Double rifle or bolt action?

[IvW]

Problem is always that first shot.....screw that up and there is always issues.....
1 shot is all that is needed but it needs to go to the sweet spot...double or bolt....
Use an appropriate caliber and even more importantly the right bullet....

My 500 Jeff never has let me down....If I do my part.
A double for me is a wounded cat follow up...
I can only afford my poormans double 12ga with slugs and 9.3x74R/12 ga combo....never let me down..

Just got a quote from Krieghoff for a Optima drilling....12ga/12ga/9.3×74R with a 7x57R insert barrel no blings basic.....R320 000....I gagged and have not replied......That excludes a scope..

NOrmal working man cannot afford....I will keep dreaming and buy lotto tickets....

 

[Houston Bill]

I have hunted a number of elephants. Never had two backup PHs (Don't know anyone that has, maybe you are getting it mixed up with RSA CBL hunt videos ).. Never had the PH fire a shot. Also the ten paces or so I was talking about was a charge, with a bolt one has time enough for one shot, that is it. BTW, sometimes one does get pretty close in the jess to evaluate the elephant. I definitely have gotten within 10 yards or so of cows to see if they have calves etc..

The video below is the elephant I shot last August at about 20 - 30 meters or so. No follow up shot was needed and would have been impossible anyway as once it was down I did not have a shot into the vitals due to the foliage.

Great shooting Tanks, thanks for sharing.

 

[375Fox]

It is my understanding that elephant hunting typically requires two armed backup guns for each elephant to be harvested (often more than one client hunting same elephant). Usually backup is two experienced PHs. That's three rounds into it at ten paces (maybe more if there's a second client along) ... if somehow they let it get that close without firing a shot. I would not feel the least bit uncomfortable if both PH backup guns were bolt action of sufficient caliber.

If Selby could kill elephants and buffalo shooting them left-handed with a right-handed bolt rifle, I'm confident I can safely hunt buffalo shooting a right-handed bolt action right-handed ... even if I don't have Selby's experience.

What I have observed at the range, in the field, and especially on African YouTube videos, is shooters using double guns and autos too often rush the follow up shot ... and waste it. Every year I listen to "sky busters" unloading their auto guns at geese so fast three shots sound like one. I've heard guys shooting at moose with semis sound like they're firing M60s at Vietcong. So common to observe upland hunters with their fancy break open O/Us firing both shots so fast the bird could have been dead the first shot but shooter wouldn't have known it. And the African Cape buffalo "bangbang" double rifle videos with client's second shot always blowing up dirt way off target.

South Africa may have a legal requirement to have two PHs on certain hunts. I don’t know. However what I’ve seen more is dangerous game hunts are not a common occurrence in South Africa. Most PHs will do exclusively plains game and a some will do a handful of buffalo hunts a year. Very few have opportunity to hunt elephant so there are no shortage of PHs who want to come for the experience. No one will convince me a double is better than a scoped rifle for most dangerous game for client, but I would like to see the PH next to me with a double. If you go to Zimbabwe, nearly all or possibly all that PH’s hunts that year will be dangerous game. It’s normal hunting there and they know to take it seriously. A 20 year old PH in South Africa with a brand new double on his 4th buffalo hunt would concern me, probably makes having two PHs a good practice. However, my PHs in Zimbabwe, Zambia, and Cameroon all had scars from dangerous game hunting. Two buffalo attacks and 1 leopard attack. It will unfortunately happen given enough hunts. I’d rather have an experienced PH next to me with a double who knows the significance of the hunt and how to use a double over two PHs with bolt actions and limited dangerous game experience. There is a lot of hunting to see in Africa outside the eastern cape.

 

[IvW]

Only place you need 2 ph is cbl in nw province. It is not legislation but a permit requirement only in nw.

 

[Rare Breed]

What was the reason?

He originally had a Rigby DR in 470 NE that was run over by a Land Rover which made him switch to his 416 Rigby. I just finished re reading his forward for one of Robert Ruark’s books where he recounts this

 

[Rare Breed]

Here it is...regulated with bonded RWS 293 grain cartridges..

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Exquisite wood!!!

 

[Ontario Hunter]

And Wally Johnson, the subject of Peter Capstick's "Last Ivory Hunter," used a bolt action 375 Winchester Model 70 made in 1938. I presume Johnson shot more than a few elephants with it.

