Does it matter to you?

[Slickshooter]

But where does that end? If you show up with a 600ne does the ph have to use the 700ne?

True but I was just saying in my situation with the 416.

 

[Flbt]

True but I was just saying in my situation with the 416.

I understand
But me personally as long as it’s game appropriate and they can shoot it
I would be ok.
Now if they bring out a 243 on a buff hunt
I would not like that.

 

[grand veneur]

Interesting discussion, from my limited experience I’m not sure how confident I would be if I had a larger caliber than my PH while hunting DG. I would have a 416 so I would think he would have something of 450 girth or bigger.

The times I hunted elephants in Africa with my rifle caliber 500 Jeffery, I always had a larger caliber than the PH. That did not bother me or my professional hunters, who enjoyed the opportunity during this hunts to shoot also once with a rifle caliber 500 Jeffery.

 

[Mtn_Infantry]

I wouldn’t choose an outfitter or PH based on what that carry. That said I’ve had PH’s carry the following

Kreighoff 470NE
Ruger No1 416 Rigby
Pre64 M70 375
M70 Safari Express 458WM
Merkel 500NE
Heym 470NE
BRNO 602 458WM
CZ550 458 Lott
Whitworth 375
CZ550 416 Rigby
BRNO 602 500 Jeffery

 

[Slickshooter]

Not trying to ruffle feathers and I get what you guys are saying but the 375 is not known as a good charge stopper. I would think the PH would have a rifle capable of this requirement is all I’m saying. I guess regardless of what I’m carrying he/she should have a cartridge widely accepted as a charge stopper vs a minimum caliber for hunting DG. Am I crazy lol?

 

[Mountaineer]

I have never been charged on a buffalo hunt. One time we met up with a cow buff about 15 yards away. As she stared us down, my ph’s safety went off. I can tell you all I care about is the ph going to run or fight. He had 470 nitro and was planning to fight. He gained my confidence.

 

[Flipper Dude]

Not trying to ruffle feathers and I get what you guys are saying but the 375 is not known as a good charge stopper. I would think the PH would have a rifle capable of this requirement is all I’m saying. I guess regardless of what I’m carrying he/she should have a cartridge widely accepted as a charge stopper vs a minimum caliber for hunting DG. Am I crazy lol?

Are you crazy? One of us is. I honestly wouldn’t care if he was carrying a rifle or not on a buffalo hunt. Elephant hunt, yes, but his call on what he carries. I’m skeered of elephants. Irresponsible? Probably.

 

[K-man]

You are misinformed about a .375. Probably too many stories told about hunters shooting several times with a .375 but not putting any good shots on target. Do you have personal firsthand experience stopping a charging animal? I have personally stopped a charging elephant with a single shot from a .375. The trackers, game scout and P.H. all agreed on the power of a proper shot with a proper bullet. To answer your initial question, I don't care what the P.H is carrying, I have faith in his ability or I won't get out if the truck.

 

[DLSJR]

I wouldn’t choose an outfitter or PH based on what that carry. That said I’ve had PH’s carry the following

Kreighoff 470NE
Ruger No1 416 Rigby
Pre64 M70 375
M70 Safari Express 458WM
Merkel 500NE
Heym 470NE
BRNO 602 458WM
CZ550 458 Lott
Whitworth 375
CZ550 416 Rigby
BRNO 602 500 Jeffery

A Ruger No1 as a backup rifle?

OK, I’m less worried about what my PH is carrying caliber-wise and more concerned that he has at least 2 quick shots available without stopping to reload. I don’t care if my PH carries a double or bolt gun, but I damn sure want him to have more than 1 shot ready to go.

 

[Rare Breed]

I question the judgement and financial means of a seasoned PH hunting large DG with anything less than a 500 caliber. Professionals use 500NE, 500 Jeff, 505 Gibbs, and .577NE.

