CBL Banned??

[dchum]

The problem is that people keep trying to merge two completely different discussions into one. whether someone prefers long range hunting, hunting with hounds, spot and stalk, archery, dangerous game at close range, hunting over bait, or even wants to debate the ethics of using technology in modern hunting is a hunting method discussion. Those arguments can be had on their own merits.

Captive bred lions is a separate discussion entirely. The central question is not how the animal is killed, but what the animal is and the circumstances under which it was produced and hunted. Whether the hunter uses a bow, hounds, bait, or an AGM-114 hellfire missile doesn't change that underlying issue.

Trying to defend captive bred lion hunting/shooting by pointing to other hunting methods is comparing apples to oranges. You can agree or disagree with long range hunting, baiting, hounds, or any other method, but those debates do not answer the questions surrounding captive bred lions. They're two different conversations, built on two different sets of facts, and they should be discussed separately instead of constantly being lumped together whenever the topic comes up.

Thank you for this, you are much more well spoken than I am.

When people respond by comparing CBL hunting to other forms of hunting they are jsut changing the subject. The question is not whether the hunt was '"enjoyable " or "dangerous". The question is whether the rasing a lion in captivity for the sole purpose of being released and shot is acceptable

 

[V.Veritas]

No one has ever said CBL wasn’t exciting or fun. That’s not the debate.

it’s a matter of where it fits on everyone’s ethical continuum and whether or not it contributes to conservation.

I shoot pen raised pheasants.ot is good for trining my dogs and it can be a fun way to extend the season. But it isn’t hunting, it’s shooting. I have many days in some of the best pheasant hunting areas in the US where I never killed a bird. That isn’t happening with released birds.

For whatever reason I’m comfortable with captive bred birds but not captive bred big game.

I did not want to jump into this debate as I have not done any form of lion hunting, CBL or free roaming. But the pheasant hunting reference it is very important and relevant. And this is way - not all hunting is nor should it be viewed strictly from a conservation perspective. Some of it it’s just sport or shooting. The more important question is if it is legal or illegal.

If you think that it has to be strictly conservation driven I believe you are already a victim of the anti hunting crowd, knowingly or not. (Have a look at what the anti hunting movement accomplished in England so far). You have unknowingly accepted their framing of the hunting from a perspective that will only lead to a shrinking of this activity/ sport. There are many ways to frame it, all leading to the same result. Maybe I’ll touch on it later.

Remember “divide et impera”.

If you want to hunt pheasants in most of Canada it has to be captive bred birds. The winter is too cold and long and wipes out all the birds that survive the previous year release. Reintroduction of wild pheasants failed in most of Canada. You can view it as hunting or shooting. You can participate or not. But you should not align with the anti hunting crowd and try to suppress it.

If you want to hunt big game in South Africa, it has to be (mostly) between fences. Most of the game was wiped out by the end of 19th century. All this can be framed as captive breeding. It was reintroduced, hunted and hence saved. Yes, they can survive and multiply within the fences, can evade the hunter - as can the pheasants. Up to a point. When they have no value they will be gone.

Hunting over the water holes. Once the CBL is gone, this could become the new frontier. Then bow hunting. Then….

This is an example how freedom constraining is implemented:
1st they came after pistols, but I said nothing because I did not have any;
Then they came after revolvers, but I said nothing because I did not have any;
Then they came after semiautomatic rifles, but I said nothing because I did not have any…..
Now they took my muzzleloader and there was no one else to protest, but me.

Or how Covid-19 mandatory vaccination was implemented (in the countries that actually did this). It always works the same way. It’s all in the framing of “the facts”.

This must be my longest post ever.
Final thought - as long as the activity is legal, I’ll never take a stand against it and become an unpaid hired member of the anti hunting crowd community.
Each hunter should be free to decide for himself and not be ruled by the mob mentality. I’m not talking strictly about CBL hunting, but hunting in general.