 

[Daniel Cary]

good question. If I were finally a 1st time client, I'd certainly feel a lot more confident with well fit Bolt.

 

[sureshot375]

I have hunted a number of elephants. Never had two backup PHs (Don't know anyone that has, maybe you are getting it mixed up with RSA CBL hunt videos ).. Never had the PH fire a shot. Also the ten paces or so I was talking about was a charge, with a bolt one has time enough for one shot, that is it. BTW, sometimes one does get pretty close in the jess to evaluate the elephant. I definitely have gotten within 10 yards or so of cows to see if they have calves etc..

The video below is the elephant I shot last August at about 20 - 30 meters or so. No follow up shot was needed and would have been impossible anyway as once it was down I did not have a shot into the vitals due to the foliage.

Would you have had a problem making the shot with a bolt action .416?

 

[Red Leg]

I don't hunt elephant and quite sure I never will. But I understand Selby killed them just fine with his wrong-handed 416 Mauser 98. It is my understanding that elephant hunting typically requires two armed backup guns for each elephant to be harvested (often more than one client hunting same elephant). Usually backup is two experienced PHs. That's three rounds into it at ten paces (maybe more if there's a second client along) ... if somehow they let it get that close without firing a shot. I would not feel the least bit uncomfortable if both PH backup guns were bolt action of sufficient caliber.

If Selby could kill elephants and buffalo shooting them left-handed with a right-handed bolt rifle, I'm confident I can safely hunt buffalo shooting a right-handed bolt action right-handed ... even if I don't have Selby's experience.

What I have observed at the range, in the field, and especially on African YouTube videos, is shooters using double guns and autos too often rush the follow up shot ... and waste it. Every year I listen to "sky busters" unloading their auto guns at geese so fast three shots sound like one. I've heard guys shooting at moose with semis sound like they're firing M60s at Vietcong. So common to observe upland hunters with their fancy break open O/Us firing both shots so fast the bird could have been dead the first shot but shooter wouldn't have known it. And the African Cape buffalo "bangbang" double rifle videos with client's second shot always blowing up dirt way off target.

Never heard of a requirement for two backup guns anywhere in Africa. Though I haven't hunted one, I have waded through quite a few elephants while hunting buffalo in three different countries - just the trackers, PH and myself.

Perhaps you can help me with your waterfowl analogy. I use a double for ducks and geese (fast accurate second shot). The only semi-autos being used on dangerous game are carried by poachers in some of the wilder corners of the continent. And weren't you the one noting the utility of your A5 in a previous thread?

Bottom line from my perspective, and I suspect you would agree, is that whatever rifle a client takes on a hunt for dangerous game, it needs to be one with which he is extremely competent, and one with which he is most likely to perfectly place that first critical bullet. If an open sighted rifle of any type, he also needs the self-discipline to walk away from any opportunity where that first shot is likely as not to miss that critical target area.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

Never heard of a requirement for two backup guns anywhere in Africa. Though I haven't hunted one, I have waded through quite a few elephants while hunting buffalo in three different countries - just the trackers, PH and myself.

Perhaps you can help me with your waterfowl analogy. I use a double for ducks and geese (fast accurate second shot). The only semi-autos being used on dangerous game are carried by poachers in some of the wilder corners of the continent. And weren't you the one noting the utility of your A5 in a previous thread?

Bottom line from my perspective, and I suspect you would agree, is that whatever rifle a client takes on a hunt for dangerous game, it needs to be one with which he is extremely competent, and one with which he is most likely to perfectly place that first critical bullet. If an open sighted rifle of any type, he also needs the self-discipline to walk away from any opportunity where that first shot is likely as not to miss that critical target area.

Okay, happy to clarify. The point of the waterfowl analogy is having the equipment to shoot super fast does not make me any more deadlier. I shoot a heavy A5 auto for recoil mitigation, not for speed. And I don't shoot it fast. But I shoot it very well. A lot better than my Citori O/U because 1) it fits me better and 2) the auto handles recoil better and I can stay on target more efficiently. The heavier A5 maybe swings a little better. But again, speed is not as important as fit. Presumably the other thread was the one with the photo of my pheasant triple last fall? Again, the point there was not speed but fit. I was actually trying to reload when the last rooster flushed late. Still got him (but lost the glove I dropped). I often pull singles at skeet station seven with A5 under my arm safety on. And I rarely miss. For doubles the gun is always in safe carry (port arms) position and I usually partially remount for second target.

