Gun safe recommendation

[Sabre]

They might not have solved your crimes.. but they solve A LOT, and in most departments theft of property of any sort is indeed a priority.. lots of money gets spent on training, equipment, and personnel… and lots of hours are spent on investigations..

If your crimes weren’t being solved, and other people’s crimes are… I’d be questioning why that is… there is clearly more to the story..

I think the argument for a safe and what level of safe to get is a lot of grey area and fairly individualized.

But you do seem to be taking a position of nothing you say is debatable. Which seems counterproductive and also, you are patently wrong about burglaries being solved "a lot" and theft being a high priority.

Clearance rates of burglaries according to FBI statistics are 13-14%. So it isn't just one guy saying "his burglary" wasn't solved.

At the same time, many places across the country are changing retail theft, property damage, and property theft laws to make it lighter on criminals and less of a priority to act. There are many places now where thieves aren't even arrested, just simply written a ticket if the dollar amount isn't $500+.

So, you can be as inflexible as you'd like, but you are wrong about some of these things.

 

[BJH65]

I think the argument for a safe and what level of safe to get is a lot of grey area and fairly individualized.

But you do seem to be taking a position of nothing you say is debatable. Which seems counterproductive and also, you are patently wrong about burglaries being solved "a lot" and theft being a high priority.

Clearance rates of burglaries according to FBI statistics are 13-14%. So it isn't just one guy saying "his burglary" wasn't solved.

At the same time, many places across the country are changing retail theft, property damage, and property theft laws to make it lighter on criminals and less of a priority to act. There are many places now where thieves aren't even arrested, just simply written a ticket if the dollar amount isn't $500+.

So, you can be as inflexible as you'd like, but you are wrong about some of these things.

I don’t disagree with much of what you say although at the time I worked our clearance rates where higher but that was a different era, before the advent of decriminalization of laws, decreased staffing, defunding movements, elimination of proactive police work, lack of criminal prosecution, activist DA’s, Mayors, etc. all of which are a political problem, no longer a policing problem, citizens get the the type of policing they vote for. My home state and where I spent my career, California is a case in point.

In California, I believe in many places certain crimes like burglary and theft aren’t being reported at all, perhaps further skewing the statistics. People tend not to report crimes when there is no prosecution and most agencies have online reporting primarily due to lack of resources to respond and for victims to file a report for insurance but many businesses in CA couldn’t afford it or no longer were insurable, you can only file so many claims. Again, voting has consequences.

Anyways, I apologize for derailing this thread. That’s why it may be more important than ever to have a decent safe, perhaps not just for fire protection and peace of mind but with the sheer number of criminals out and about these days, it’s a sound decision.

 

[HankBuck]

I think the argument for a safe and what level of safe to get is a lot of grey area and fairly individualized.

But you do seem to be taking a position of nothing you say is debatable. Which seems counterproductive and also, you are patently wrong about burglaries being solved "a lot" and theft being a high priority.

Clearance rates of burglaries according to FBI statistics are 13-14%. So it isn't just one guy saying "his burglary" wasn't solved.

At the same time, many places across the country are changing retail theft, property damage, and property theft laws to make it lighter on criminals and less of a priority to act. There are many places now where thieves aren't even arrested, just simply written a ticket if the dollar amount isn't $500+.

So, you can be as inflexible as you'd like, but you are wrong about some of these things.

@Sabre I agree with some of your observations and low level theft really is Worth-the-risk for the criminal because the penalty is minor. In NYC and San Francisco we had to close some stores because aggressive shoplifting affected the stores profit margin to the point it ran at a financial loss. When contract security guards & in-house loss prevention agents were hired — Shoplifters actually got caught and merchadise recovered “but” we we often unable to prosecute the offenders - Police would be called but refuse to arrest stating “you got the merchandise back”, occassionally a call into the Precint Sargent or Lieutenant would result in an arrest being made but not always and the Police were only following orders that came from the DA or Mayors office. San Francisco became our most problematic City in the Country by 2015 — replacing Manhattan. Some locations would catch the same shoplifter 2-3 times a day — like a Football game.

 

[Twraska]

It’s not that they don’t have access to tools…

It’s that they generally don’t carry them..

And.. as stated many times already… the guys that do pre plan, scope out, and prepare for burglaries do not regularly target typical middle income neighborhoods..

