Ammunition for Cape Buffalo

[Jono Joseph]

there has been some excellent advice given by people with experience in this thread!

excellent bullets:
- Swift A-frame 300gr
- Barnes TSX 270gr (I prefer lighter with mono-metal)
- North Fork 300gr soft
- Woodleigh 300gr Soft
- Woodleigh 350gr soft
- Nosler 300gr partition (not my favorite, but ive seen them work very well on buffalo)

ive been playing with Peregrine bullets lately but haven't tested them on game yet. I wouldn't be against trying them on a buffalo in the 270gr range.

-Matt

Matt you should definitely give them a burn they are really great bullets. I have become a fan of the mono metal bullets and know that the peregrines design makes them perform outstandingly.
@Kristof Aucamp can send you more info.

I agree with previous comments about having the best bullets possible being in top physical shape and practicing with your rifle continuously. After all one needs all this to be up to scratch as your about to take the life of an animal so make it as ethical and clean as possible. Buffalo don't always run away after all sometimes they come find you and thats when all those other factors pay dividends.

Shot Shot

 

[matt85]

Matt you should definitely give them a burn they are really great bullets. I have become a fan of the mono metal bullets and know that the peregrines design makes them perform outstandingly.
@Kristof Aucamp can send you more info.

I agree with previous comments about having the best bullets possible being in top physical shape and practicing with your rifle continuously. After all one needs all this to be up to scratch as your about to take the life of an animal so make it as ethical and clean as possible. Buffalo don't always run away after all sometimes they come find you and thats when all those other factors pay dividends.

Shot Shot

if Peregrine would sponsor a buffalo hunt then id happily try out their 600gr VRG-3 from my 505 Gibbs. i may use their VRG-5 on my upcoming PG hunt but that depends on how well i can get it to shoot from my 338 WM.

-matt

 

[Divernhunter]

WildRose---Thanks for the info on the scirocco bullets. I will plan on just using the A-Frames like before. The Scirocco bullets have been great on deer here so I was thinking about them especially for smaller stuff. But the A-Frames will work on them also.

 

[matt85]

i forgot to mention, for my buffalo i used 570gr Swift A-frames from my 505 Gibbs. the Swift A-frame performed flawlessly and weight retention was 90% even with one bullet passing threw a tree before hitting the animal.

-matt

 

[WildRose]

WildRose---Thanks for the info on the scirocco bullets. I will plan on just using the A-Frames like before. The Scirocco bullets have been great on deer here so I was thinking about them especially for smaller stuff. But the A-Frames will work on them also.

I really like the way they shoot but at high velocity (anything over about 2,600fps impact speed I've had them prove to be completely unreliable even on deer.

The craziest I've seen was from a 260 Rem at 120yds on a small white tailed buck. Bullet entered broadside a tad low hitting between the 3rd and 4th rib where it hit the sternum and shot straight up into the spine flattened out the size of a Kennedy Half Dollar.

They are an extremely accurate bullet but after seeing more than a dozen of these really weird over expanded and absolutely unpredictable tracking through the body I just won't use them on game any more.

Shot out of my 300 Rum and 7mm STW I've had them literally cut coyotes in half at 300-500yds hiting them broadside center mass.

The Hornady Interbond for anything up to the size of the Blue wildebeest in any of the 6.5's, 7mm's, or 30 calibers really is probably the best performing bullet overall I've ever used with which I have a great deal of experience.

I will however be shooting the Perigrine VRG-3 and VRG-4's in large numbers for the next few years to so I can gather enough data to be fair to them. What little experience I have with them so far has been extremely positive and they are now for sale here in the US. They are great people to deal with as well.

 

[Divernhunter]

The Scirocco's have been excellent on deer/pigs for us.
My daughter shot a nice buck with a 100gr in a 257R with the bullet doing 3200FPS over my Chrono at 10 FEET in the shoulder. Took out both shoulders and recovered the bullet stuck in the hide and it was turned inside out. Other shot with the same gun and others(mostly 6.5 and 30cal) have all been good.

Never could get the interbond bullets to group in 308cal in my 308Win and 30-06 rifles. I do try to push my hunting loads fast so that could be the trouble. Others I have spoke with have also had grouping problems with the interbond

 

[WildRose]

The Scirocco's have been excellent on deer/pigs for us.
My daughter shot a nice buck with a 100gr in a 257R with the bullet doing 3200FPS over my Chrono at 10 FEET in the shoulder. Took out both shoulders and recovered the bullet stuck in the hide and it was turned inside out. Other shot with the same gun and others(mostly 6.5 and 30cal) have all been good.

