Africa Hunting and a Marlin .444!

[WAB]

Bob,
You could resurrect your .444 Marlin in a Savage 110? I'm sure the recoil wouldn't be much more (if any?) than your hot loaded .35 Whelen? Remember, NEED has nothing to do with it, according to most everyone here (including me) on AH. Rifle/cartridge choice is an art, not science? Ha! Ha! Ha!
CEH

Hmmm, if that’s the case maybe Bob should write a book on the art of the .243?

 

[M McDindi]

Hawkeyesatx - I don't have any personal experience with the 444 at all. However, I do have a good bit of time and several trips to Namibia with both lever and bolt actions in 45-70 and 450Marlin. I even used my lever 450 Marlin for the PH school in KZN in 2011, and we have taken a LOT of PG with levers and bolt action Siamese Mausers in 45-70 and a custom Ruger 77 and a Win 70 in 450 Marlin. We've take multiple species of PG from warthog, springbok, nyala, blue & black w/b, red hartebeest, gemsbok kudu and up to plains and mountain zebra out to 170m or so without any issues at all. Bullets have been simple old Rem 405's to 425gr Cast Performance WFLN in the lever guns at 1925 to just over 2000 fps. The bolt guns we run 350gr TSX at 2200 fps and 325gr CEB solids at 2350fps.

Based on that, in my opinion, IF YOU want to take your 444 Marlin to Africa on PG safari, by all means do so. I would caution you to keep species under zebra size and impact distance around 150m or under if possible. With a good flat nose hard cast at max velocity, I'd say even eland would be fine within 125m or less.

As other's have mentioned, it "might" be capable of successfully taking DG under "just the right circumstances", it's likely not going to meet the minimum 4000 ft lbs of muzzle energy that most countries require for DG hunting.

If you'd like to make a PG trip with your lever gun, I'll be more than happy to go with you and use one of mine. We could even put together a little "lever gun only" trip for 3-4 more like minded lever lovers.

Michael

 

[CoElkHunter]

Hawheyesatx - I don't have any personal experience with the 444 at all. However, I do have a good bit of time and several trips to Namibia with both lever and bolt actions in 45-70 and 450Marlin. I even used my lever 450 Marlin for the PH school in KZN in 2011, and we have taken a LOT of PG with levers and bolt action Siamese Mousers in 45-70 and a custom Ruger 77 and a Win 70 in 450 Marlin. We've take multiple species of PG from springbok, blue & black w/b, red hartebeest, gemsbok kudu and up to plains and mountain zebra out to 170m or so without any issues at all. Bullets have been simple old Rem 405's to 425gr Cast Performance WFLN in the lever guns at 1925 to just over 2000 fps. The bolt guns we run 350gr TSX at 2200 fps and 325gr CEB solids at 2350fps.

Based on that, in my opinion, IF YOU want to take your 444 Marlin to Africa on PG safari, by all means do so. I would caution you to keep species under zebra size and impact distance around 150m or under if possible. With a good flat nose hard cast at max velocity, I'd say even eland would be fine within 125m or less.

As other's have mentioned, it "might" be capable of successfully taking DG under "just the right circumstances", it's likely not going to meet the minimum 4000 ft lbs of muzzle energy that most countries require for DG hunting.

If you'd like to make a PG trip with your lever gun, I'll be more than happy to go with you and use one of mine. We could even put together a little "lever gun only" trip for 3-4 more like minded lever lovers.

Michael

You could take crs with you and his .405 Winchester? Nice perspective on the African hunting side with lever actions.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

I don't believe your interpretation of the article was the same as mine, however we are all entitled to our own opinions.

What I will say is that you don't get points deducted for using a more powerful cartridge. That said, you should have the safari you want and if you choose to take the 444MARLIN, you should enjoy the experience.

I'd also say that you should consult your PH on your choice and ask what he thinks. Longer shots on larger game may need to be passed on because of the ballistic limitations of the cartridge.

