Army & Navy 12ga Jungle Gun ?

[Sarg]

Hi guys, after some info from the group.

I have been after a Paradox Gun for years & seen many from many different makers/builders/retailers with many types of rifling or chokes.

Just now I'm on the trail of a A&N Paradox which I believe might be a "Jungle Gun" it looks to have had the chokes bored out but from a bit of info I have found in the Jungle Gun it maybe a near invisible straight rifling full length then very fine at the muzzle.

Does any one have one or know about the type of rifling they might have, any info would be greatly appreciated ?

 

[degoins]

From what I've read, some if not most paradox guns had rifling that just looked like scratches in the bore near the muzzle.

 

[Red Leg]

Hi guys, after some info from the group.

I have been after a Paradox Gun for years & seen many from many different makers/builders/retailers with many types of rifling or chokes.

Just now I'm on the trail of a A&N Paradox which I believe might be a "Jungle Gun" it looks to have had the chokes bored out but from a bit of info I have found in the Jungle Gun it maybe a near invisible straight rifling full length then very fine at the muzzle.

Does any one have one or know about the type of rifling they might have, any info would be greatly appreciated ?

From what I've read, some if not most paradox guns had rifling that just looked like scratches in the bore near the muzzle.

Hey Sarg,

Most of the paradox guns that I have examined to include the Evans that I own, have rifling that exhibits a very clear slight twist over the last four to six inches of barrel. The rifling is much smoother than typical rifling, but is clearly more than scratches. I would describe it as something like a wider, more shallow, and smoother version of Metford rifling.

HOWEVER, the jungle gun initially was built while the Fosberry's patent was still in effect, and so the final few inches were left without rifling. I also believe that the Jungle Gun employed straight "rifling" to that point.

Sadly, a lot of these guns were butchered between the wars and soon after WWII by idiots turning them into "shotguns" by boring out the rifling or chopping the barrels.

Somewhere around here I have the reference on Paradox guns, and I am fairly certian the Jungle Gun is addressed. Will be back to you if I locate it this decade.

 

[Hunter-Habib]

6 groove invisible rifling.
Straight rifling all the way from the forcing cones up to 3" from the muzzle.

 

[Sarg]

Thank you @Red Leg & @Hunter-Habib, yes I have seen lots of Paradox Guns & a few Ball & Shot guns, most of the Paradox were the Forsyth Patent & had very distinctive rifling at the muzzle, some Lancaster Oval with none to see but at the back of my mind I think I remember the Jungle Gun was near invisible also ?

Thank you for posting that Hunter-Habib that's as I hoped, I'm looking at it this week & was thinking that was the case with the rifling & hadn't been "Shot Gunned" by idiots as Red Leg said .

The one I'm to check over is very similar to the one you pictured Hunter, fingers crossed !!


I have a few pics of the normal Paradox & one of the C&H "Cosmos" I will put up .

This is a C&H Cosmos here.

H&H Paradox

Would be great to get a pic like this of the "Jungle Guns" chokes ?

 

[Red Leg]

I found my reference, and though it waxed eloquently about Holland & Holland and the original patent, it had nothing on the Jungle Guns. As @Hunter-Habib illustrates with his, I am fairly certain that there would be nothing to see at the muzzles. Hope it is in great shape and that you can acquire it!

 

[Sarg]

All I have so far on the chokes.

Muzzles do look a little thin for a Ball Gun ?

 

[Sarg]

I picked up the "Gun" today, its a little scruffy & used hard, been in a gun rack a bit by the looks but tight as & has the full length rifling with a twist in the last few inches of barrel.

It is in a condition that is not too pristine for me to take it out in the bush one day after I get a nice load for it, found another for sale & it has the load info on the case lid so this could help ?

 

[Altitude sickness]

Sarg, have you seen this one. It’s listed as VG condition.

Inventory | William Larkin Moore

 

[Sarg]

Sarg, have you seen this one. It’s listed as VG condition.

Inventory | William Larkin Moore

Cripes, I had a look, that's the price of a small house lol !

I think it is a little on the ugly side to, have seen a couple of very nice examples on the net but nothing I could hope to afford before this old girl.

I threw a load together similar to what I have shot in shotguns & my H&R 12ga rifle, it was pretty good for a first try, this is only 30yds & it had a bit of recoil, the 750gr loads are going to be tough ?

 

[Altitude sickness]

That’s pretty good. And about what H&H expects out of their Paradox rifle. Apparently it loses steam quickly.

“SHOOTING IMPRESSIONS​

I shot the Paradox with Chris Bird, H&H’s chief instructor, at the firm’s recently refurbished Northwood ground. We started on the rifle range. I have shot the Paradox before and knew that it did not have quite the bite of a big Nitro Express rifle. Shooting standing, unsupported at 30yd – the range the gun is best suited for – I had no difficulty in putting three shots into a golf ball cluster. “

 

[Hunter-Habib]

For those of you who intend to also use these pieces for wing shooting, here's a word of advice:

Unlike conventional shotguns... I have personally observed that they pattern far better with shells which employ fibre/felt wads, than they do with shells which employ plastic wads/shot cups. Observed ball-and-shot guns over the years (which exhibited this phenomenon) were: a Holland & Holland Paradox, a Westley Richards Explora, an Army & Navy Jungle gun, a J.W Tolley Ubique, a Webley & Scott ball-and-shot gun, a John Rigby & Co. ball-and-shot gun and a Raick Freres Paradox.

In retrospect, this actually makes a lot of sense since most ball-and-shot guns ceased being manufactured by 1931... long before Winchester developed the plastic wad in their Mark V shotgun shells in 1964.

Thus, the forcing cones and paradox style rifling are optimized for fibre wads.

 

[Sarg]

Well it works well as a Shotgun, shot a few Bunnies & Hares with it today, saw a couple of Ducks on a small pond & a Cock Pheasant ran ahead of me before flushing, had to stop myself on that, I like seeing them on the place & Bird Hunting season is a few months off yet.

We can shoot Turkeys & Peacocks here when ever encountered as considered Pest birds in NZ.

Strangely I would of shot at least one of these at 40+yards which surprised us both, Rabbit & I !

 

[Hamid]

Dear All
Please see the detail of recent addition
ARMY & NAVY C.S.L.
A SCARCE 12-BORE "THE JUNGLE GUN" BOXLOCK NON-EJECTOR SHOT AND BALL GUN, serial no. 25808, with extra barrels, no. 112.3,
circa 1900, 28in. nitro barrels with file cut sight rib, two folding leaf sights marked 50 and 100, bead fore-sight, the rib engraved 'THE JUNGLE GUN', the tubes with 'ARMY & NAVY C.S.L. LONDON', full length shallow rifling with progressive twist, 2 1/2in. chambers; later additional 27in. nitro shot barrels (dated for 1935), the rib engraved 'NEW BARRELS BY R. BLANTON. RINGWOOD.', 2 1/2in. chambers, bored approx. true cyl. and 1/2 choke treble-grip action with removable striker discs, the toplever engraved 'PATENT', automatic safety with blue enamelled 'SAFE' detail, intercepting sears, fine border and acanthus scroll engraving with 'ARMY & NAVY C.S.L.', to the sides, retaining traces of original colour-hardening, 15 1/4in. semi-pistolgrip stock including 1in. ventilated rubber recoil pad, bolstered fore-end wood, weight 7lb. 2oz. (original barrels) and 6lb. 10oz. (extra barrels), in a canvas and leather hammergun case (distressed) initialled 'E.C.W.F.' in paint to the lid outer, together with a wood barrel case, the lid outer painted '24 MAJOR E. FOWLER 11 SIKHS'