 

[HankBuck]

How ethical is driving around dragging meat for a scent trail, harvesting an animal solely or largely only for bait, hanging that bait from a tree and then waiting in a hide for a wild lion? Given enough time and money a wild lion will be killed.

Outfitters that place sedated CBL’s in small pastures to be harvested the day of arrival rightfully deserve to be put out of business. Outfitters that do it right per the law don’t deserve to be categorized the same regardless of how some feel about it. I just returned from a CBL trip and overall feel like it was a great experience.

Wild or CBL there are options for people wanting to take a lion. Personally, I would rather see someone engaged in lawful hunting and continuing the sport than not hunting at all. I just hope anyone saying CBL is completely unethical don't dove hunt this September over any milo or sunflowers.

@camlo - I have read this entire thread and also older threads on this same topic. I believe YOUR post is the most succinct example of How people justify CBL hunts - they compare them to existing forms of hunting and point out - or stretch - similarities. Why? I “guess” because they get defensive about what they enjoy and are affected by criticism of it. I agree with some others that have stated “if it’s legal” than it’s for the individual to decide to participate or not. CBL is Not for me but some of my Hunts are Not for others.

 

[SETH RINGER]

I've done both baited leopard and CBL hunts. Personally, I enjoyed the CBL hunt more. It was a day and a half tracking on foot. Jumping the lion several times before a shot opportunity.
Sitting in a blind waiting for an animal to show up isn't as exciting for me.

+1

 

[dchum]

Hunting over the water holes. Once the CBL is gone, this could become the new frontier. Then bow hunting. Then…

This is such a stretch and fallacy.

The “slippery slope” idea is always used. “If we give them CBL then we loose ground!”

Give me a break. Should the hunting fraternity not self regulate? Hunting for conservation is important for the future of our sport. Even non hunting scientists agree.

 

[V.Veritas]

This is such a stretch and fallacy.

The “slippery slope” idea is always used. “If we give them CBL then we loose ground!”

Give me a break. Should the hunting fraternity not self regulate? Hunting for conservation is important for the future of our sport. Even non hunting scientists agree.

I was just voicing my own opinion on the subject. My opinion is formed by my own life experience. I'm not saying that I'm right.

I wonder what makes you so sure that you are right? And as a second thought, why is this topic so hot and important for you?

No disrespect here. Just curios what drives you.

On a lighter note: "when one is sure that he is right, it has the right and duty to impose his opinion on anybody else who thinks is right too".

 

[LivingTheDream]

Why? I “guess” because they get defensive about what they enjoy and are affected by criticism of it.

The defensive part of this is the question of ethics. Someone saying that doing xyz is unethical is going to get people fired up. It can be CBL, high fence, released birds, hounds, bait, over water, etc.

To the pheasant example, some have said (and I forgot who) that it isnt hunting it is shooting. Ok fair enough but it is still being done. So if we call it shooting is now everything ok? And as we have seen, in this discusson, some want no fences, some want big areas but fence is ok, and if we asked 100 members we would probably get 100 different answers.

Me personally, and I think I said it before in one of the 100 threads on this topic, but I honestly dont care what someone else says about my ethics, I dont really care what someone who is anti hunting has to say. I did a CBL hunt, there were multiple lions in the area, I found where it had made its own kill, and we tracked it for 3 miles. I forget the size of the area but it was big enough for me to feel comfortable about it. And if someone wants to criticize me for that, thats fine, they are more than welcome to their opinion and they don't have to do it.

I disagree with some hunting methods and disagree with some rules, I try not to criticize or question someone else's ethics, thats just me. I think someone said it isnt a right to hunt a lion, but it also isnt a right for someone to dictate their ethics of what is a legal hunt or practice.

 

[LivingTheDream]

The “slippery slope” idea is always used. “If we give them CBL then we loose ground!”