A few old-timer friends are still using their antique 470NE doubles they've practiced with for longer than I've been alive, I don't fault them.

IF a PH shows up with a 375HH, 416, or some half-broken 458WM abomination, I question their means/competence/judgement.

My first safaris were with the latter, where their rifle was completely hosed, broken sights, ammo coming apart, cracked stock, etc. I don't hunt with those sorts of PHs any longer.

The one caliber that stood out to me on most of my DG safaris was my PHs having 458 Lott as their caliber of choice. My feeling was it was a combination of what was the most powerful caliber could they afford to buy versus taking out affordability what caliber would they want

 

[Mtn_Infantry]

A Ruger No1 as a backup rifle?

OK, I’m less worried about what my PH is carrying caliber-wise and more concerned that he has at least 2 quick shots available without stopping to reload. I don’t care if my PH carries a double or bolt gun, but I damn sure want him to have more than 1 shot ready to go.

It was a younger PH working on his DG certification. That’s what he had access to/could afford so that’s what he carried. He knew how to shoot and reload it quicker than most clients can run a bolt rifle. He planned to buy something else once he was fully licensed for DG since at present he would always be accompanied by another PH also with a DG caliber rifle.

 

[IvW]

A Ruger No1 as a backup rifle?

OK, I’m less worried about what my PH is carrying caliber-wise and more concerned that he has at least 2 quick shots available without stopping to reload. I don’t care if my PH carries a double or bolt gun, but I damn sure want him to have more than 1 shot ready to go.

The shooting record(time and score) on the Zim ph proficiancy course is held by a Ruger nr1 in 416 Rigby......

 

[BJH65]

I thought this interesting, backup rifles carried by PH’s reported by their client hunters and contemporary 20 years ago on another forum (AR) 2006.

I’ll report what my PH’s used in 1996 Mozambique and SA-
Ray Millican Brno ZKK-602 458 Win Mag
Marc Roberts? Not sure last name- Brno ZKK-602 450 Watts and Dion Cilliers Winchester 458 Win Mag.

Buzz Charlton is using a 500 NE double these days I believe.

Sorry some names are duplicated. All member feedback from 20 years ago, I just cut and pasted. Some of the PH’s have gone on to the happy hunting ground and some are retired I assume. Still interesting I think, here’s the list:

John Sharp (.470NE double?)

Nicky Blunt (.416 Rigby?)

Mark Selby (.450/.400 DR)

Johan Calitz (.470 DR)

Alain Lefol (.460 WBY?)

Coenraad Vermaak (9,3?)

Johnny Vivvier (used to use a.458WM?)

Barrie Duckworth.....505

Joe Coogan...........416 Rigby, 458 Lott

Adam Clements........470

Garry Kelly .........470

Lou Hallamore, 470 John Wilkes double and scoped Ruger 458 as back up.

George Hallamore, 416 Rigby/Ruger but he is looking for a big double.

"Gomez" Adams, Westley Richards 450/400 3 1/4" double.

Brent Hein, Merkle 470 double

I *think* Robin hurt has double rifles in both .470 & .500 nitro as well as a .416 Remington Mag in CRF.

Myles McCallum uses a Ruger .416 Rigby

Andrew "Stretch" Ferrera has an Italian 500NE double (don't remember who made it), and a Winchester (PUSHFEED!) 458Win.Mag.

Fred Bezuidenhout, .458 Win Mag

Doug Carlisle, 450 Ackley

Andy Hunter, 416 Rem.

Roy Vincent, 460 Wby.

Billy Lemon, 460 Wby.

Carl Carinus, 458 WM

Ian Gibson, 458 Wm

Peter Barnard, 416 Rem.