Again, it’s not that people should not have plans or prepare security for their valuables..

Generally speaking the best security plans involve layers and concentric rings.. no one single tool or item is a solution..

What has been said is that statistically the need for a pro grade safe for the typical middle income American family isn’t there…

The mitigation tool and technique doesn’t match the common threat.. and if money isn’t an object (not typically the case for a middle income family), then there are much better ways to spend that money to mitigate the threat…

If a guy making $110k a year living in the suburbs in a 3000 sq foot house in a subdivision of similar homes wants to spend 15% of his gross annual income on a safe, by all means, do so… that’s the beautiful thing about this country, you can spend your money pretty much any way you like..

That said, if the intent to thwart the most common and prevalent security threat to your firearms (we aren’t talking about fires and other threats), a $2000 canon or liberty or Winchester will accomplish the same task…

If you’re really worried about thieves that would purposefully target your home, case it out, come prepared with tools, etc.. you’re far better served investing in reinforced external doors, break resistant glass in your windows, high grade locks like medeco (and their primary competitors), high grade alarm systems, quality camera/surveillance equipment, etc..

That’s the sort of defense you’ll find in high net worth family homes..

Which by the way, all combined, won’t cost you as much as many pro grade safes…

Again.. this is not advocating against pro grade safes…

It’s simply putting the fact out there that the additional cost associated WAY outweighs the benefit (from a theft perspective) for the overwhelming majority of middle income Americans..

I’m not arguing with you about the cost vs benefits of a safe or quality of such….. only repeating what the cops told me when we were burglarized. Basically he said to put enough lock and chain on our gates so a concealed bolt cutter wouldn’t cut them and if they wanted in, the grinder was their tool of choice as they could kinda hide it vs a 4’ bolt cutter.

 

[mdwest]

We are in agreement on locks and chains…

That’s back to the layered and concentric rings of security concept..

The point of rings and layers is to make you unattractive as a target.. at the end of the day, most criminals are lazy… they’d rather make a quick buck and gain from someone else’s loss than to actually work for a living… if they were interested in working hard for their money they’d get jobs..

Thieves that have been interviewed and studies that have been conducted show that most burglars will do a tertiary casing of a target… if the target looks “hard”, they’ll move on to the next target…

But alarm signs in clear view from the street and put alarm company stickers on ground floor windows.. leave a big dog bowl by the back door (which tells them there is a big dog inside if he’s not in the back yard when they’re checking things out…)… put a decent lock on your gate… have a ring camera mounted in plain view watching the garage and the front and back doors…

These things will thwart 10x more criminals than any safe…

The safe is the most internal ring of security (for possessions)…

You don’t have to worry about a $15k safe vs a $2k safe if homie isn’t coming into your house in the first place…

 

[mdwest]

But you do seem to be taking a position of nothing you say is debatable. Which seems counterproductive and also, you are patently wrong about burglaries being solved "a lot" and theft being a high priority.

Clearance rates of burglaries according to FBI statistics are 13-14%. So it isn't just one guy saying "his burglary" wasn't solved.

No one has said the topic isn’t up for debate..

What’s been delivered are facts… and unsubstantiated opinions have been discounted…

13-14% of all burglaries is indeed a very high number when you look at the number of burglaries committed..

More importantly… what kind of burglary are we talking about…

Again, generally speaking, pros rarely if ever burglarize middle income houses…

And amateurs generally speaking lack the skills, knowledge, and abilities to defeat common safes like a liberty, canon, Winchester, etc…

If we are talking about crackheads stealing window units from old lady’s houses in the ghetto… you’re absolutely right… few of those are caught unless they are caught in the act…

If you’re talking people breaking into middle income houses, breaking into a safe, and stealing firearms.. that happens so infrequently that it is almost a rarity…

All burglaries are not the same thing… which has been the point all along…

The security measures taken by the Smithsonian aren’t the same as taken by the average millionaire which are not the same as a middle income family…

The threats aren’t the same.. because what is being protected isn’t the same… which means the people interested in taking those things (the threat) aren’t the same…

 

[HankBuck]

We are in agreement on locks and chains…

That’s back to the layered and concentric rings of security concept..

The point of rings and layers is to make you unattractive as a target.. at the end of the day, most criminals are lazy… they’d rather make a quick buck and gain from someone else’s loss than to actually work for a living… if they were interested in working hard for their money they’d get jobs..