I think it is a fair arguement, but it might not be why most think it is. Most of the anti-hunting orgs are a giant grift, so they have to move on to something else to keep fundraising, whether that is elephants, wolves, bears, or I remember controversy around giraffes. There will always be something else, I think it is fair for hunters to police ourselves, I think it is strategically not the best move to give into anti-hunting pressure.

 

[375Fox]

I think it is a fair arguement, but it might not be why most think it is. Most of the anti-hunting orgs are a giant grift, so they have to move on to something else to keep fundraising, whether that is elephants, wolves, bears, or I remember controversy around giraffes. There will always be something else, I think it is fair for hunters to police ourselves, I think it is strategically not the best move to give into anti-hunting pressure.

Anti-hunting pressure or pressure from lion farmers? This should never have been accepted as hunting. It should have been banned years ago. It’s condemned by every hunting organization except PHASA that profits from the practice. The narrative is supposed to be hunting sustainable quotas supports conservation and allows wildlife populations to grow or be effectively managed. CBL is completely contrary to that narrative. Now put and take on a 7 day timeline is good thing? It’s a damaging to hunters and hunting. It continues because the practice is cheap for hunters and turns a profit for those involved.

 

[LivingTheDream]

It’s condemned by every hunting organization except PHASA that profits from the practice.

It was not condemned until there was anti hunting pressure. EVERY SINGLE CONSERVATION ORGANIZATION, auctioned off, had sponsor vendors and essentially sold CBL hunts until there was anti hunting backlash. They did not have any issue fundraising and making money off this until there was anti-hunting backlash. That is 100% fact.

Also every single outfitter profits off of a hunt. So that point to me is irrelevant.

Do you think all high fence hunting is bad for hunting?

 

[375Fox]

Do you think all high fence hunting is bad for hunting?

I support high fences if it’s used to protect and improve the environment inside. There can be wild animals inside a fence. Fences can be used grow wildlife populations inside the fence. Fencing can be good and can be justified as conservation in right circumstance. There’s always an attempt draw parallels where there aren’t. CBL lions are not used to create lion populations inside large high fence farms. The fence is simply used to hold them in after being stocked until the hunter arrives the next week. It is put and take hunting. No hunter here participating in CBL wants to openly admit supporting put and take so there obviously is some stigma to it whether willing to admit or not.

 

[SETH RINGER]

Anti-hunting pressure or pressure from lion farmers? This should never have been accepted as hunting. It should have been banned years ago. It’s condemned by every hunting organization except PHASA that profits from the practice. The narrative is supposed to be hunting sustainable quotas supports conservation and allows wildlife populations to grow or be effectively managed. CBL is completely contrary to that narrative. Now put and take on a 7 day timeline is good thing? It’s a damaging to hunters and hunting. It continues because the practice is cheap for hunters and turns a profit for those involved.

I'M SURE YOU DON'T DO IT BUT DO WE KNOW HOW MANY DAYS THE PUT AND TAKE BUFF ARE GIVEN BEFORE THEY ARE "HUNTED" ON SOME PLACES? AND ARE THEY ON A DIFFRENT LEARNING CURVE CAUSE THEY AREN'T AS REGAL AS A LION?

 

[375Fox]

I'M SURE YOU DON'T DO IT BUT DO WE KNOW HOW MANY DAYS THE PUT AND TAKE BUFF ARE GIVEN BEFORE THEY ARE "HUNTED" ON SOME PLACES? AND ARE THEY ON A DIFFRENT LEARNING CURVE CAUSE THEY AREN'T AS REGAL AS A LION?

I disagree with all put and take hunting, but some buffalo will contribute to a larger population or genetics in the herd even if taken that year. I find that less offensive. No CBL will contribute to a lion population on the farm they were stocked. There are no lion prides there. They are stocked to be harvested with a 100% harvest rate that year. No other reason.

 

[V.Veritas]

I disgree with all put and take hunting, but some buffalo will contribute to a larger population or genetics in the herd even if taken that year. I find that less offensive. No CBL will contribute to a lion population on the farm they were stocked. There are no lion prides there. They are stocked to be harvested with a 100% harvest rate that year. No other reason.

