles as an example of excellence. The same story for discussions on a variety of gun cases with a very similar outcome. We've had threads discussing wilderness area DG hunting and you bring up your RSA high-fence experiences to convince others (yourself?) that there is equivalency. When your ears are pinned to the carpet on any of these topics, you then attempt to berate others with class warfare tripes as though wealth and knowledge are some how the same thing.

That's the frustration. I'm not the richest. I'm not the prettiest. I'm not the best. I don't own the nicest rifles. I'm not the most qualified gun fitter on the planet. I'm not the best gunsmith on the planet. I'm not the best handloader on the planet. The difference is I know my strengths and weaknesses and I can perceive excellence and superiority to myself in people, things, skills, and experiences. I'm not the best, I'm still learning, I'm willing to share with qualifications and limitations to my knowledge on a given topic. I wish you'd see yourself in the same light, listening rather than preaching in the face of superior expertise that abounds on this forum.

 

[rookhawk]

AI has summarized this entire thread perfectly:

Which is better for dangerous game hunting, a double rifle or a bolt action rifle?
For dangerous game hunting,
a double rifle offers the fastest second shot, while a bolt-action rifle provides more rounds and greater long-range accuracy. The better choice depends on the hunting scenario and a hunter's specific needs.

Double rifle: Speed and reliability in close quarters
The double rifle is a traditional favorite for dangerous game, especially for professional hunters working in thick bush where encounters are at very close range.
Advantages:

• Instant second shot: The primary advantage is the ability to fire a second aimed shot almost instantly by pulling the second trigger, without having to cycle an action. This is a critical, life-saving feature if your first shot fails to stop a charging animal.
• Ultimate reliability: Having two independent locks and firing pins means that if one barrel's system fails, the other is still functional. The simple break-open action is robust and less prone to jamming than a repeating action in adverse conditions.
• Superior handling: Double rifles are typically shorter and balance exceptionally well, allowing for quick, natural pointing at a fast-moving, close-range target.
• Powerful cartridges: Double rifles are chambered for massive, powerful cartridges, such as the .470 Nitro Express, that are highly effective at stopping large, dangerous animals.

Disadvantages:

• High cost: Quality double rifles are extremely expensive, with prices often in the tens of thousands of dollars.
• Limited capacity: They only hold two rounds, and reloading for a third shot is significantly slower than with a bolt-action rifle.
• Less accurate long-range: The barrels of a double rifle are regulated to shoot to the same point of impact at a specific, close distance (e.g., 60 yards). Past this distance, the point of impact from each barrel begins to diverge.
• Fickle with ammunition: Some double rifles are finicky about ammunition and may only shoot accurately with a specific load for which they were regulated.

Bolt-action rifle: Versatility and precision
For most hunters today, the bolt-action rifle is the more practical and versatile choice for dangerous game hunting.
Advantages:

• Superior accuracy: The rigid single barrel and bolt-action design make these rifles inherently more accurate over longer ranges compared to double rifles.
• Higher capacity: Bolt-action magazines typically hold three to five rounds, providing multiple follow-up shots before needing to reload.
• Broader cartridge selection: Bolt-actions are chambered for a wider variety of powerful, modern dangerous game cartridges, like the .375 H&H and .416 Rigby.
• Affordability: A high-quality bolt-action rifle is significantly less expensive than a comparable double rifle.
• Durability and reliability: Modern bolt-actions with controlled-round feeding are extremely reliable and rugged. If a malfunction occurs, it can often be cleared quickly.

Disadvantages:

• Slower second shot: A bolt-action's rate of fire is limited by how quickly the shooter can cycle the bolt, which is slower than a double rifle's instant second shot. In a charge, this can be a fatal delay.
• Potential for user error: Under extreme stress, a hunter can "short-stroke" the bolt, causing a malfunction.

 

[AZDAVE]

You want to see how folks can develop the ability to reload a double on the run. Go watch the cowboy action shooters in competition. It can be done with double rifle of Both SxS and O/U. Take dedicated practice. Same thing with a bolt gun while moving. Takes some dedicated practice For the O/U I open the rifle or shotgun and then rotate the action in my hand so it is oriented in the SxS look. It is just a 1/4-1/2 second longer than SxS double.

People quote the old information on older era ivory hunters etc. When talking history you also need to take into account the different requirements that is totally different from a PH and a client hunting one specific animal today.

@Ontario Hunter Understand you have built some bolt guns and have shotguns that fit your requirements. That is to be respected. However when you discuss double rifles you have the experience of shooting one double rifle years ago for two shots. I have shot everything from POS remingtion Bakil 45/70 to a londons best rigby. Shoot 5-700 rounds a year out of doubles. so when you have shot 1500-2000 rounds in double you have a basis to make an informed comment on them. i just sold a high end 500 Jeffery bolt gun because when hunting DG I will almost always use a double.

Most folks are better served with a quality bolt gun that is absolutely reliable to hunt DG with.

No matter what platform you prefer to hunt with know its manual of arms inside and out! Make sure you practice the small motor skills alot before you go hunt.

