Duplicate factory loads?

[Axle2010]

I've got an old Caldwell Chronograph that I replaced with a Garmin a while back. Not state of the art by any means, but happy to pass it along. They can be somewhat finicky with sun and such, but the velocity seems pretty accurate when cross testing with my Garmin. It's been just sitting in my gear room for a while, so if you'd like it, DM your address and I'll get it in the mail for you later this week. I've thought about posting it in the pay it forward thread for a while, but never got around to it.

Mhunts that's an amazing offer bud i really appreciate it but I've ordered the Garmin it should be here today. Thanks so much for the offer though

 

[mhunts]

You’ll be quite happy with the Garmin. Have fun taking your handloads to the next level!

 

[C.W. Richter]

Before you take that factory round apart, measure its COAL to determine the optimum seating depth for that bullet (one, if not the most important component in a round's accuracy in a particular gun). Then, use that bullet or one with an exceedingly similar shape. CCI primers provide the lowest (statistical) SD and often greatest accuracy. You can determine what powder they used if you take a good look and review published handloading data. I never had "Superformance" powder live up to its hype and always found something tried-and-true better (in reality, using proven data and a chronograph-not sales & marketing literature!) Friends occasionally pick up a box of factory ammo and it shoots 1-hole groups (last I recall was a friend's Browning A-Bolt and Factory Win X .308 ammo 150 gr I believe)..I said, first, buy up everything that store has right now! and then, take one apart, figure it out, and duplicate it on the bench. He did, but he's been conserving the boxes for years. lol It was way less work. Wby/Norma ammo is often the easiest to figure out (and they literally had it created/perfected for 1 gun,) so it shoots exceptionally well (at $100+/box.) It's worth it! Measure everything. Take note of the brass used, etc.

 

[Axle2010]

Before you take that factory round apart, measure its COAL to determine the optimum seating depth for that bullet (one, if not the most important component in a round's accuracy in a particular gun). Then, use that bullet or one with an exceedingly similar shape. CCI primers provide the lowest (statistical) SD and often greatest accuracy. You can determine what powder they used if you take a good look and review published handloading data. I never had "Superformance" powder live up to its hype and always found something tried-and-true better (in reality, using proven data and a chronograph-not sales & marketing literature!) Friends occasionally pick up a box of factory ammo and it shoots 1-hole groups (last I recall was a friend's Browning A-Bolt and Factory Win X .308 ammo 150 gr I believe)..I said, first, buy up everything that store has right now! and then, take one apart, figure it out, and duplicate it on the bench. He did, but he's been conserving the boxes for years. lol It was way less work. Wby/Norma ammo is often the easiest to figure out (and they literally had it created/perfected for 1 gun,) so it shoots exceptionally well (at $100+/box.) It's worth it! Measure everything. Take note of the brass used, etc.

Had not thought of measuring the oal of the loaded cartridge. I've never used any of the Superformance powder but I know I haven't tried the Superformance ammo in a gun yet that liked it. Even my Tikka 308 that shoots better than I can didn't like the Superformance. Thanks again to all for the advice.

 

[analog_peninsula]

Order in bulk on ammoseek. If you’re not already a regular reloader, it’s the simplest and probably cheapest option.

https://ammoseek.com/ammo/375hh-magnum/Hornady-rifle-250grains?sh=high

 

[C.W. Richter]

Sad but true, i fell victim to some sort of superformance ad...and when the factory ammo shot like shit in my perfect 22-250, i broke out the chronograph and it shot 100s fps less than advertised (in a tight chambered 26" bbl heavily customized rig that to this date is used by Steeler Big Ben's custom builder to blow off steam shooting steel at 750 yds on weekends!) I also bought some of their powder and it did NOT live up to corporate marketing claims. sad but true. Some of their bullets are really good. They should stick with just them. Joyce would roll over in his grave. Nothing but respect for him!

 

[C.W. Richter]

LOL and to turn the dagger...long ago also bought +P 257 Roberts "Custom" ammo..LOL it should've been marketed as -P! Seriously. The boxes w/ my name on 'em look cool. lol They know Sales & Marketing BS SELLS and the avg person doesn't use a chronograph and hunts 1 weekend per year. I get it, but i no longer BUY it.

