Any Appetite for a New <$10K Double?

[Turner12971]

I’d be interested in a 416 REM

 

[pc3]

It needs to be rimmed for mine, and one of the original double rounds, like owning an MK5 it needs to be in a weatherby cal.

To that end 9.3x74r is a great round and practical, just purchased one my self. As is .375 flanged.

I also wish Chapius would do a .500 NE, there guns get pretty good reviews and cheaper than Heym.

 

[Grandpa Moose]

How about something for the thick woods/timber deer & bear hunters; 30/30 win, 35 Remington, the new 360 Buckhammer, 444 Marlin, maybe even a 348 Winchester to step up the power level. The 500 Smith & Wesson mag would be great also

Would love a double in 348 especially if pressure could be raised. Am finishing a bolt 348 on a Siamese action and look forward to working up higher pressure loads. Would be a great mid range rifle

 

[Hagler.450Ex]

I'd take a $10,000 .577 or .600 tonight. Literally tonight. Before sleep. But since that is dream world, I'm gonna say .450-400 or .375 Flanged, as there are already some nice 9.3x74's to be found in that range if one looks and has patience.

 

[Shootist43]

Tom, has there been any movement on this project / inquiry of yours? What does /did "Management" think of the idea?

 

[vh2q]

Factors to take into consideration:

1. fat cartridges require wide firing pin spacing and a large breech which means a heavy action and heavy barrels so a heavy rifle. The 450-400, albeit a good DG cartridge, is from the cordite era and like all Brit cartridges of that era is unnecessarily fat with all of the mentioned consequences.
2. to achieve low cost, the action has to be a common 20ga action (eg Merkel) that is sold in quantity. This action cannot handle ctgs in the 375 H&H class and up. It can handle up to a 9.3x74R in terms of backthrust, which is a function of base diameter and pressure. Weight is a function of fp spacing which takes a jump when you step up from a 9.3. That is why 9.3x74R doubles cost about half what 375H&H and up cost.
3. there are only two DG cartridges that fill the gap between the 300gr 375 and the 450 gr 416, namely the rimless 404 Jeff and the rimmed equivalent 450-400 at 400gr. There is no good 350gr offering at all.
4. the 9.3x74R is super marginal for dg and not legal in many countries. It's overkill for PG. It's really a compromise ctg.
5. Chapuis used to sell the UGEX rifle in cals from 284 groove up to 366 groove for about $6K but then they quit. Their Series 3 successor is too dainty for a DG cartridge. Their Brousse series for heavy calibers is (frankly) ugly.
6. The OP needs to define whether this new rifle is a true African DG rifle (ie a tiny market even at a lower price) for short range work in thick stuff, an Alaskan/Canadian rifle (a slightly bigger market that can require a longer shot but in harsh conditions which calls for synthetic or laminated stocks) or a PG/North American rifle for woods use with open sights, or with a scope (horrors) that can anchor elk-class game out to about 200. These are very different animals. The 303 would fit into the last category, nicely. The 45-70 is in the middle category but the cartridge is fat which means the rifle will be heavy, and the trajectory is poor so not a great choice. I don't think Chapuis wants to make a less expensive line of large action African DG rifles, Heym has already done that with their PH model. Their problem is the Series III has become very expensive and is too light and "flashy" for real hunting conditions. Their other problem is French Gray actions with Euro game scenes .. no real hunter wants a bright action with roe deer on it.
7. Regulation is the achilles heel of double rifles. The rifle has to be regulated for a SPECIFIC brand/load/bullet. Many DRs were regulated with ammo (eg Kynoch) that is NLA. So realistically, you have to be a handloader to invest that kind of $$ in a rifle. Then you can be relatively assured of ammo that works. But even then, powders and bullets come and go. The mfg have tried to circumvent this with adjustable regulation but only Valmet offered a system that works reasonably well in their (discontinued) 412 and 512 with separate adjustments for horizontal and vertical alignment. But then you can't have fixed ribs, and that turns a lot of people off.


As an aside, why does nobody put a ghost ring sight on their double? This can be fashioned as part of the toplever screw. There is a reason battle rifles use ghost rings or big apertures ("battle sights"). Most DG hunters are over the hill and they cannot see express sights. So they use scopes which are bulky, vulnerable to damage, and defeat the intent of a DR.

 

[DaBill]

So if we are thinking about calibers not to take away from Chapuis other lines and we are thinking outside the box. How about a 416 REM MAG or a 458 win mag. Non traditional rimmed calibers but both very popular in Africa and wont compete with their other calibers. Easy to find ammo anywhere loads of bullet choices and much cheaper to feed.

 

[Ray B]

The expensive part of building a double rifle is to accommodate all of the forces involved in pushing bullets down two different barrels and having them land at approximately the same spot. I'm wondering with all the development in "artificial intelligence" being applied to all sorts of computer programing and industrial manufacturing: could it be possible that a program could be developed that would include all of the variables and then have a CNC driven machine build and assemble the double rifle. If so, it might be possible to build some (the prototype would be expensive, but additional ones would become inexpensive.

 

[SRvet]

The expensive part of building a double rifle is to accommodate all of the forces involved in pushing bullets down two different barrels and having them land at approximately the same spot. I'm wondering with all the development in "artificial intelligence" being applied to all sorts of computer programing and industrial manufacturing: could it be possible that a program could be developed that would include all of the variables and then have a CNC driven machine build and assemble the double rifle. If so, it might be possible to build some (the prototype would be expensive, but additional ones would become inexpensive.

There is a saying in the British military that “no plan survives first contact with the enemy”. I wonder if the same is true with test firing a double rifle?

