Double Rifle Load Development Shooting Distance

Hunt101

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Exactly the reasoning of my advice. If he can put all of them on paper off sticks at 100 yards I couldn't care less if they crossed and when.

Knowing where they cross is somewhat worthless trivia. It is trivia you discover while getting a load to regulate the sights but it isn't a goal of the process, just something learned by the process.

How big a group, four shots, two from each barrel, are you making at 50 and 100 yards shooting off sticks?

I've got some groups that are well within 2" for 4 shots from both barrels, however they are crossed. I get what your saying, I often argue with myself what does it matter which barrel it came out of if the point of impacts are relatively tight. Would an elephant be any less dead from a bullet that crossed over it's intended point of impact, of course not.

Here are my points, or the factors contributing to my unhappiness with the results I'm getting.

1. I paid a lot of money for this double, just shy of 30K.
2. I paid extra to have this double regulated to 90 meters.
3. Crossing to me just isn't right, and not a sight of a proper build.
4. You never no how far you need to shoot, and naturally with crossing issues it only compounds with distance.

I completely understand we all generally intend to shoot our big game animals at relatively close distances, but sometimes the terrain only allows so much distance to be covered. I certainly would rather have the option to shoot out to 100 or 150 yards if I needed to.
 

rookhawk

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@Hunt101

You didn't say at what distance you get those groups.

If 4 shots at 50 yards inside 2", awesome. If you can get 4 shots inside 6" at 100 yards, awesome.

What I want to know is how tight are the groups. If you tell me the groups can be inside 12" at 150 yards and inside 24" at 200 yards that would mean something.

I'm trying to ascertain if the shots run parallel to infinity or if they spread and cross worse and worse as you go farther out.

I understand your concerns, but let's focus on the problem (does it group) before we focus on a symptom (it crosses you think, and does so too early)

Normally you regulate at 60 yards so that's the cross point. A dream would be 1" spread at 10 and 100 yards for a nice linear crossing over distance.

Things may not be linear. They usually go to hell at longer distances. I'm trying to get enough data to find out if your gun is better than you paid for, does what it is supposed to, or is screwed up. :)
 

Hunt101

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@Hunt101

You didn't say at what distance you get those groups.

If 4 shots at 50 yards inside 2", awesome. If you can get 4 shots inside 6" at 100 yards, awesome.

What I want to know is how tight are the groups. If you tell me the groups can be inside 12" at 150 yards and inside 24" at 200 yards that would mean something.

I'm trying to ascertain if the shots run parallel to infinity or if they spread and cross worse and worse as you go farther out.

I understand your concerns, but let's focus on the problem (does it group) before we focus on a symptom (it crosses you think, and does so too early)

Normally you regulate at 60 yards so that's the cross point. A dream would be 1" spread at 10 and 100 yards for a nice linear crossing over distance.

Things may not be linear. They usually go to hell at longer distances. I'm trying to get enough data to find out if your gun is better than you paid for, does what it is supposed to, or is screwed up. :)

All groups are being shot at 50 yards, I'll try to upload some pictures of targets recently shot to show the issue.
 

Hunt101

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Good example of what I mean, good groups, not bad if you overlap the two targets, but they are crossed.

Target 2014.jpg
 
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rookhawk

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@Hunt101

I think we need to clarify terms.

A group is left right left right, four shots. It appears you are shooting groups of one barrel only...your results are not properly assessing "group size"

Second a 500NE with 570gr bullets regulated typically at 2150fps yet you are at 1900fps?

Have you tried off the shelf loads to see what they do? Your rifle should not shoot correctly with your velocity unless you had it custom built and regulated to shoot neutered loads?
 

rookhawk

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Also, you are using a powder I don't see load data for in my sources and you're trying to regulate using the hardest bullet to deal with, a Barnes.

How about standard powder line 4350 and a woodleigh 570gr soft to get a baseline solution. Then play with other bullets and powders?
 

Hunt101

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@Hunt101

I think we need to clarify terms.

A group is left right left right, four shots. It appears you are shooting groups of one barrel only...your results are not properly assessing "group size"

Second a 500NE with 570gr bullets regulated typically at 2150fps yet you are at 1900fps?

Have you tried off the shelf loads to see what they do? Your rifle should not shoot correctly with your velocity unless you had it custom built and regulated to shoot neutered loads?