 

[jnmullins]

My M70 Classic Stainless really likes the 300gr Gamekings, as well as 300gr TSX and 250gr CX. I have used both IMR4350 and RL-15 with equal success and I expect that CFE223, Big Game and H4350 would work just as well. I don't remember the exact charge right now, but 5 shots slightly sub-MOA.

I also recommned a chronograph to assist in getting you to the same velocity as factory ammo and also to let you know when you are getting too aggressive.

@RAVEN ROCKS PRECISION carries factory second 250gr monometal bullets that certainly appear to be 250gr CX with the tips cut off for a very fair price and they are great people to order from.

375 Cal (.375") 250gr Bullets - Monolithic Copper (seconds) - 100 ct

New 375 Cal (.375") 250gr monolithic copper factory seconds bullets great for bulk loading of 375 caliber ammunition

ravenrocksprecision.com

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Hey guys how would I duplicate the factory Hornady Outfitter load with 250 gr CX bullets? My 375 loves them but they're expensive and not always available. I don't have a chronograph yet but have everything else to reload. Or should I just come up with a cheaper load to play with and keep a box of Outfitter to hunt? I really enjoy shooting this rifle and want to do it more but shebaint cheap to feed the good stuff. Last box i bought was around $80 now they're $120! I'd like to find a good load with the Gameking to play around with. As always thanks for your help

@Axle2010
When it comes to duplicating factory loads sometimes it's easy other times it's downright hard to impossible.
Unlike reloaders that are limited in the powders they use big companies blend powders to give optimum results in some cases.
I would start by disassembly of a factory round and weigh the powder charge. Then consult reloading manuals to see if there's a load that uses the same amount of powder.

You will definitely need a chronograph so you can find out the velocity of the factory load then work up a load that matches that velocity.
There's plenty of food information out there in loads for the game king and I would start with the Sierra online reloading site.
My advice is start with the slowest burning powder to give you the velocity required. This will probably be adi2209/ H4350.
Bob

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Ok boss I'll probably go with the Garmin so last question; is it worth it for the gen 2? I don't compete and I don't know why I would need to mount it on my rifles so is there another benefit to the gen 2? Are there features in the software or the app that makes it worth the extra money?

@Axle2010
I use an old chrony chronograph for my load development. A bit of a pain to set up compared to the Garmin but it works for the amount of times I use it.
If the Garmin was around back then I would have got one for ease of use but hey the old chrony is still doing a stellar job for me for the amount of times I use it. Once I have worked up a good accurate load it just sits in the cupboard. I don't think I have used it in 7 years now.
Bob

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Cause I'm VERY new to reloading and I don't know if I'm capable of building a load that'll shoot 3/4" from my 375. I used to think those bigger calibers weren't even capable of that accuracy

@Axle2010
Once you get the basics down pat you will realise that reloading isn't a black art it's an enjoyable pass time that will get you hooked.
You will be surprised how accurate those bigger calibers can be. I had a 444 Marlin that would group less than .75" and my Whelen with loads it lives shoots .5" but in average less than .75"
Enjoy the journey it's addictive.
Bob

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Before you take that factory round apart, measure its COAL to determine the optimum seating depth for that bullet (one, if not the most important component in a round's accuracy in a particular gun). Then, use that bullet or one with an exceedingly similar shape. CCI primers provide the lowest (statistical) SD and often greatest accuracy. You can determine what powder they used if you take a good look and review published handloading data. I never had "Superformance" powder live up to its hype and always found something tried-and-true better (in reality, using proven data and a chronograph-not sales & marketing literature!) Friends occasionally pick up a box of factory ammo and it shoots 1-hole groups (last I recall was a friend's Browning A-Bolt and Factory Win X .308 ammo 150 gr I believe)..I said, first, buy up everything that store has right now! and then, take one apart, figure it out, and duplicate it on the bench. He did, but he's been conserving the boxes for years. lol It was way less work. Wby/Norma ammo is often the easiest to figure out (and they literally had it created/perfected for 1 gun,) so it shoots exceptionally well (at $100+/box.) It's worth it! Measure everything. Take note of the brass used, etc.