@BeeMaa
No such thing as balistic limitations a longer ranges. This is where it sorts the hunters from shooters.
Just STALK closer to make sure of your shot. If'n bow hunters can stalk close enough surely a man with gun can do the same.
Bob

 

[Cervus elaphus]

FWB,
Was Grendel some sort of witch or son of one?

iirc Grendel was the nasty mythological beast in the poem "Beowulf". His mother was Angelina Jolie who lived in an underground lake and seduced brave Scandanavian warriors. Beowulf cut Grendel's arm off and rendered it 'armless.

 

[flatwater bill]

On my first ever guided hunt, a buffalo hunt (fair dinkum), the guide for CJ Mc and me was a man named "Mad" Max, and he had a Marlin 444 as a back-up. He was an expert, and could probably have done just fine with a 243, but I can not recommend it for us mere mortals. (Ya, Grendel was a little harsh.....I retract and apologize)..............FWB

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Bob,
You could resurrect your .444 Marlin in a Savage 110? I'm sure the recoil wouldn't be much more (if any?) than your hot loaded .35 Whelen? Remember, NEED has nothing to do with it, according to most everyone here (including me) on AH. Rifle/cartridge choice is an art, not science? Ha! Ha! Ha!
CEH

@CoElkHunter
To much work to convert the savage. The SMLE NO4 on the other hand was easy.
Been thru the art as nd science for my uses and tried a few rifles and cartridges except the piss ant useless little 243.
A 63 I have settled on what works for MY needs. Yes I made mistakes along the way but now I'm happy.
I don't open the safe and try and figure out what ttsx to take. I just work out what I'm hunting and take the right rifle. If'n I can't figure it out I just gab the 35.
Bob

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Hmmm, if that’s the case maybe Bob should write a book on the art of the .243?

@WAB
Mate I haven't got that much time.
I openly hate that cartridge BUT if any one can actually find a use for it and it works for them all praise to them.
I've seen it fail to many times and have had to finish of the wounded game. I have absolutely no faith in it and wouldn't have one if you gave it to me. Yes it has a great selection of projectiles but the problem is most people in Australia choose the wrong one for the game hunted.
I'll stick with what I know from my limited 45 plus years to what I know works for me and the 243 ain't it.
Bob

 

[Tundra Tiger]

A sample size of one (trip)... I plan to write a full report when I am home. I am sitting in the airport in Seattle on the way right now.

Last week I killed a nice zebra and a mature cow buffalo with my .45-70. I used Cutting Edge brass solids. It was a frontal shot at 45 yards. She went 20ish yards and died quickly, complete with death bellow.

Not sure how my .45-70 compares to what you could put together for your .444, but they are both Marlins, so....

 

[Cervus elaphus]

iirc Grendel was the nasty mythological beast in the poem "Beowulf". His mother was Angelina Jolie who lived in an underground lake and seduced brave Scandanavian warriors. Beowulf cut Grendel's arm off and rendered it 'armless.

Correction: Beowulf tore off Grendel's arm, didn't use his sword

 

[M McDindi]

Tundra Tiger - IF that CEB Solid was the 325gr one that I use in the levers and bolts, it is incredible.

Michael458 on here, tested those at a modest 2250 fps in his "testing range" and they went dead straight 60"+ thru wet newspaper. Just for reference, he did that out of 458 Win Mag. At that weight and velocity, it meets the 4000 ft. lb. DG min. I can get there with my 1895 Marlin in 450 Marlin because it's rated at higher chamber pressure than the 1895's in 45-70. The bolt guns in 45-70 and 450M even have a little left to spare at 2350 fps.

 

[BeeMaa]

@BeeMaa
No such thing as balistic limitations a longer ranges. This is where it sorts the hunters from shooters.
Just STALK closer to make sure of your shot. If'n bow hunters can stalk close enough surely a man with gun can do the same.
Bob

In some cases I'll concede that point. However things like time of day, shot angle, terrain, brush and wind conditions play a factor as well. Getting a second chance while stalking closer is never a guarantee.