I think you might be misunderstanding my targets. I hang two targets up at 50 yards so I don't confuse which bullet impacted which location on the target. Shots are fired in strings, right then left, the referenced target 8 shots (four strings of right then left) with time to cool in between strings. Using this method I can then overlap the two pieces of paper and hold it up to a light and see how the combined groups look.

You are correct pertaining to speeds, I don't strive for 1900 fps, that speed bothers me a bit and I would like to get to at least 2050 or better. I started this testing with the Barnes on the low side of velocity as my other testing has proven better results at slower speeds. As I pick up velocity I typically see more crossing taking place, vs slowing down and seeing less crossing taking place.

I have tried factory ammo, not a lot just Hornady and two different lots of the DGS. These were running 2150 t0 2175 and crossed badly, 3" off center at 50 yards.

I have tried several more conventional powders RL15, IMR 4350, H4831, and with traditional Woodleigh solids, Hornady solids, NF solids, and Barnes Solids. I've put approximately 200 rounds down the barrels looking for the right combination. I actually didn't start with the monolithic solids, and only moved to them trying to find a non-crossing solution.

The velocity the rifle was regulated at is unknown, but Hornady bullets were used. It was a special load Hornady works up just for regulating doubles, and it isn't available for sale. I've contact Hornady to confirm this and the rep verified that is correct, special ammo is built that is extremely precise for the regulating process, however the general public can not buy that ammunition.
 

rookhawk

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@Hunt101

Option one - take up golf

Option two - get Ken Owen to regulate that rifle. My guess is nothing is simpler than a 570 soft woodleigh and 100gr of imr4350. Let Ken move the regulating wedge around and be done with it. Something seems foul.
 

Hunt101

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@Hunt101

Option one - take up golf

Option two - get Ken Owen to regulate that rifle. My guess is nothing is simpler than a 570 soft woodleigh and 100gr of imr4350. Let Ken move the regulating wedge around and be done with it. Something seems foul.

I've actually spoke to Ken a couple times about the gun, and I'm giving it some serious consideration allowing him to take the gun and sort this out. We actually spoke this morning regarding the gun. I went to the range today and here are some targets using RL15 and Woodleigh 570 grain solids. Charges used were 91 grains and 92 grains, 50 yards from a bench with a rmr sight. Shots are fired right barrel then left barrel, but on two different targets to not confuse which barrel is responsible for which impact.

I think I'm going to load some more RL15 a little hotter and see how that impacts the groups, typically it hasn't helped, but I'm going to revisit it. I may get the 4350 out as well, and give it another look.

Target 2017 & 2018.jpg
 
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rookhawk

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I've actually spoke to Ken a couple times about the gun, and I'm giving it some serious consideration allowing him to take the gun and sort this out. We actually spoke this morning regarding the gun. I went to the range today and here are some targets using RL15 and Woodleigh 570 grain solids. Charges used were 91 grains and 92 grains, 50 yards from a bench with a rmr sight. Shots are fired right barrel then left barrel, but on two different targets to not confuse which barrel is responsible for which impact.

I think I'm going to load some more RL15 a little hotter and see how that impacts the groups, typically it hasn't helped, but I'm going to revisit it. I may get the 4350 out as well, and give it another look.

View attachment 179752


Ken is your man.

Some things I've been spanked about that may apply as I too am a learner. Shooting off a bench will botch the harmonics of a double up pretty bad. Also, heat as you know changes things. Remember the beautiful left-right left - right groups we dream about that look pear shaped? That's from sticks or free hand, 40-60 yards, bang-bang-bang-bang. Absolute best guns are regulated to shoot off sticks and successive shots. Once those 4 shots in less than 15 seconds are done, you have heat and it is conducting through the barrel, metal is bending the barrels, etc.

Unless you are cold bore testing with substantial delay, that can trick you up too. What if your gun regulates like garbage but rapid four shot group shoots perfect? It very well could be just that way. And that is the way the gun will be used anyway. Cold bore second and third shots don't exist so they don't help prove a gun field worthy.

Your loads seem light but work up accordingly. I've had a few rifles now and they all used h4350, imr4350 and RL19 for their loads. (500 nitro for black was as close as I've had to your beast)

Here is some load data to consider.

Again, I'm a passionate amateur. I'm repeating qualified advice I was given, I have no grounds for advice of my own designs.

IMG_0664.JPG
 

rookhawk

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Just thinking about powder too. You usually decrease powder to reduce crossing. But you're too slow already with RL15 and you're crossing.