Never could get the interbond bullets to group in 308cal in my 308Win and 30-06 rifles. I do try to push my hunting loads fast so that could be the trouble. Others I have spoke with have also had grouping problems with the interbond

That's really odd. I've shot them in 9 different centerfire rifles in six different calibers and never had a problem getting acceptable accuracy out of them which I consider to be no more than 1.5 MOA groups at 100yds.

I have shot bullets that grouped better but none that have performed as consistently for me over the years.

I really thought I'd found the perfect bullet when I found the SiroccoII but on game performance just isn't there for me. Most of what I shot with them was most certainly dead as long as I put the shot where it belonged but having shot a lot of big hogs (Over 400lbs) and having learned a great deal on my first trip to Africa a bullet that tracks straight through at any angle with limited, controlled expansion has become as important or even moreso than acceptable accuracy.

Unless you have custom long throats a with a lot of freebore designed primarily to shoot VLD's I've never seen the interbond not shoot well. Sometimes you have to play with the seating depth a little but as a rule they are not sensitive to it and more often than not where people get into trouble is limiting themselves to just one powder instead of finding the appropriate powder and of course trying to push them at speeds that cause pressure problems.

Of course no two rifles will shoot the same exact load the same and some people just seem to consistently get way better or worse results than the average out of any given bullet/load/caliber etc.

 

[Foxi]

I found that in the AH archive.
Hornady bullets.
Waterbuff shot at 70yds with .416 Ruger ,recovered from the far shoulder.
Gizmo,you make me a little bit nervous,because Im hunting buff in May again.
I take the Hornady DGX and FMJ and I will show you the result
Or not
Foxi

 

[Royal27]

I found that in the AH archive.
Hornady bullets.
Waterbuff shot at 70yds with .416 Ruger ,recovered from the far shoulder.
Gizmo,you make me a little bit nervous,because Im hunting buff in May again.
I take the Hornady DGX and FMJ and I will show you the result
Or not
Foxi

@Foxi ,

It is of course your decision, but if you have access to better bullets I would strongly suggest that you take advantage of the opportunity you now have to get some and use them. But like I said, it is your decision and as long as you know that you're not shooting the best (or even close to the best) bullet and you and your PH are both comfortable with the decision, then I respect it.

There are just too many examples of failure, including IMO, the pictures you posted from your previous buffalo.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

Any piece of metal injected at high speed into the heart/lung area of any animal has a high likelihood of killing that animal. It's not so much a matter of can a bullet ever do it's job, it's a question of reliability, will the bullet do the job shot after shot after shot. No one hunter (not counting PH's) is likely to shoot enough animals to answer that question. But thanks to forums like this, we can gather enough statistical data from a large enough group of hunters to answer that question.

When it comes to the DGX, the answer to that question of reliable killing has been answered and that answer is a firm no in my opinion. It doesn't mean it doesn't ever work, it doesn't mean that it won't work perhaps even most of the time where most means more than half. But it has performed poorly in too many instances for me to even consider using it especially with the availability of what I consider to be far superior bullets.

Getting too attached to a bullet because it has performed well for you a few occasions seems unwise to me too. I've killed plenty of animals with the Nosler Partition. Love the bullet, love the story that drove John Nosler to develop a better bullet. But as much as I love the bullet, I would not think for a moment of using it on Buffalo. I would bet Mr. Nosler would consider the A-Frame and NF Bonded cores to be the natural evolution of improvement of the Partition design.

Now as to why the DGX has seen the wide spectrum of performance, I don't know. I can think of a number of possibilities from poor design to poor quality control in manufacturing. But that's for the Hornady guys to figure out and I hope they do. I appreciate what Hornady has done for shooting and especially providing brass in some of the classic calibers. But the DGX is not a product I have any intention of buying.

 

[Royal27]

Any piece of metal injected at high speed into the heart/lung area of any animal has a high likelihood of killing that animal.

Or a frozen herring. So I've heard at least....

 

[Wheels]

I was going to not post but I feel that not doing so isn't fair to you. I am one of many that had horrible luck with DGS/DGX ammo. I am a Hornady fan but I will NEVER, and I don't use the word lightly, use that line against anything dangerous again. 20-40$ per box difference between Hornady DG series and good reliable ammo is a cheap price to pay when your life depends on it and your spending a total investment of 20k or so. I almost lost a buff (I had a lot of responsibility for a bad shot on that) and could have very well been eaten by my lion (all of which were perfect shot placement) as result of that ammo. The thin skinned/boned lion took 7 yes 7 shots to kill from a 416, 5 softs and 2 solids, from Hornady DGX/S ammo. I have previously posted much on this but will briefly do so again. The 5 bullets recovered from my lion (4 softs and 1 solid) were nothing more than scrap metal. The solid was the best performing with the highest weight retention (which was completely unacceptable from a solid for it to mushroom like it did and still loose weight).
Solid, best of the bullets recoveredView attachment 59521View attachment 59522 Best of the softs, very little weight retention View attachment 59526Worst of the softs, extremely low weight retentionView attachment 59524All five recovered bullets from the lionView attachment 59523

Not sure if I saw these bullets on your earlier thread Erik. These photos are frighteningly pathetic examples of quality.