 

[grand veneur]

I don't believe there is much room for optimization as so much has already been tried with precision rifles, and yet inconsistent factors that significantly affect shooting accuracy still remain. This refers above all to barrel vibrations and gas escape from the muzzle. In a double rifle with two adjacent barrels, no matter how tightly they are fixed together, one influences the other when swinging and also when stretching. All of this is very counterproductive to achieving a high accuracy.

Anyone using a double rifle must be aware that he are using a weapon that reflects 19th-century technology. Several inches of shot grouping were standard at that time. Anyone who is very concerned about the accuracy of his rifle should think carefully about whether he want to buy a double rifle, especially one that is not too expensive.

 

[Alistair]

The expensive part of building a double rifle is to accommodate all of the forces involved in pushing bullets down two different barrels and having them land at approximately the same spot. I'm wondering with all the development in "artificial intelligence" being applied to all sorts of computer programing and industrial manufacturing: could it be possible that a program could be developed that would include all of the variables and then have a CNC driven machine build and assemble the double rifle. If so, it might be possible to build some (the prototype would be expensive, but additional ones would become inexpensive.

It's a good idea in theory. In practice though? Not so much.

As an example. Let's say you buy an AR platform. You shot it lots, and you wear out the barrel. You buy the exact same barrel, from the exact same manufacturer. You screw it into the exact same receiver.

It'll shoot to the same point of aim, right? No need to re-zero. All the same parts.

We all know that doesn't happen.

Why? Manufacturing tolerances.

It's the same issue with the CNC made pre-regulated double rifle idea.

You could do it in theory. Design a blueprint that's engineered precisely to guarantee regulation.

But then... you've gotta manufacture all those parts to an infinitely tight tolerance, far more than what is otherwise needed. If you don't, it won't be regulated.

That then leads to massively increased manufacturing costs, high reject rates, much much tighter tolerances on materials and assembly, a whole suite of additional manufacturing metrics that suddenly go from not an issue, to critically important.

That then gets you to a point where 'just pay a guy to regulate the thing' is far more cost effective.

 

[Altitude sickness]

It is also the metallurgy. Each piece of metal is different. Thats one of the purposes behind cryogenically treating metal.

 

[1:66 twiste@d]

375 flanged magnum nitro express! Someday I will have one!

 

[Rubberhead]

The cost of laser engraving the surface a gun's receiver is a rounding error to $10k.

 

[Choupique]

could it be possible that a program could be developed that would include all of the variables and then have a CNC driven machine build and assemble the double rifle.

I think it's certainly possible to get a really good result on the first pass and design in a little bit of adjustment that doesn't involved soldering in wedges, tons of trial and error, and all that good stuff. Adjustment probably wouldn't be necessary at all with good automated manufacturing. The dimensional consistency and accuracy you can get from those machines is amazing. Good materials and finishing work and post-treatment of the steel parts would likely yeild a product plenty good enough to go out and kill dangerous game reliable. Final assembly will always be a hands-on job, but again starting out with good parts means assembly requires less skill and time, and therefore will be much cheaper. The modern world can turn out REALLY good automatic watch movements for dirt cheap these days - the lockwork of a double rifle would be a virtual cakewalk.

The market volumes almost certainly would not justify the investment, otherwise somebody would already be doing it. Regulation isn't magic and the geometry and manufacturing tolerances could certainly be CAD designed and CNC built and yield a good result with very little craftsman hands-on work needed relative to what a bespoke hand made double goes through. People buying bespoke doubles would likely not have much interest in a budget $3,500 double made by a machine, even if it was accurate and reliable. I think the only market for that would likely be the PH's of the world and there aren't a lot of those guys out there. You'd have some eccentric americans buy one just because, and the PH's would probably love them, but again, such a limited market.

The safari model 70's at ~ $1,800 don't exactly sell like hot cakes. Once you get over 30 caliber the sales volumes plummet dramatically, and I just don't think there's a high volume market there for even a sub $4k double dangerous game rifle. CNC manufacturing is all about volume and it takes a lot of volume to pay for those awesome machines and the people who make them purr. Low volume niche hardware like double rifles and high dollar wrist watches is usually best served by skilled craftsmen finding their own balance between modern manufacturing and "the old ways."

 

[woodsman1991]

Assuming reasonable regulation, I’d be very interested in on chambered for standard 375 H&H. Ammo is everywhere. Reliable and decent regulation for under 10k is very attractive for those of us just starting out.

 

[DaBill]

The Blaser S2 had a lot of innovation separated the barrels regulated at 100yard had good weight for caliber etc. In the end not enough market to make sense for them. I would love to see it but in the end I have my doubts that it will happen.

 

[ARod]

All,

As some of you know, I manage a brand of double rifles (Chapuis). I am kicking around some ideas for 2026 new product introductions. One of them is to offer a basic model with no engraving, 2-star wood and no special finish, that would retail for less than $10,000 in 2026.

The calibers I'm thinking about are .375 H&H and .45-70. Configuration would be the same as my African doubles (large action, 26" barrels, express sights, double triggers, ejectors, manual safety).

Why the .45-70? Because with it, hunters could also use it here in the US, especially in states that allow straight-wall cartridges for big game. Why no .450-400 and .470? Because doing so would necessarily cannibalize from my other two lines, the Iphisi and the Elan Classic & Artisan, which are selling well.

Also, I'm thinking of including mounts for RMR red dots on all my African-sized doubles, free of charge.

I'd like to hear your thoughts about this, as well as any suggestions you may have (realistic!) for anything else.

Thank you all in advance, as always.

What about 405 Winchester?

 

[wvfred]

Any idea when and if these may be available? I'm interested!