Wayne Grant, 460 Wby

Steve Brewer M70 416 Rem Mag

Buzz Charlton Ruger 416 Rigby

John Greeff Westley Richards .470 NE

Russell Lovemore Ruger RSM .416 Rigby

Ridge Taylor (deceased) William Evans .500 NE

Cash Taylor Westley Richards .470 NE

Eugene Visagie was a Brno .458 Lott now a Kreighoff .470 NE

Tony Sanchez-Arino = the 416 Rigby, the 500 jeffrey and his favourite the 505 Gibbs.

Kirk Mason and Dudley Rogers - .500 Jeffery

Peter Chipman of Zambia: 470 NE Merkel double

Ronnie McFarlane in Botswana, for Okavango buffalo and elephant: Original John Rigby .416 Rigby Magnum Mauser, given to him as a birthday present by Pop, Ian.

Basie Riekert of RSA and Botswana:

Standard Mauser 98 .375 H&H, made by RSA gun mechanic, and a

475 No.2 Nitro Express 3-1/2", and I forget the maker of this double.

Clinton Rogers 458 Lott

Wyane Stanton .458Lott Brno 602

Dean Kendal .458Lott RSM & .416Rigby RSM

Lance Nesbitt .470NE DR (make?)& .416Rigby

shakari

Adding to the list, I use a .500 Jeffery as does my buddy Pierre Van Tonder.

Colin Kirkham (Bots) - .458 - 3 inch Stewart
Jason Van Aarde - .458 Lott

Clinton Van Tonder & Wikus Groenawald (both young but very good PHs) - 416 Rigby

Peter Chipman, used to use a 458 Mauser, till the lion got on him, he now uses a Merkel 470NE double rifle.

Simon Eldredge uses a BRNO 375H&H

Russ Broom uses a 470NE double rifle (MAKE???)

O Banion use a 470NE double rifle

Andew Dawson use a 470NE double rifle

Jeff Rann uses a 500NE double rifle

Gordon Cundell shoots a 500NE double rifle

Jaco Du Plesiss (spl?) before he was lost in a plane crash, used a Krieghoff 470NE double rifle.

Luke Samaras used a double rifle most of his career, but lately has started carrying a lighter bolt rifle, Caliber ???? I guess he is getting old, like most of us, and the weight of his rifle matters more than anything!

All these guys had bolt rifles as well, but usually used for meat gathering, most chambered for 375 H&H

Mike Payne uses a 404 Jeffery.

Ian Gibson does use a 458 Win Mag. It is an older M70 Push Feed model. The finish on the wood is gone as is all of the blue. It looks like a stainless steel barreled action in a 2x4. However, that rifle is absolutely deadly in his hands.

Glen Munger - Botswana - used a BRNO 458 win mag

Roy Vincent uses a Weatherby Mk 5 with either a 460 Weatherby or a 416 Weatherby barrel.

He has also used a 585 Nyati a few times he had built himself. Roy is a qualified gunsmith and does a lot of work on other PH guns.

His son Alan uses a 450 Ackley, built by his father.

Stuart Taylor; BSA light 458WIN, WINCHESTER CRF 458WIN.

Mike Taylor; custom Brno 458LOTT.

Charlie Stanton; Cogswell&Harison? 375H&H.

Mathew Stanton; Cogswell& Harison? 375H&H and MERKEL 470NE.

Peter Wood; Winchester CRF and Brno 458LOTT & AUCKLY?.

Myles McCallum;Ruger 416Rig.

Buzz Charlton;Ruger 416Rig .

Ian Gibson; Winchester PF 458Win & Rem 416Rem.

Jonathan Taylor Winchester 458Win & Ruger 416Rig

John Greef; WR 470NE

John Sharp; 470NE

Nigel Archer uses a Winchester Pre 64 in 458 Lott,it was originally a African in 458 win

Don Heath (Ganyana)

Professional hunting is changing, and backing up clients is becomming more common - hense the shift to bigger bore's with as ozhunter noted a preference for something smaller when hunting alone.

I have known only two nen use a heavy rifle for general purpose hunting. Glen Tathan (ex chief warden, zim parks and Ken Worsley, ex culling team leader.) Both use an F.N .458 Win for everything.