Thanks for sharing.

 

[Jono Joseph]

if Peregrine would sponsor a buffalo hunt then id happily try out their 600gr VRG-3 from my 505 Gibbs. i may use their VRG-5 on my upcoming PG hunt but that depends on how well i can get it to shoot from my 338 WM.

-matt

Asking never hurt anyone
try them you wont be sorry..

Shot Shot

 

[WildRose]

Any piece of metal injected at high speed into the heart/lung area of any animal has a high likelihood of killing that animal. It's not so much a matter of can a bullet ever do it's job, it's a question of reliability, will the bullet do the job shot after shot after shot. No one hunter (not counting PH's) is likely to shoot enough animals to answer that question. But thanks to forums like this, we can gather enough statistical data from a large enough group of hunters to answer that question.

When it comes to the DGX, the answer to that question of reliable killing has been answered and that answer is a firm no in my opinion. It doesn't mean it doesn't ever work, it doesn't mean that it won't work perhaps even most of the time where most means more than half. But it has performed poorly in too many instances for me to even consider using it especially with the availability of what I consider to be far superior bullets.

Getting too attached to a bullet because it has performed well for you a few occasions seems unwise to me too. I've killed plenty of animals with the Nosler Partition. Love the bullet, love the story that drove John Nosler to develop a better bullet. But as much as I love the bullet, I would not think for a moment of using it on Buffalo. I would bet Mr. Nosler would consider the A-Frame and NF Bonded cores to be the natural evolution of improvement of the Partition design.

Now as to why the DGX has seen the wide spectrum of performance, I don't know. I can think of a number of possibilities from poor design to poor quality control in manufacturing. But that's for the Hornady guys to figure out and I hope they do. I appreciate what Hornady has done for shooting and especially providing brass in some of the classic calibers. But the DGX is not a product I have any intention of buying.

In my experience there just isn't enough to keep the core bonded to the jacket and the jacket is too frangible for high velocity loads. They separated completely even on my Sable and two recovered each from straight on body shots on zebra.

I got complete pass throughs with two on the zebras and on the Nyala but one of the pass throughs still lost a big chunk of lead on the way through which was recovered.

If I have a real prejudice in bullets it's in always deferring to Hornady as my "Go To" bullet but the new DG series really seems to need some re-engineering. Namely I'd say they need a stronger jacket and a cannelure so that they give better controlled expansion and weight retention. I'd honestly have more confidence shooting the 45-70 loaded with 405gr solids than I would the 375 Ruger shooting the DG line.

Asking never hurt anyone
try them you wont be sorry..

Shot Shot

So far that is my impression as well. I don't know of anyone who has not been pleased with their terminal performance and when you talk to these guys one on one it's instantly obvious they know what they are doing and back it up both in the field and in the lab.

I'm really hoping I can get the VRG-4's to work well in my longer and long range rifles because on the terminal end of things they are awfully hard to beat.

 

[Jono Joseph]

I shoot them in my 7mm rem mag (120 gr @3400fps) also 300wim mag (180gr @3000fps) and they work.
Let me know when you try them and the out come

I suppose this is better discussed in another part of the form as buff are shot inside of 60meters
which always makes for exciting hunting.

Another point if your shooting a scoped rifle before you leave make sure you can hit a target if your standing at about a meter or so. In case you need to put a coup de grace make sure it is placed perfectly, i have had this in the past where clients couldn't see the animal as the scope was out of focus etc. Just make sure you can if needs be.

Shot Shot

 

[WildRose]

The Scirocco's have been excellent on deer/pigs for us.
My daughter shot a nice buck with a 100gr in a 257R with the bullet doing 3200FPS over my Chrono at 10 FEET in the shoulder. Took out both shoulders and recovered the bullet stuck in the hide and it was turned inside out. Other shot with the same gun and others(mostly 6.5 and 30cal) have all been good.