"I disgree with all put and take hunting, but some "IMPALA" will contribute to a larger population or genetics in the herd even if taken that year. I find that less offensive. No "pen raised pheasant" will contribute to a "PHEASANT" population on the farm they were stocked (in Canada). There are no "flocks of pheasants" there. They are stocked to be harvested with a 100% harvest rate that year. No other reason."

If I change the name of the game, do I change the meaning of your statement?
Is a life more important than the other?

I actually did hunt an impala buck in Limpopo that had a ear pierced from a tag. I did not know that until after I shot it. It was my first impala so I have it mounted. Was this put and take significantly different than a lion? Or just our emotional subjective oppinion makes it look so?

 

[Russ16]

I did not want to jump into this debate as I have not done any form of lion hunting, CBL or free roaming. But the pheasant hunting reference it is very important and relevant. And this is way - not all hunting is nor should it be viewed strictly from a conservation perspective. Some of it it’s just sport or shooting. The more important question is if it is legal or illegal.

If you think that it has to be strictly conservation driven I believe you are already a victim of the anti hunting crowd, knowingly or not. (Have a look at what the anti hunting movement accomplished in England so far). You have unknowingly accepted their framing of the hunting from a perspective that will only lead to a shrinking of this activity/ sport. There are many ways to frame it, all leading to the same result. Maybe I’ll touch on it later.

Remember “divide et impera”.

If you want to hunt pheasants in most of Canada it has to be captive bred birds. The winter is too cold and long and wipes out all the birds that survive the previous year release. Reintroduction of wild pheasants failed in most of Canada. You can view it as hunting or shooting. You can participate or not. But you should not align with the anti hunting crowd and try to suppress it.

If you want to hunt big game in South Africa, it has to be (mostly) between fences. Most of the game was wiped out by the end of 19th century. All this can be framed as captive breeding. It was reintroduced, hunted and hence saved. Yes, they can survive and multiply within the fences, can evade the hunter - as can the pheasants. Up to a point. When they have no value they will be gone.

Hunting over the water holes. Once the CBL is gone, this could become the new frontier. Then bow hunting. Then….

This is an example how freedom constraining is implemented:
1st they came after pistols, but I said nothing because I did not have any;
Then they came after revolvers, but I said nothing because I did not have any;
Then they came after semiautomatic rifles, but I said nothing because I did not have any…..
Now they took my muzzleloader and there was no one else to protest, but me.

Or how Covid-19 mandatory vaccination was implemented (in the countries that actually did this). It always works the same way. It’s all in the framing of “the facts”.

This must be my longest post ever.
Final thought - as long as the activity is legal, I’ll never take a stand against it and become an unpaid hired member of the anti hunting crowd community.
Each hunter should be free to decide for himself and not be ruled by the mob mentality. I’m not talking strictly about CBL hunting, but hunting in general.

I said I enjoy shooting released birds but I don’t consider it hunting. I’m not interested in hunting captive bred big game which is why I have never been interested in hunting n South Africa.

I mention the conservation angle because proponents of CBL often cite it as a benefit. I have not been convinced of that value.

Pen raised birds don’t have conservation value but I don’t claim that they do.

Some may call me a hypocrit but everyone has their own boundaries and for me birds are in a different sphere than big game.

 

[V.Veritas]

"for me birds are in a different sphere than big game."

This comment excluded you from the ranks of buddhist priests.

For many of us hunting in South Africa is the only affordable way of hunting Africa at all.
Different courses for different horses.

 

[Russ16]

This comment excluded you from the ranks of buddhist priests.

For many of us hunting in South Africa is the only affordable way of hunting Africa at all.
Different courses for different horses.

I get that. There is a reason I haven’t been able to go until now. I could have gone to South Africa years ago. But for me I didn’t want to go until I could afford to go somewhere else.