The 4350 powders and the RL19 burn rates are different. You need to use kynoch compressible wads or Delrin pillow stuffing if you go to these powders but I think that will give you enough changes to detonation, recoil, and time in barrel under recoil to alter the conditions.

I'm liking the fact you are using woodleigh solids in your latest shots. That's as standard SOP for this rifle as you can get. It should love shooting them.

Incidentally, what is this rifle's make? We might find the regulation load for it? Any chance it's a 3.25" 500NE and that is throwing this off with 3" loads?
 

Hunt101

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I do want to add a note regarding my bench shooting statement above, I know this is a sore subject that invokes a lot of different opinions.

When I refer to shooting from a bench I never used any sort of sled, and no part of the gun is in contact with anything other than my hands and my shoulder. I stack three sand bags up and rest the back of my left hand on the bags, and no bag is used at the rear of the stock. When I shoot from sticks I utilize the same format with only the back of my left hand contacting the sticks.
 

Hunt101

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Just thinking about powder too. You usually decrease powder to reduce crossing. But you're too slow already with RL15 and you're crossing.

The 4350 powders and the RL19 burn rates are different. You need to use kynoch compressible wads or Delrin pillow stuffing if you go to these powders but I think that will give you enough changes to detonation, recoil, and time in barrel under recoil to alter the conditions.

I'm liking the fact you are using woodleigh solids in your latest shots. That's as standard SOP for this rifle as you can get. It should love shooting them.

Incidentally, what is this rifle's make? We might find the regulation load for it? Any chance it's a 3.25" 500NE and that is throwing this off with 3" loads?

This is a new 3" rifle, it was built to my dimensions from the importers fitting measurements for what its worth. Just mean to say I believe it is a good fit for me. The regulating load for this rifle is Hornady, but it isn't off the shelf dangerous game version. The gun was regulated with a special regulating ammo Hornady makes just for the purpose of regulating, and they will not sell you any, I have tried. I have requested the velocity at which the rifle was regulated at, but no luck getting that info. So the only thing I know for sure is that the gun was regulated at 90 meters, and it was regulated with Hornady 570 grain bullets. Hornady factory loads from two different boxes, two different lots, was clocked at 2150 to 2175, and crossed horribly, 2.5" to 3" crossed from center of target. In other words the impacts where 5" to 6" across from each other.
 

rookhawk

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@Hunt101

This is frustrating for sure. I'm sorry you're dealing with such a challenge.

If 4350 and RL19 don't work, you've got to make the importer prove the rifle by supplying a regulating load or warrantying the gun, OR you get Ken to regulate that wedge again.

I wonder if they used PROOF loads and not regulating loads? Usually they are not so coy about the recipe, after all, if you can't reproduce their results it's a warranty claim. Most often, they will say "it only is guaranteed if you use XYZ like we did, all others and the bet is off".
 

Hunt101

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Just for the record the importer has fired the rifle and found success with 91 and 92 grains of RL15 running the Woodleigh solids, I however cannot get the same load to even reach the same velocities his tests showed. Possibly if I can get to his velocity with the RL15 the problem with straighten out. I certainly do want to figure this out, my hunt is in July.

Just FYI his results are from a bench as well.

500_91gr.jpg
500_92gr.jpg
 
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rookhawk

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Just for the record the importer has fired the rifle and found success with 91 and 92 grains of RL15 running the Woodleigh solids, I however cannot get the same load to even reach the same velocities his tests showed. Possibly if I can get to his velocity with the RL15 the problem with straighten out. I certainly do want to figure this out, my hunt is in July.

Just FYI his results are from a bench as well.

It all is so strange. His load should be over 2000fps and should be a hotter/harsher pressure load than a soft. The fact yours is so neutered, about 100-150fps slow that makes it very strange. Did he put stuffing in the brass that could change ignition? Do you have a bad chrony? Does he?

Very interested to follow this up.

I really liked 4350 because I could change imr to Hodgdon and get subtle differences with my 500 between the two. Ken did the final work and got the gun shooting VERY well. He just did some initial work on my .318 recently too. He'd have this worked out in a week if there is a load, and he is the only guy that would have a chance of re-regulating the barrels in time for your hunt.
 

Gavin Rorke

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Give Monty Kalogeras of Safari shooting School a call or e mail him he might have an answer for you.
 

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Neck tension and how powder charge is held in case (filler) if needed with RL15 federal uses a special primer that's hotter as well, in 470NE
 

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