 

[Lancaster]

In the UK that budget would get you a nice double, even an English made one with spare barrels like this: https://www.guntrader.uk/guns/rifle...ide/470-nitro-express/unknown-250402120109015

If you can get someone to export it from the UK to South Africa and then import it from South Africa to Zim then there's some great value to be had here

We had a similar conversation with our Zim PHs last year

 

[Ontario Hunter]

I think you completely misread the room almost every post. It's that your standards of quality, proficiency, excellence, etc are deemed by you the pinnacle. It shows lack of self awareness.

I have no problem admitting when I cut a corner, don't own the best gun, didn't hunt an animal at the pinnacle of "highest form possible", etc. A healthy amount of self-deprecation is useful and can be endearing to others, I never read that from you.

My best friends on this forum and I speed dial each other when we do the stupidest thing each week. Talented people love to share when their poor life's decisions should serve as a humorous warning to others.

It can be absolutely trivial things, but I'll give you an example or two that cause a lot of eye rolling. I've spent hundreds of hours collecting, installing, importing, and restoring a variety of sling swivels. You might say in that silly little niche, I'm a journeyman of the craft. I wrote a small article on this forum trying to explain to members that own a variety of vintage and best guns what these swivels are and which ones are correct for their rifle, a common problem when people can't understand why things don't go together properly. You posted on that thread some nonsensical stuff about how your uncle mikes swivels are the best, completely missing the nuance of why all these swivels exist (you don't own them) and how each fits a variety of vintage and best guns (you don't own those either). Your 2 minutes of lifetime expertise dedicated to that topic somehow warranted parity with mine and others, you instead brought the conversation down to your rifles as an example of excellence. The same story for discussions on a variety of gun cases with a very similar outcome. We've had threads discussing wilderness area DG hunting and you bring up your RSA high-fence experiences to convince others (yourself?) that there is equivalency. When your ears are pinned to the carpet on any of these topics, you then attempt to berate others with class warfare tripes as though wealth and knowledge are some how the same thing.

That's the frustration. I'm not the richest. I'm not the prettiest. I'm not the best. I don't own the nicest rifles. I'm not the most qualified gun fitter on the planet. I'm not the best gunsmith on the planet. I'm not the best handloader on the planet. The difference is I know my strengths and weaknesses and I can perceive excellence and superiority to myself in people, things, skills, and experiences. I'm not the best, I'm still learning, I'm willing to share with qualifications and limitations to my knowledge on a given topic. I wish you'd see yourself in the same light, listening rather than preaching in the face of superior expertise that abounds on this forum.

If you can find a thread where I claimed Uncle Mike's swivels are the best, please provide the link. They are crap and I've never said otherwise. Only thread I can recall discussing my swivels was these recently acquired Titan brand and they are NOT Uncle Mike's! Bought them to REPLACE Uncle Mike's! Can't say the Titans are the best because I haven't owned them long enough (but they can't be worse than Uncle Mike's). Others who have more experience with them chimed in positively.

Oh yes. I did start a thread asking about experiences with flush mount swivels (considering them for fore end of rifles [to avoid studs hanging up in sticks or bench rest] and butt of my shotgun (regular studs get caught in my vest when mounting the gun). Don't recall getting much response from you or anyone else.

I don't profess to be the most widely experienced African hunter but I have had good experiences hunting South Africa that have met or exceeded the quality of my extensive hunting experiences in North America. And I am not easily pleased. I do not appreciate some self-pontificating types deprecating those experiences simply because I don't worship their "wild" experiences or their point of view re expensive guns/gear. I'm entightled to express my opinion and they are entitled to theirs, however right or wrong our perceptions might be. The same old "you don't have enough experience with hunting 'wild' Africa or ultra expensive guns/clothing/gear to have a valid opinion" wears very thin. I'm sure a thousand dollar 3X beaver felt safari hat serves the purpose for some high end hunters but probably no better than the equally nice looking $20 crushable wool hat I bought at a Oakhurst grocery store sixteen years ago (though I'd never wear it on safari). But sorry, I will never be convinced, all factors weighed, that a double rifle is inherently safer than a bolt action for hunting dangerous game. It's simply a matter of physical mechanics required to make the two styles operate under duress and the comparative potential for failure. I'm sure as a double gun fan you like to think it's the best choice in every situation and that's fine. It may be important to justify the extraordinary expense ... or not. Go ahead and convince yourself. That's your right. But don't go throwing punches with low jabs like "you don't own one so you don't know" or "you don't hunt 'wild' Africa so your opinion isn't valid." I can see how a double rifle works ... and doesn't work. I have been hunting for more than sixty years almost entirely solo and in some very wild places. My guided hunt experience in those decades, outside of four safaris, was limited to one late fill-in with a group hunt for geese in Saskatchewan (very unsatisfactory). I'm not sure my limited experience with guided hunts really matters. Don't see why it should. Mechanics are mechanics. Is what it is. And in those sixty years I have survived some, indeed many, hair-raising dangerous situations: going through the ice, charged by animals (three times), extremely close encounters with grizzlies (almost daily at one job), lost in an unexpected blizzard, end over end on a horse falling down a mountain, and the first episode in 1971, essentially succumbing to hypothermia. All but most of the grizzly encounters were solo adventures. A guided dangeros game hunt in "wild" Africa seems to pale in comparison for "dangerous" factor. In my opinion anyway.