Never could get the interbond bullets to group in 308cal in my 308Win and 30-06 rifles. I do try to push my hunting loads fast so that could be the trouble. Others I have spoke with have also had grouping problems with the interbond

Not to pound on this too much but due to a thread on another forum discussing the sirocco II I went looking for some gel test data that reflected my experience and came across this.

http://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/DocGKRData/308_150grSwiftScirocco.htm

This is indeed reflective of my experience and is what I consider to be complete bullet failure in what is supposed to be a "Premium Bonded Hunting Bullet".

I did not recover any that has separated completely as these did but I did have some flatten out much more that did not pass through even on White Tails.

Oddly enough though the longest shot I have ever made on a hog was a one shot kill on a very large boar with the 300 Rum shooting the 180gr.

It was at a ridiculously long range though that I won't mention but it was in excess of 600yds.

When they slow down they seem to work pretty well but inside of 300yds I"ve just had too many problems with over expansion.

 

[PeteG]

Not to pound on this too much but due to a thread on another forum discussing the sirocco II I went looking for some gel test data that reflected my experience and came across this.

http://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/DocGKRData/308_150grSwiftScirocco.htm

This is indeed reflective of my experience and is what I consider to be complete bullet failure in what is supposed to be a "Premium Bonded Hunting Bullet".

I did not recover any that has separated completely as these did but I did have some flatten out much more that did not pass through even on White Tails.

Oddly enough though the longest shot I have ever made on a hog was a one shot kill on a very large boar with the 300 Rum shooting the 180gr.

It was at a ridiculously long range though that I won't mention but it was in excess of 600yds.

When they slow down they seem to work pretty well but inside of 300yds I"ve just had too many problems with over expansion.

i'm not on the same page here...
What is so bad about that test?

 

[WildRose]

I shoot them in my 7mm rem mag (120 gr @3400fps) also 300wim mag (180gr @3000fps) and they work.
Let me know when you try them and the out come

I suppose this is better discussed in another part of the form as buff are shot inside of 60meters
which always makes for exciting hunting.

Another point if your shooting a scoped rifle before you leave make sure you can hit a target if your standing at about a meter or so. In case you need to put a coup de grace make sure it is placed perfectly, i have had this in the past where clients couldn't see the animal as the scope was out of focus etc. Just make sure you can if needs be.

Shot Shot

Thanks Jono. You are correct but then I think he probably got as many thorough answers as he could have hoped for.

Once I get recovered from my upcoming surgeries we're going to be moving and I'll get to unpack all my reloading gear and get to work. I'm really looking forward to seeing the results of the 270gr Plains Master in the .375 Ruger and the 200gr and 150gr respectively in the 300 Rum and 300win as well as the 150g in the 7mm STW. I just wish they could produce the .284 in a 179-180gr.

At least I'll have a full year to find the loads that work best before heading back to the RSA.

For any of you guys in N. America interested in the Peregrine Bullets their rep in the US is Hermann Weidemann and you can contact him directly for an inventory list and/or bullet orders.

hermann@peregrinebullets.com

He's a great guy to deal with.

Their website is:

http://www.peregrinebullets.com/

 

[WildRose]

Not to pound on this too much but due to a thread on another forum discussing the sirocco II I went looking for some gel test data that reflected my experience and came across this.

http://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/DocGKRData/308_150grSwiftScirocco.htm

This is indeed reflective of my experience and is what I consider to be complete bullet failure in what is supposed to be a "Premium Bonded Hunting Bullet".

I did not recover any that has separated completely as these did but I did have some flatten out much more that did not pass through even on White Tails.

Oddly enough though the longest shot I have ever made on a hog was a one shot kill on a very large boar with the 300 Rum shooting the 180gr.

It was at a ridiculously long range though that I won't mention but it was in excess of 600yds.

When they slow down they seem to work pretty well but inside of 300yds I"ve just had too many problems with over expansion.

The bullet broke up and separated completely. When they do that often penetration is extremely limited and the bullet track can take off at extremely weird angles instead of passing relatively straight through as I experienced with my Wildebeest and Warthog.

 

[PeteG]

The bullet broke up and separated completely. When they do that often penetration is extremely limited and the bullet track can take off at extremely weird angles instead of passing relatively straight through as I experienced with my Wildebeest and Warthog.

I was looking for where it mentions in the article the complete separation and couldnt find it.
Reason being i use the sciroccoII in my 300wm and if this is the case, i will do some testing on them... or switch back to the AFrame's.

The weight retention is not bad at all in the tests.
94% in Bare Gelatin and
85% in Auto Glass.

Comparably the TSX broke up and lost 2 petals in the Auto Glass and must have lost +-10% of its mass.

If the separation and bad performance was on your hunting trip, then i follow now. I thought it was mentioned in that article.