Thieves that have been interviewed and studies that have been conducted show that most burglars will do a tertiary casing of a target… if the target looks “hard”, they’ll move on to the next target…

But alarm signs in clear view from the street and put alarm company stickers on ground floor windows.. leave a big dog bowl by the back door (which tells them there is a big dog inside if he’s not in the back yard when they’re checking things out…)… put a decent lock on your gate… have a ring camera mounted in plain view watching the garage and the front and back doors…

These things will thwart 10x more criminals than any safe…

The safe is the most internal ring of security (for possessions)…

You don’t have to worry about a $15k safe vs a $2k safe if homie isn’t coming into your house in the first place…

@mdwest - when I hit the Lottery, gonna reach out and get your address then ship You a real quality Safe, something around 4000lbs and walls that could stop a Bazooka (installation will be included with my gift). You may never need it but you will “enjoy” owning it and feel confident your valuables are protected - even though “Statistically” you may never need it. Don’t make your personal decisions based on “statistics” as they involve other people and Not the ones You care about ie: Don’t have your Family wear Seat Belts in the car because “statistically” they are unlikely to be in a serious car accident and as a Police Officer Don’t carry a handgun while on duty because “statistically” most Officers will Never fire their gun in the line of duty….WOW how obnoxious am I getting?? But you get my point - just don’t agree…thats fine ——keep an eye on the News for Winner of next PowerBall lottery and make some space in your house for your “gift”

 

[JimP]

While on the subject of the best safes that money can buy I remember a home that was being build just down from a friends home. I watched as the foundation was dug and the forms were put up. One area there was a extra foot of concrete with a plate of 1" steel placed down in it. On the inside once the forms were removed was another 1" plate of steel around the whole perimeter of it except for where the door would be. I watched as welders showed up and placed a steel cap on top of this room and welded it in place then more forums and a concrete cap was poured on top.

Sadly I didn't get to see much more since the walls were going up and all the rest was concealed from view.

That Christmas I was attending my friends Christmas party with him and some of his neighbors and the gentleman who owned the home was there. We struck up a conversation and I asked him about the construction. Turned out he planned on opening a pawn shop and needed a place that he could store multiple valuable items so he had built a vault in his basement of his home. He took me into the vault once when I was there doing some work. He actually had a bank vault door to get into it.

It just goes to say that if you have enough money and the space to do it that a very secure safe/vault can be had.

 

[HankBuck]

While on the subject of the best safes that money can buy I remember a home that was being build just down from a friends home. I watched as the foundation was dug and the forms were put up. One area there was a extra foot of concrete with a plate of 1" steel placed down in it. On the inside once the forms were removed was another 1" plate of steel around the whole perimeter of it except for where the door would be. I watched as welders showed up and placed a steel cap on top of this room and welded it in place then more forums and a concrete cap was poured on top.

Sadly I didn't get to see much more since the walls were going up and all the rest was concealed from view.

That Christmas I was attending my friends Christmas party with him and some of his neighbors and the gentleman who owned the home was there. We struck up a conversation and I asked him about the construction. Turned out he planned on opening a pawn shop and needed a place that he could store multiple valuable items so he had built a vault in his basement of his home. He took me into the vault once when I was there doing some work. He actually had a bank vault door to get into it.

It just goes to say that if you have enough money and the space to do it that a very secure safe/vault can be had.

@JimP - a Pawn Shop owner goes to the trouble & expense of creating a Bank Quality Vault in his home and “Then tells a neighbor about it”? I think I would be more guarded. Even if he trusts you and you’re likely to keep your mouth closed and tell no one else - I question his judgement.. The list of people that know of this vault already includes “every person that worked on building the house” and now has leaked into the Neighborhood. Sure, the vault may be impenetrable but what a “target” could be made of that house for a home invasion —— pawn brokers are often a target of a planned robbery and that could include following him home, force him to open safe etc.. I’m Not in the Pawn business so No expert just opinion.

 

[JimP]

It wasn't too much of a secrete since it was being built just off of a main road not to mention the two dozen or more tradesmen that were involved.

Not much different than watching a bank being built.