As I said earlier it is all a continuum. I think most people here would decline shooting an animal tethered to a post as a hunt (butchering is obviously different). And most would agree a wild lion in wild Tanzania is fair game. Everyone has a line somewhere between those two and it’s different for everyone.

 

[375Fox]

"I disgree with all put and take hunting, but some "IMPALA" will contribute to a larger population or genetics in the herd even if taken that year. I find that less offensive. No "pen raised pheasant" will contribute to a "PHEASANT" population on the farm they were stocked (in Canada). There are no "flocks of pheasants" there. They are stocked to be harvested with a 100% harvest rate that year. No other reason."

If I change the name of the game, do I change the meaning of your statement?
Is a life more important than the other?

I actually did hunt an impala buck in Limpopo that had an ear pierced from a tag. I did not know that until after I shot it. It was my first impala so I have it mounted. Was this put and take significantly different than a lion? Or just our emotional subjective oppinion makes it look so?

I’ll ask the same question I’ve asked multiple times. I’ve yet to get an answer from a CBL shooter. Are you willing to go to a lion farm? See how they are raised? Go to cub petting center? Select your adult lion and transport it to the hunting area? Wait 7 days and start your shooting event? Take the lion bones to the buyer after the hunt? Everyone focuses on the tracking experience to shield themselves from the aspects that completely devalue the trophy. It’s supposedly “done right” now but there are zero verifications done. Hunters put a lot of blind trust into their outfitter participating in a dishonest practice.

I don’t really think put and take pheasant shooting is hunting. It is fun and enjoyable to see the dogs work. I also don’t think it’s detrimental to hunting in large part because it’s not an emotional animal. I am willing to go the pheasant pens, release the birds, go “hunting” afterwards. If someone wants to do the same with CBL I’ll respect their opinion more, but all refuse to even acknowledge the questions. This argument would be over if they simply state they support put and take hunting at right pricing, but none will say that.

 

[LivingTheDream]

I’ll ask the same question I’ve asked multiple times. I’ve yet to get an answer from a CBL shooter. Are you willing to go to a lion farm? See how they are raised? Go to cub petting center? Select your adult lion and transport it to the hunting area? Wait 7 days and start your shooting event? Take the lion bones to the buyer after the hunt?

Brother, I have answered this. Yes, Yes, Yes (plan to take my family to one when I go). NO, I would say give me 5 or 6, and take them there, I would hunt 1. NO, I would wait 30 days, would love to document and see how they adjust, try to keep track of them. YES, I paid for 2 trips to Europe trapping, selling bones/fur/pelts doesnt really bother me.

I raised game birds and did supplemental releases. I don't see this as too entirely different. If Bongo from Texas can repopulate the mountains of Kenya, I believe there is a benefit of having a genetic back up set of animals. How that is paid for is no consequence to me.

And you make a valuable point, that proves this is just anti hunting campaign, is there still lion farms? Is there is cub petting places? Is there still a bone trade? No one actually cares about the lions, the conditions they are raised and how they are killed.

Also, just so everyone knows @375Fox is a great guy, and a hell of a hunter.

 

[LivingTheDream]

I don’t really think put and take pheasant shooting is hunting. It is fun and enjoyable to see the dogs work. I also don’t think it’s detrimental to hunting in large part because it’s not an emotional animal. I am willing to go the pheasant pens, release the birds, go “hunting” afterwards. If someone wants to do the same with CBL I’ll respect their opinion more, but all refuse to even acknowledge the questions. This argument would be over if they simply state they support put and take hunting at right pricing, but none will say that.

So you support put and take hunting as long as the price is right on a non emotional animal?

The biggest issue is how we are defining put and take. Every animal released on a game farm is to be hunted, what we are discussing is everyone's ethical line on the size of the area and how long it has been released. That is going to vary from person to person, just like baiting, just like bow hunting, just like long range hunting, just like hound hunting.