@C W. Richter
Superformance powder isn't the same powder they use in superformance loads. If you use it in a Whelen you will break your toe with it superformance powder is far to slow for the Whelen and bullets just fall out the end of the barrel.
I can't understand why my the Hornady manual lists it for lighter bullets in a lot of calibers. Depending on the case it is a slow burning powder in the H4831 class.
I rang Hornady prior to using it in my 25 and was told as long as I don't exceed the same charge as 4831 I should be fine. I followed their advice and worked up my loads and got upto 250 fps faster speed and better accuracy with the same charge weight as 4831.
Just my experience.
Bob

 

[skydiver386]

If you can find factory ammo with premium bullets that your rifle likes, that's great. Buy all that your credit card can stand.

If not, you can usually exceed factory consistency and accuracy with a little work.

First is getting your hands on quality brass, all from the same manufacturer. It's shocking to me how many reloaders will not sort brass by manufacturer and wont weigh brass. Brass hardness, thickness and primer pockets can vary widely. What gives close to max pressures in one brand of brass can be an overload in another brand of brass that locks the bolt shut. Not what you want on the range, much less a hunt. Norma, then Nosler is my preference if I can get them.

Weigh your brass by lot to see which is most consistent.

Next key to accuracy is seating depth, which requires a dial caliper and a tool like the Hornady Bullet Comparator.

Mono bullets like the Barnes X tent to like deep, but consistent seating so they have a long jump to the rifling. Traditional lead core bullets tend to like being seated almost against the rifling, but backed off a few thousands so you avoid excessive pressures.

Primers are another important choice. CCI gives the lowest deviation, so those give me best results with 30cal and below. Once you are into 416 and up, the Federal Gold Medal GM215M is my choice to light off 100 grains of powder or more.

Powders that have worked for me are Varget, H4350 and IMR4350.The VihtaVuori powders and some Winchester powders were fine in smaller cases, but other than 223 Remington they just didn't give accuracy or consistent velocity for me. Your mileage may vary.

Last but not least is crimping your loaded rounds. This can give you some insurance that your bullets stay in the same place and don't get pushed back into the neck when they are sitting in the magazine and another round is fired. It can also give more consistent start pressure and thus a slight bump in accuracy. If you follow the instructions with most seating dies, you can do a roll crimp. My preference is the Lee Factory Crimp die.

The die on the left is a 450 Rigby Lee Factory Crimp die custom made for me by Lee after I sent them an empty round that has a seated bullet.

Here you can see the collet segments that come together as the cartridge is pushed up into the die.

You can see the slight crimp just below the case mouth. Don't overdo it. A slight crimp that holds the bullet in place is all you need. BTW, if you look closely at most factory ammunition, you'll see it has this sort of crimp.

Move from what the reloading manual lists for starting loads a grain or even half a grain at a time shooting for accuracy and consistent velocity across your Chrono. My best accuracy is usually just below the listed max charge, but not always. If you start to see what the section in your reloading manual lists as excessive pressure signs, back off the charge weight. Small changes in powder charge and seating depth will usually get you groups half the size of factory ammo

The one hole, 3 shot group just below the black dot is from my 450 Rigby using Norma brass, FGM215M primers, 107gr of H4350 powder. The other bullets in the target are from some 6.5 Manbun shooting Jackwagons on my right that thought my target was community property.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Had not thought of measuring the oal of the loaded cartridge. I've never used any of the Superformance powder but I know I haven't tried the Superformance ammo in a gun yet that liked it. Even my Tikka 308 that shoots better than I can didn't like the Superformance. Thanks again to all for the advice.