I based my two PH assumption on the very few elephant hunting videos I've seen (have no interest in hunting elephants). There always seemed to be at least three rifles present. Perhaps I jumped the gun (pun intended).

I do indeed agree with your bottom line perspective.

 

[Daniel Cary]

Okay, happy to clarify. The point of the waterfowl analogy is having the equipment to shoot super fast does not make me any more deadlier. I shoot a heavy A5 auto for recoil mitigation, not for speed. And I don't shoot it fast. But I shoot it very well. A lot better than my Citori O/U because 1) it fits me better and 2) the auto handles recoil better and I can stay on target more efficiently. The heavier A5 maybe swings a little better. But again, speed is not as important as fit. Presumably the other thread was the one with the photo of my pheasant triple last fall? Again, the point there was not speed but fit. I was actually trying to reload when the last rooster flushed late. Still got him (but lost the glove I dropped). I often pull singles at skeet station seven with A5 under my arm safety on. And I rarely miss. For doubles the gun is always in safe carry (port arms) position and I usually partially remount for second target.

I based my two PH assumption on the very few elephant hunting videos I've seen (have no interest in hunting elephants). There always seemed to be at least three rifles present. Perhaps I jumped the gun (pun intended).

I do indeed agree with your bottom line perspective.

There's 4 here .. idk.

 

[Daniel Cary]

This is just a deal gone wrong ..

 

[fourfive8]

He originally had a Rigby DR in 470 NE that was run over by a Land Rover which made him switch to his 416 Rigby. I just finished re reading his forward for one of Robert Ruark’s books where he recounts this

Yes, it was kind of an "emergency purchase". Only suitable rifle readily available at the time. IIRC a regular Mauser 98 action of some variety, not a magnum action, that had been modified so a 416 Rigby could be "shoehorned" into it for loading, shooting and extracting/ejecting. Worked well for a long time.

 

[Slider]

I see to many DG Hunters on youtube videos Short Stroking or Jamming a Bolt Action!!! A SCARY AMOUNT of them!!!

 

[Safari Dave]

Don't buy a DR, if you have to compromise on quality.

I love mine (a Heym 88b Safari in .470 NE) and thank the Good Lord that I had the opportunity and money to buy it back in 2001 (brand new) for $11,700. (I was 36)


Now that I'm 58, I value experiences much more than objects.

IMO, (unless you are a trust fund kid), use the money to hunt!

 

[Ontario Hunter]

I see to many DG Hunters on youtube videos Short Stroking or Jamming a Bolt Action!!! A SCARY AMOUNT of them!!!

I remember seeing a couple videos where the hunters were so inexperienced they didn't know how to reload their bolt guns, but I don't recall ever seeing a Cape buffalo video where client jammed his rifle. I have seen many videos where hunters carelessly wasted second shot out of their double firing too quickly. Not even close to being back on the gun. Same thing. Fancy guns and too little experience.

 

[Rare Breed]

I just recently completed my first bufffalo hunt in South Africa with my 416 Rem Mag (Remington 700) and man do I want a double rifle now! The problem is money... I'm looking on the lower price spectrum for double rifles and even a Sabatti in 416 Rigby is $7000+ and I can find an importer who will place the order. My question is this, knowing I'm not made of money should I try to find a lower price double rifle or just save the money and hunt with my 416 Rem? Perhaps someone on this forum has a line on more affordable double rifles?View attachment 539704

Whatever you decide to do…if you buy a used double send it to JJ Perodeau to check it out. I just bought a Merkel 470 for an incredible deal from Ralf Martini in Canada. I immediately shipped it to JJ who found a broken sear and triggers way to heavy. He fixed all for a small amount. Once again I have full confidence in the gun which also regulates with my hand loads under 2 inches verified by JJ. He is a genius in DRs

 

[Safari Dave]

IME, a double requires quite a bit of practice to become proficient.

Also (IMO), if you have to use a modern, battery operated optic on a DR, why bother???...

 

[RR 314]

I’m likely one of the few on the forum who has no desire to own a double rifle. I am quite happy with my .458 Lott. Now fine British shotguns, that’s another story altogether!

I am with you. No real reason why. Like Plato’s Allegory of the Cave—I am content to live in my world—what I perceive to be reality. .

I don’t experiment with drugs, side chicks or nice doubles. I am very happy in what I perceive reality to be . . . why risk turning around from the image on the wall of the cave and realize I know nothing at all?