If I have "bow hunter" time for spot and stalk in Africa for a particular species on true trophy quality game, I doubt I'd be worried about what caliber rifle I'd be taking.

 

[CoElkHunter]

Correction: Beowulf tore off Grendel's arm, didn't use his sword

Brutal bastard!

 

[crs]

In the movie, Beowulf, he was well played and there was much violence, including the death of Grendel and his witch mom. And Beowulf got the heroine .

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

In some cases I'll concede that point. However things like time of day, shot angle, terrain, brush and wind conditions play a factor as well. Getting a second chance while stalking closer is never a guarantee.

If I have "bow hunter" time for spot and stalk in Africa for a particular species on true trophy quality game, I doubt I'd be worried about what caliber rifle I'd be taking.

@BeeMaa
Agreed to all of that. If it is early enough in the day you can take wind, terrain, angle and other stuff into account. If it is late in the day maybe you shouldn't take the shot unless 100% Sure, there is always tomorrow.
Bob

 

[hawkeyesatx]

A sample size of one (trip)... I plan to write a full report when I am home. I am sitting in the airport in Seattle on the way right now.

Last week I killed a nice zebra and a mature cow buffalo with my .45-70. I used Cutting Edge brass solids. It was a frontal shot at 45 yards. She went 20ish yards and died quickly, complete with death bellow.

Not sure how my .45-70 compares to what you could put together for your .444, but they are both Marlins, so....

Hey! You have a short barreled 1895!

Well... to compare the .444, and the .45-70, they're more alike performance wise than not.
The 265 - 270 gr. Bullets equal the 350 gr .45-70! The 300 gr .444 bullet equals the 405 gr .45-70 bullet.
The reason being, the .444 gets higher velocity, and that really makes up a lot of the difference in bore diameter.
That's a nice water buffalo you got there!
The .444 has a better trajectory, though. Otherwise, the effect that both have on game is pretty much equal.



Hawk

 

[Tundra Tiger]

Yeah... Mine is the GBL. I wanted the SBL but got a great deal on this one so a GBL it was.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Hey! You have a short barreled 1895!

Well... to compare the .444, and the .45-70, they're more alike performance wise than not.
The 265 - 270 gr. Bullets equal the 350 gr .45-70! The 300 gr .444 bullet equals the 405 gr .45-70 bullet.
The reason being, the .444 gets higher velocity, and that really makes up a lot of the difference in bore diameter.
That's a nice water buffalo you got there!
The .444 has a better trajectory, though. Otherwise, the effect that both have on game is pretty much equal.



Hawk

@hawkeyesatx
My 444 marlin built on a No4 SMLE. The only rifle I regret selling.

 

[Cervus elaphus]

In the movie, Beowulf, he was well played and there was much violence, including the death of Grendel and his witch mom. And Beowulf got the heroine .

Beowulf got his mother as well. He sired the dragon Grendel II

 

[BeeMaa]

@BeeMaa
Agreed to all of that. If it is early enough in the day you can take wind, terrain, angle and other stuff into account. If it is late in the day maybe you shouldn't take the shot unless 100% Sure, there is always tomorrow.
Bob

This is exactly my point, there isn't always tomorrow. Tomorrow could be catching a plane. These are not the days of 6-18 month safaris for the majority of us. Of course you are right, you shouldn't take ANY shot unless you are 100% confident, but the difference in capabilities of different cartridges can't be denied.

I would hate to know I have the ability to shoot to 250 yards in any given condition and not be able to take a shot beyond 100 yards because the cartridge I chose was the limiting factor. Sometimes you only get one chance to make a good shot. I will do my best not to waste it.

If one is willing to accept the limitations of the cartridge that are being placed on the hunter (like bow hunters, black powder, handguns, air rifle and some lever cartridges) by the particular method they wish to take game and it is legal, I am in full support of their right to do so.