@Axle2010
One of the best powers I found in my son's 308 was Hogdon CFE223. With 50gn behind a 150gn SST or accubonds that thing shoots sub1/2" groups and gives a smidge over 2,900 fps.
This load was safe in my rifle but work up from a few grains below
Bob

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

LOL and to turn the dagger...long ago also bought +P 257 Roberts "Custom" ammo..LOL it should've been marketed as -P! Seriously. The boxes w/ my name on 'em look cool. lol They know Sales & Marketing BS SELLS and the avg person doesn't use a chronograph and hunts 1 weekend per year. I get it, but i no longer BUY it.

@C.W. Richter
Fortunately the Roberts, Whelen, 280 and a couple of other old cartridges a a handloaders dream. They can be made to make other so called better cartridges sit up and take notice with good SAFE loads they can be given a good boost.
Nothing wrong with a Roberts with a 100gn at 3,200fps or a110-120 grainer pushing close to 3,000fps.
Bob

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

If you can find factory ammo with premium bullets that your rifle likes, that's great. Buy all that your credit card can stand.

If not, you can usually exceed factory consistency and accuracy with a little work.

First is getting your hands on quality brass, all from the same manufacturer. It's shocking to me how many reloaders will not sort brass by manufacturer and wont weigh brass. Brass hardness, thickness and primer pockets can vary widely. What gives close to max pressures in one brand of brass can be an overload in another brand of brass that locks the bolt shut. Not what you want on the range, much less a hunt. Norma, then Nosler is my preference if I can get them.

Weigh your brass by lot to see which is most consistent.

Next key to accuracy is seating depth, which requires a dial caliper and a tool like the Hornady Bullet Comparator.
View attachment 779659

Mono bullets like the Barnes X tent to like deep, but consistent seating so they have a long jump to the rifling. Traditional lead core bullets tend to like being seated almost against the rifling, but backed off a few thousands so you avoid excessive pressures.

Primers are another important choice. CCI gives the lowest deviation, so those give me best results with 30cal and below. Once you are into 416 and up, the Federal Gold Medal GM215M is my choice to light off 100 grains of powder or more.

Powders that have worked for me are Varget, H4350 and IMR4350.The VihtaVuori powders and some Winchester powders were fine in smaller cases, but other than 223 Remington they just didn't give accuracy or consistent velocity for me. Your mileage may vary.

Last but not least is crimping your loaded rounds. This can give you some insurance that your bullets stay in the same place and don't get pushed back into the neck when they are sitting in the magazine and another round is fired. It can also give more consistent start pressure and thus a slight bump in accuracy. If you follow the instructions with most seating dies, you can do a roll crimp. My preference is the Lee Factory Crimp die.
View attachment 779662
The die on the left is a 450 Rigby Lee Factory Crimp die custom made for me by Lee after I sent them an empty round that has a seated bullet.
View attachment 779663
Here you can see the collet segments that come together as the cartridge is pushed up into the die.
View attachment 779665
You can see the slight crimp just below the case mouth. Don't overdo it. A slight crimp that holds the bullet in place is all you need. BTW, if you look closely at most factory ammunition, you'll see it has this sort of crimp.

Move from what the reloading manual lists for starting loads a grain or even half a grain at a time shooting for accuracy and consistent velocity across your Chrono. My best accuracy is usually just below the listed max charge, but not always. If you start to see what the section in your reloading manual lists as excessive pressure signs, back off the charge weight. Small changes in powder charge and seating depth will usually get you groups half the size of factory ammo
View attachment 779668
The one hole, 3 shot group just below the black dot is from my 450 Rigby using Norma brass, FGM215M primers, 107gr of H4350 powder. The other bullets in the target are from some 6.5 Manbun shooting Jackwagons on my right that thought my target was community property.

@skydiver386
Sage advice
I NEVER buy factory Ammo
I buy a couple of hundred cases of the same lot,
Choose the projectile I want to use
Choose the powder
Load and test until I get the desired result.
Personally in most non magnum cases I don't think primers make that much difference in hunting accuracy. Benchrest and long range is a different story again.
Bob

 

[Slickshooter]

I second this
You have to chrono the ammo you have to work up a load thatbeill have similar performance

Yep, get a chrony. I would recommend an Athlon Rangecraft for ease of use and it’s very compact.