Flat nose vs round nose solids - What are the actual facts?

[michael458]

Thank you for the response Michael, I appreciate it.

My pleasure, and thanks for posting that bullet, looks to be another good tool for the tool box.................

No better tool you can have at your disposal than a good proper designed solid.......................

Repeat;

There are many many reasons to have a good solid where you can put your hands on it, regardless of caliber or cartridge, or species hunted! And NO REASON AT ALL, NOT TO HAVE ONE!

 

[Nhoro]

So what I am reading from all of this is that flat nose solid of good design will penetrate roughly double the straight line distance in meat that a round nose of similar weight.

Bone and skin will have a different effect because round nose penetrates those fairly stably. So on an elephant head shot you would expect the performance gap to narrow a bit. So round nose maybe 60 percent of flat nose ? Still a substantial difference.

And a round nose will penetrate 30 odd inches into an elephant -as evidence by Charlie Haley with his elephant leg bone and wet paper. Considering the brain is about 8-12 inches deep on a side shot and about 20-24 inches on frontal brain shot, round nose is adequate but a flat nose will only be about 50 to 60% along its journey. It will go on to create a longer wound channel and possibly damage other organs. On a texas heart shot, a flat nose has a real chance of getting to the vitals (liver/kidneys/maybe lung) while the best that you can hope for with a round nose is hip or spine shot.

I can see where a round nose may be the best choice. A guide would only have to take a frontal head shot on an elephant because he would only shoot in self defense as they don't hunt in Zimbabwe. He may choose the 100% reliability of feeding of a round nose. PH's will be faced with awkward angles where penetration is important but I know many still use round nose woodleighs saying any bullet that comes out the barrel beats one stuck in the magazine.

I can tell you that reliable feeding is not as easy to obtain and also when you are under pressure, things go wrong. You jerk and shove the bolt around and things can go pear shaped in a hurry. So I think round nose have their place. That said, I have been working long and hard to get my rifle to feed FN with 100 % reliability and it has not been easy. (and i am not convinced that I have it right ) In my guides shooting exam, I had 2 misfeeds with flat nose. Worked like a dream at home but pressure and things fell apart.Unless I can get 100% reliability, then I have to shoot RN.

 

[michael458]

 

[Wyatt Smith]

@michael458 do you have any experience with the old Speer tungsten solids? They looked to be a round nose flattened off, but to the tungsten part. Do you think a CEB or North Fork would benefit from having a tungsten dowel inside. The biggest advantage I can see if low powder capacity cartridges like the 458 win.

 

[Nhoro]

@michael458 do you have any experience with the old Speer tungsten solids? They looked to be a round nose flattened off, but to the tungsten part. Do you think a CEB or North Fork would benefit from having a tungsten dowel inside. The biggest advantage I can see if low powder capacity cartridges like the 458 win.

It was one of the bullets that were tested in the Charlie haley article I referred to on shakari connection website in African hunting magazine section delivered identical performance to a woodleigh fmj. And michael458 data shows the meplat is too small. So it is neither a flat nose nor does it penetrate better I would say that it is shorter but win mag can be loaded to full spec with 500 gr fmj solids and 480 gr monolithic. So I don't think it offered much advantage in any area

 

[Nhoro]

What was the penetration before they lost stability ?

 

[michael458]

@michael458 do you have any experience with the old Speer tungsten solids? They looked to be a round nose flattened off, but to the tungsten part. Do you think a CEB or North Fork would benefit from having a tungsten dowel inside. The biggest advantage I can see if low powder capacity cartridges like the 458 win.[/QUOTE


No I don’t believe I Have. With todays proper designed solids in limited capacity cartridges you do not need or require a 480-500 gr bullet in .458 caliber, 458 Winchester and my own 458 B&M. The 450 gr bullets are beyond adequate for the job. I have shot broadside elephants and they exit, they can shoot end to end on buffalo and accomplish anything you ask of them. Matter of fact, I recommend them to the guys with 458 Lott too....

 

[michael458]

What was the penetration before they lost stability ?

I was not there. These were brought to me by a friend that had taken the elephant with his 458 B&M and 450 #13 Solids. The two shots were not necessary, but paying the insurance anyway. This elephant was busted all to hell by the 450 Solids, talking major bones busted from the photos I had never seen an elephant so busted up and twisted.

 

[Nhoro]

Michael458 please just explain to me how you do your jetpack is it newspaper hung over something it looks a bit like there is air spaces between the paper ?

 

[michael458]

is it newspaper hung over something it looks a bit like there is air spaces between the paper ?

That's rather odd, I did not recall posting a photo of the bullet boxes, so I am not sure what you are looking at to get the impression "newspaper hung over something" and having air space in between?

Possibly you were looking at something else and become confused? My wet print medium is not hung, it is stacked in boxes 65 inches long inside, and the width of a newspaper. I also every 10-12 inches insert 1.5-2 inches of catalog/magazine mixed in, this is amazingly tough on bullets. It is soaked over several days to make sure it is soaked through and through, and lightly compressed. When testing properly designed solids I have to place test medium in a second box to catch anything that goes past 65 inches.

This is the Second box, in this photo empty, and I believe when this was taken it was new........

 

[michael458]

Oh, and the Second box can be adjusted to attempt to work with "Round Nose Solids"............ HEH HEH............... This is meant to be humorous............

 

[michael458]

I found some photos when we were testing some handgun solids in 454 Casull. Possibly this will give you a better idea as well...........

 

[michael458]

In this photo you see a series of "Witness Cards" placed at measured intervals. We used this with the Solids as well. By precisely measuring the placement, when they are removed and documented, you can very easily see if and where, and at what point any solid might have veered off course.

 

[PaulT]

Oh, and the Second box can be adjusted to attempt to work with "Round Nose Solids"............ HEH HEH............... This is meant to be humorous............

Are you sure that back box is cranked around far enough to catch a round nose ???

 

[K-man]

Oh, and the Second box can be adjusted to attempt to work with "Round Nose Solids"............ HEH HEH............... This is meant to be humorous............

This must be for the older Hornady DGS....

 

[Nhoro]

Ithink it was the second box photo where the newspaper pile has fallen over.

 

[Nhoro]

Another question-When you calculate % meplat do you use diameter of the meplat or area of the meplat ? The two are quite different-Pergrine diameter percentage is 73 % but are % is 53 %. Hornady DGS is 63 % or 41 % depending on whether you compare diameters or areas ?

 

[michael458]

Are you sure that back box is cranked around far enough to catch a round nose ???

No, not sure at all! Fact is, they only go from 14-25 inches or so before loosing stability, and at the point its anyones guess at what they do from there. I have had them go out the bottom, sides and top of the box. I have had them bust light fixtures, damage walls and other equipment. Finally I quit testing them they were just doing too much damage to the range.

 

[michael458]

Percentage of Caliber is measured by diameter of the meplat.

 

[michael458]

Ithink it was the second box photo where the newspaper pile has fallen over.

Assuming you are talking about where you saw the photo which prompted the question concerning hanging wet print. Thing is, no photos of my test boxes were posted before your comment asking about that? I was just curious about how you came to that conclusion is all....................