 

[mdwest]

@mdwest - when I hit the Lottery, gonna reach out and get your address then ship You a real quality Safe, something around 4000lbs and walls that could stop a Bazooka (installation will be included with my gift). You may never need it but you will “enjoy” owning it and feel confident your valuables are protected - even though “Statistically” you may never need it. Don’t make your personal decisions based on “statistics” as they involve other people and Not the ones You care about ie: Don’t have your Family wear Seat Belts in the car because “statistically” they are unlikely to be in a serious car accident and as a Police Officer Don’t carry a handgun while on duty because “statistically” most Officers will Never fire their gun in the line of duty….WOW how obnoxious am I getting?? But you get my point - just don’t agree…thats fine ——keep an eye on the News for Winner of next PowerBall lottery and make some space in your house for your “gift”

My entire adult life has been centered around a career of security, defense, and offense…

I’ve been paid by a number of high net worth families and Fortune 500 firms to assess security profiles and implement security programs to secure both themselves and their property..

Better than a hundred members on AH have met me personally.. most have been in my home.. they can attest to the above as true.. they’ve seen evidence that confirms…

I can assure you my home and my family are secure… and oh by the way, I don’t own a pro grade safe…

If you chose idiocracy over fact, so be it… you’re free to do so…

The truth remains the truth, the facts remain the facts, and your opinions remain wrong…

If others chose to follow the guidance and suggestions of someone with no measurable experience or training or education in the field… I suppose that’s their choice as well..

Continue spouting your clear ignorance.. perhaps you’ll gain an additional follower or two lol..

Something I think we should establish since you seem to believe you are an expert…

What safe do you own?

 

[HankBuck]

It wasn't too much of a secrete since it was being built just off of a main road not to mention the two dozen or more tradesmen that were involved.

Not much different than watching a bank being built.

@JimP —-good point. Guess thats why the Architect's and some builders of the Pyramid's —- weren’t around for long after building was completed

 

[HankBuck]

My entire adult life has been centered around a career of security, defense, and offense…

I’ve been paid by a number of high net worth families and Fortune 500 firms to assess security profiles and implement security programs to secure both themselves and their property..

Better than a hundred members on AH have met me personally.. most have been in my home.. they can attest to the above as true.. they’ve seen evidence that confirms…

I can assure you my home and my family are secure… and oh by the way, I don’t own a pro grade safe…

If you chose idiocracy over fact, so be it… you’re free to do so…

The truth remains the truth, the facts remain the facts, and your opinions remain wrong…

If others chose to follow the guidance and suggestions of someone with no measurable experience or training or education in the field… I suppose that’s their choice as well..

Continue spouting your clear ignorance.. perhaps you’ll gain an additional follower or two lol..

Something I think we should establish since you seem to believe you are an expert…

What safe do you own?

@mdwest - didn’t mean to offend you or challenge your expertise but don’t take yourself so seriously, it’s a forum/blog/post…not a Congressional hearing. I don’t need your resume and can tell you are very important with Security knowledge exceeded only by your great sense of humor and humility. Although our background & careers might be similar You know so much more (I just threw out my safe —-dragged it out to a Dumpster). Let’s discuss something less volatile than Security/safes (Politics/Religion?)

 

[mdwest]

I’m neither offended or feel challenged… truth be told I’m generally a fairly jovial guy.. I don’t get upset often or easily.. and I’ve spent a good bit of time laughing at this thread (granted it’s been “at you” and not “with you” lol)… perhaps it’s the way I type… although it could well just be who I am… when someone is wrong and insists they are right.. and the issue is one of importance, while jovial, im also not someone that’s going to let things slide either..

So… Again, facts are facts, truths are truths, and unsubstantiated opinions not founded in fact, experience, education, or training are just that… unsubstantiated opinions…

you clearly have plenty of unsubstantiated opinions you want to share…And you still haven’t bothered to tell anyone why your opinion is supposed to matter… I am legitimately curious (not being facetious at all)..

So… let’s substantiate them…

please tell us.. what safe(s) do you own, what safe(s) do you have personal experience with? What background do you have in physical security? Where did your training come from? Have you earned a CPP (certified protection professional) from ASIS (American Society of Industrial Security)? Perhaps you’ve served on some industry councils or boards? Maybe you’ve worked in law enforcement? Some time in criminal investigations? Or done some protective services work? Built security programs? Or did PVSA or SVA’s for a living?

Or maybe you’re just some dude that likes talking about things he has no practical experience and knowledge of, and prefers to make ridiculous arguments about how middle income Americans should properly protect their $50,000 rifles?