My old friend and hunting companion, Brian Marsh, who was one of the three pioneers of game ranching and first PH in Zim started off with a .404, moved to a H&H .465 double, then to a .450 Watts (.458 Lott) in the late 60's and then finally settled on a .375...

The two best charges I have seen stopped in recent years - an ele at 2 paces and a buff at 3 were both stopped by Gordon Duncan with his .375. Like his uncle- Clive Stockhill, he only uses a .375.

For stopping an ele, penetration and shot placeement beat power every time- look at Mike La Grange (ballistics in perspective) Art Alphin designed the 460 Short just for mike, but I never saw him shoot any animal with anything other than his 30-06 ( Used a Garand- A Square made him thousands of mono's for the culls in 30-06. There were still 11,000 in stock last time I looked!)

——————END————————-

 

[BJH65]

I question the judgement and financial means of a seasoned PH hunting large DG with anything less than a 500 caliber. Professionals use 500NE, 500 Jeff, 505 Gibbs, and .577NE.

IF a PH shows up with a 375HH, 416, or some half-broken 458WM abomination, I question their means/competence/judgement.

While I’m usually in agreement and you have a profound way of making a point, I have to wonder if you were imbibing in a little too much bourbon when you wrote this?

If we literally look at known PH’s in a variety of African countries over the past 30 years, too many to list, I would guess well under 10% carried a 500 or larger as a backup rifle for DG, probably significantly less.

That is not to say that many wouldn’t want a quality 500 double, most couldn’t afford one or they had complete confidence in their chosen rifle and caliber. Anyhow, based on your comments, you would not hunt DG with the likes of Buzz Charlton in his earlier years, Peter Chipman, Johan Calitz, Mark Selby or his famous dad, Harry Selby, John Sharp none of whom carried a 500 or larger and the late great Don Heath “Ganyana” who preferred the 375 H&H for general DG hunting and the 458 Win Mag for backup on DG. You are saying they aren’t or weren’t qualified and lack judgement? Yep, think you had too much bourbon.

 

[rookhawk]

While I’m usually in agreement and you have a profound way of making a point, I have to wonder if you were imbibing in a little too much bourbon when you wrote this?

If we literally look at known PH’s in a variety of African countries over the past 30 years, too many to list, I would guess well under 10% carried a 500 or larger as a backup rifle for DG, probably significantly less.

That is not to say that many wouldn’t want a quality 500 double, most couldn’t afford one or they had complete confidence in their chosen rifle and caliber. Anyhow, based on your comments, you would not hunt DG with the likes of Buzz Charlton in his earlier years, Peter Chipman, Johan Calitz, Mark Selby or his famous dad, Harry Selby, John Sharp none of whom carried a 500 or larger and the late great Don Heath “Ganyana” who preferred the 375 H&H for general DG hunting and the 458 Win Mag for backup on DG. You are saying they aren’t or weren’t qualified and lack judgement? Yep, think you had too much bourbon.

A professional hunter pursuing large, dangerous game ought to have a "stopping" rifle. That's my point. They have to keep the scouts, clients, ranger, and observers alive when things go pear shape.

This is why we speak often on this forum of "client guns" versus "professional's guns".

I would not be comfortable with a PH on an elephant hunt showing up under powered for the task at hand. They ought to own and proficiently use a stopping rifle. The client is under no such similar standard or obligation.

 

[BJH65]

A professional hunter pursuing large, dangerous game ought to have a "stopping" rifle. That's my point. They have to keep the scouts, clients, ranger, and observers alive when things go pear shape.

This is why we speak often on this forum of "client guns" versus "professional's guns".

I would not be comfortable with a PH on an elephant hunt showing up under powered for the task at hand. They ought to own and proficiently use a stopping rifle. The client is under no such similar standard or obligation.