Please relieve us of the confusion… clarify your expertise for us and let us all know why we should care about your opinion on this (or anything for that matter)…

As stated earlier I am sincerely curious…

It’s one thing to be a buffoon advising others on matters of no consequence..

It’s quite another to be a buffoon advising others on matters that… well… matter…

 

[HankBuck]

I’m neither offended or feel challenged… truth be told I’m generally a fairly jovial guy.. I don’t get upset often or easily.. and I’ve spent a good bit of time laughing at this thread (granted it’s been “at you” and not “with you” lol)… perhaps it’s the way I type… although it could well just be who I am… when someone is wrong and insists they are right.. and the issue is one of importance, while jovial, im also not someone that’s going to let things slide either..

So… Again, facts are facts, truths are truths, and unsubstantiated opinions not founded in fact, experience, education, or training are just that… unsubstantiated opinions…

you clearly have plenty of unsubstantiated opinions you want to share…And you still haven’t bothered to tell anyone why your opinion is supposed to matter… I am legitimately curious (not being facetious at all)..

So… let’s substantiate them…

please tell us.. what safe(s) do you own, what safe(s) do you have personal experience with? What background do you have in physical security? Where did your training come from? Have you earned a CPP (certified protection professional) from ASIS (American Society of Industrial Security)? Perhaps you’ve served on some industry councils or boards? Maybe you’ve worked in law enforcement? Some time in criminal investigations? Or done some protective services work? Built security programs? Or did PVSA or SVA’s for a living?

Or maybe you’re just some dude that likes talking about things he has no practical experience and knowledge of, and prefers to make ridiculous arguments about how middle income Americans should properly protect their $50,000 rifles?

Please relieve us of the confusion… clarify your expertise for us and let us all know why we should care about your opinion on this (or anything for that matter)…

As stated earlier I am sincerely curious…

It’s one thing to be a buffoon advising others on matters of no consequence..

It’s quite another to be a buffoon advising others on matters that… well… matter…

@mdwest - I think I’ve only shared my Opinion and don’t see this as “right or wrong” issue… and there are many people that do as You suggest and others that follow a similar practice to mine. I would summarize (again) with my opinion that there is No Downside to using a high quality safe - if that is what someone wants to do, can afford, etc.. I don’t think I’ve resorted to calling you any “names” and certainly hope not as that is always bad form but any informative or constructive part of our posts has long past. My attempted humor might not appeal to some but thought there was a chance to lighten this up a bit - that failed. I can’t say I respect your opinion on this subject more than anyone else’s on AH (many members made good points) but your intensity and strong POV did stand out. We’ve hijacked this thread long enough, maybe someone else could add a perspective or experience that we lack.

 

[SStomcat]

Guys, I started this thread to share thoughts and learn—not to referee a cage match over who’s “right.” Plenty of good points on all sides; let’s keep it useful and civil.

 

[steve white]

That pesky testosterone....runs me off the rails too occasionally, and I'm not as alpha as some here.

 

[mdwest]

Guys, I started this thread to share thoughts and learn—not to referee a cage match over who’s “right.” Plenty of good points on all sides; let’s keep it useful and civil.

I think there has been quite a bit of qualified, data driven, factual information provided in this thread..

a guy with 25 years of law enforcement experience with a major west coast agency that spent much of his career in investigations has advised that in his entire career he is aware of exactly 1 residential safe attacked with tools (Im going to guess that single case involves very specific circumstances.. like it was a high net worth family or high value house.. or there was gang involvement.. and that it is very likely that there was "inside" information, such as a house keeper married to a gang member that knows that a) a safe is in the house and b) the safe contains expensive jewlery, etc).. ..

another guy with 10 years of law enforcement experience with a major southern agency in what most consider to be the worst crime city in the south and just under 40 years of experience in security consulting and management (me) has offered that for a middle income american, the need for a professional grade safe is statistically not present. For what its worth in my just under 40 years Im unaware of ANY middle income family safes ever being attacked by tools or by pros.

the username of yet another guy with 30+ years of experience in law enforcement in the 3rd largest city in the US, who spent almost his entire career in investigations, much of that in a senior leadership role was provided to ask his opinion. He's now in private security (not polyester suit wearing guards, but higher profile security and investigations) to ask his opinion...

Further information has been provided in several posts about what criminals do, how they do it, who they target, how they target, etc by people that actually work in criminal investigations.. Additional information has been provided about how to properly secure your possessions and household if you are truly interested in security of those items that goes well beyond what safe you purchase..

youre original question was a simple one: "Looking for a standing gun safe that will not break the bank and not too big or bulky. Good for couple of rifles and handguns and few more extras"

Outside of red herring nonsense being thrown out over and over again to argue invalid points about the value of professional grade safes (ie middle income americans dont own $50K rifles typically... commercial burglaries are not the same thing as residential burglaries.. police agencies do not make burgarlies a low priority (FWIW burglary is an FBI index crime.. hundreds of millions of federal dollars get distributed to city, county, and state police agencies based on their management of index crimes.. with that sort of money on the table, I can assure you, burglaries are taken very seriously and are very high priority for the overwhelming majority of police agencies), etc..etc.. theres been a good bit of very valuable information provided..

the question is... in looking for the answer to YOUR question.. do you want to listen to industry professionals that bring decades upon decades on hands on experience offering fact based information?

Or do you want to listen to someone thats been asked 3 times what their experience is, hasnt answered, and now acknowledges they merely offer opinion (that clearly isnt substantiated in training, experience, or education)? Who also from what I can tell, doesnt own and has not owned a pro grade safe that he seems to advocate for (the question has been asked.. but also has gone unanswered)..

 

[mdwest]

@mdwest - I think I’ve only shared my Opinion and don’t see this as “right or wrong” issue… and there are many people that do as You suggest and others that follow a similar practice to mine. I would summarize (again) with my opinion that there is No Downside to using a high quality safe - if that is what someone wants to do, can afford, etc.. I don’t think I’ve resorted to calling you any “names” and certainly hope not as that is always bad form but any informative or constructive part of our posts has long past. My attempted humor might not appeal to some but thought there was a chance to lighten this up a bit - that failed. I can’t say I respect your opinion on this subject more than anyone else’s on AH (many members made good points) but your intensity and strong POV did stand out. We’ve hijacked this thread long enough, maybe someone else could add a perspective or experience that we lack.

The issue isnt your opinion.. pages back I clearly stated people can do what they want... its their money to spend... do what makes you happy...

the issue is you continue to argue using invalid and senseless points that are unfounded or unrelated (see post above)..

your attempt at humor was nothing more than pointed and directed sarcasm.. dont attempt to play the victim.. its unbecoming and disingenuous.. if youre going to address it, I'd recommend at least manning up and speaking the truth about it..

Whether you respect my opinion or not is completely irrelevant.. I didnt offer an opinion.. I offered data driven factual information... you took issue with the absolute fact that statistically the need for a professional grade safe for the typical american middle income family simply isnt there.. that fact remains true... its been true for as long as Ive been alive.. and I would suspect it will remain true long after Im dead..

Regarding intensity and POV... yeah... Im probably a pretty "intense" guy when it comes to something I actually know about and have spent my entire adult life doing.. the POV comes from the same place.. If someone wants to spout BS about bio nuclear engineering or quantum physics, I know nothing about those topics and have little to no interest in those topics.. they can get away with it..

spouting nonsense like $50K guns and burglaries are low priority however are something I do know a thing or two about.. so no.. I typically dont sit on the sidelines and let people spread unsubstantiated BS when others getting subjected to it might actually fall for it..

 

[mdwest]

That pesky testosterone....runs me off the rails too occasionally, and I'm not as alpha as some here.

you know me well enough to know testosterone has nothing to do with it at all...

a member asked a very simple question...

he was provided nonsensical, unsubstantiated "opinion" that drives the obvious answer to his question in the wrong direction..

I addressed that issue... never having heart rate or blood pressure rise as much as a point..

I type much the same way I speak.. I am generally very direct... hundreds here know me.. I rarely beat around the bush.. and I generally dont offer opinion on anything... I am extremely analytical.. I either know the answer, and the answer is based on factual data... or I go and get the information I need to draw a conclusion.. or I refer to someone else that I know will have the answer Im looking for..

Not really any different than when you called me about another criminal issue last year.. That was one where I dont have the right background or experience.. so, I immediately pushed it to someone else that does have expertise in that field/area to get you an answer.. no time wasted.. no faulty information or "opinion" provided..