The very accomplished and well know PH’s I previously mentioned did just that, protected their clients and staff, all while not using in technical terms, a “stopping rifle.” On our recent elephant hunt, my PH carried a 458 Lott, the warden a 458 Win Mag, and 2 other PH’s, one with a 450/400 Verney-Carron double and one carried a 500 A-Square (the last certainly is a true stopping rifle!). My brain shot was true so no assistance was needed but it was comforting to have all that backup!

 

[grand veneur]

What I use when hunting is more matter to me, especially when it comes to hunting DG.

 

[steve white]

My first Zimbabwe PH was Bruce Watson. He used a Browning Safari in 458 Win. Mag. which he emphasized was hand loaded by himself. He shot after I did on an extra PAC buffalo and put it's hooves in the air in about the time it took you to read this sentence. 500 gr. bullet of course.

PH for Michel Mantheakis Safaris in Tanzania used a 416 Rem. Mag. bolt action Remington push feed rifle, iron sights only, with the rear V cut at one angle on one side and an opposite angle on the other side. I wonder if finances did come into play. Mr. Mantheakis asked him, "Are you still using that 416?" He defended his position, but was, after all asked about it. He never fired a shot on the hunt, but he was not the kind of man I would worry about.

Having said that, and maybe in retrospect, I feel better when backed up by 500 gr. than by 400 gr....

 

[Mtn_Infantry]

While I’m usually in agreement and you have a profound way of making a point, I have to wonder if you were imbibing in a little too much bourbon when you wrote this?

If we literally look at known PH’s in a variety of African countries over the past 30 years, too many to list, I would guess well under 10% carried a 500 or larger as a backup rifle for DG, probably significantly less.

That is not to say that many wouldn’t want a quality 500 double, most couldn’t afford one or they had complete confidence in their chosen rifle and caliber. Anyhow, based on your comments, you would not hunt DG with the likes of Buzz Charlton in his earlier years, Peter Chipman, Johan Calitz, Mark Selby or his famous dad, Harry Selby, John Sharp none of whom carried a 500 or larger and the late great Don Heath “Ganyana” who preferred the 375 H&H for general DG hunting and the 458 Win Mag for backup on DG. You are saying they aren’t or weren’t qualified and lack judgement? Yep, think you had too much bourbon.

He did say he can’t fault the old timers still carrying and shooting their old 470 doubles for longer than he’s been alive. Most of those names would fall into this category.

Personally, I think a PH specializing in or mainly hunting Elephants needs something at least .45 or larger. There are a few outliers or unique circumstances like an appy joining on a hunt with a seasoned PH. You’re also much more likely to see PH’s who mainly hunt buffalo, especially on game ranches in South Africa using the smaller calibers than the PH’s following elephant spoor each day.

 

[BJH65]

He did say he can’t fault the old timers still carrying and shooting their old 470 doubles for longer than he’s been alive. Most of those names would fall into this category.

Personally, I think a PH specializing in or mainly hunting Elephants needs something at least .45 or larger. There are a few outliers or unique circumstances like an appy joining on a hunt with a seasoned PH. You’re also much more likely to see PH’s who mainly hunt buffalo, especially on game ranches in South Africa using the smaller calibers than the PH’s following elephant spoor each day.

You and I are not really in disagreement, after all I did use a 458 Lott on elephant, specifically to give me an advantage if I were to slightly miss the brain it would likely stun it and give me the chance for a second shot.

While the 458 Win Mag, 458 Lott, 450 Rigby, 460 Wby and 470 Nitro are not by definition considered stopping rifles, I think they are entirely suitable to be used in that role either by the hunter and/or the PH. I don’t draw a line between .45 and .50.

The great J.A. Hunter in his excellent book “Hunter” ranked the buffalo ahead of the elephant in being more dangerous during a charge. He felt that in spite of it’s massive size, a charging elephant will turn from a shot, even if not immediately lethal but only death will stop a buffalo.