A fine (but unmarked!) side by side

[stk]

Hello! I purchased this veryinteresting SxS 12 gauge at auction a few years ago. If there are any shotgun guys in the crowd, have a go at identifying it! I still haven't been able to. Ignore the clipped on fiber optic sights on the rib...they were removed as soon as I got it!

 

[C.W. Richter]

A dear friend once saw some of his old guns for sale here and there (no mfr marks either.) They were commonly referred to as Stolen! But, he was able to get a few back (and I think NRA insurance covered the rest.) How did they identify the SxS in the auction and how much did it set you back?

 

[stk]

This was listed at a very well known auction house. It was from the estate of a collector amongst dozens of Merkel, Kreighoffs, Rizzinis, etc. I don’t remember exactly what I paid, but it was a price I was surprised and happy to get it at.

This particular shotgun was listed as being of unknown origin. It has a serial and importation number but no maker. Best guess from others more knowledgeable than me is that it came from one of the Japanese houses.

 

[Berettaco]

Due to the importation serial stamp and engraving I’d guess Japan as well. I’ve had a bunch of shotguns from there - none had the cross bolt but that doesn’t mean it didn’t happen - miroku, Nikko, KFC, and smaller shops could copy the best guns with very good results.

 

[rookhawk]

Hello! I purchased this veryinteresting SxS 12 gauge at auction a few years ago. If there are any shotgun guys in the crowd, have a go at identifying it! I still haven't been able to. Ignore the clipped on fiber optic sights on the rib...they were removed as soon as I got it!

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It is indeed an odd gun. First strange thing is that it is an 8-pin sidelock. Someone was reinventing the wheel a bit when the classic H&H 7-pin patent and the simpler 5-pin have been in the public domain for a century. (Clue #1)

Then we look at the emphasis on "loudness" of the gun from the scroll coverage executed with a minimal selection of chisels and gouges, the gold triggers, the carved fences, and the overall appearance of the gun. Embellishment is high and quality is low. (Clue #2)

Quality of features: It has a beavertail forend, some inconsistent checkering on one side of the wrist, and the stock isn't "stocked to the fences" which means the wood was easier to head at the action by the design. (Clue #3-#5)

Lack of proof marks. This is illegal in many jurisdictions and it removes of course the UK, and all CIP countries from the potential location of origin. (Big Clue #6)

Lack of proper tools: The script on the barrel flats and water table were sloppy and out of symmetry indicating the most basic of ability to stamp text onto the gun rather than nice clean rows. (Clue #6)

A lot of additional "over the top" embellishments that are not traditional including gold paint in some of the engraving on the belly of the action and black paint on the sidelocks. (Clue #7)

My votes in likely order (more pictures of the barrel under the forend may help pinpoint futher)

#1 - India
#2 - Turkey

Distant #3 options: Former Yugloslavian countries (but would mean gun made after 1992...doubt it) and the various "Stans".

What it positively is not:

Spanish
French
English
Belgian
American
Brazilian
Russian
Czech
Austria
Chile
Finland
Sweden
Germany
Hungary
Italy
Russia
Slovakia
UAE
UK

 

[270Guy]

Lack of proper tools: The script on the barrel flats and water table were sloppy and out of symmetry indicating the most basic of ability to stamp text onto the gun rather than nice clean rows. (Clue #6)

A lot of additional "over the top" embellishments that are not traditional including gold paint in some of the engraving on the belly of the action and black paint on the sidelocks. (Clue #7)

My votes in likely order (more pictures of the barrel under the forend may help pinpoint futher)

#1 - India
#2 - Turkey

It looks like a Darra Adam Khel Model to me,its in the Tribal Region of Pakistan,they can clone anything ,From Aks to M16-04s,they had replicated some fantastic Guns,the likes of Purdey's,H&H,WRs,etc,etc,,have seen similar workmenship on their Guns.

 

[BeeMaa]

@rookhawk - this is one of the main reasons I enjoy this site…learning from those so much more knowledgeable than most. Thank you for the lesson.

 

[fourfive8]

Not much help form me and I think @rookhawk has explained the possibilities very well!
When Darra was mentioned a light came on and flickered a little . It's possible. But... while the Khyber Pass smiths can literally make anything, this shotgun looks a little better than what they usually do. It does hint that way though. For example the "Steel" and "Choke" stamped on the receiver and barrel block- huh? Typical of the simple, nonsensical copied markings the Darra smiths often add. Odd... Who knows? On the other hand it also has a look about it similar to some guns from Turkey - Huglu comes to mind. Also it shows some attempt at indexing the orientation of the screw slots. Some Huglu shotguns are that way. The black background fill of the engraving is typical of the lipstick on a pig look some manufactures attempt to use to "fancyfy" guns to sell to a less than sophisticated market. Again I dunno. Japan? maybe again I dunno. Another possibility just popped into my head... could it be an unmarked trade school product that never went to a proof house?

 

[mark-hunter]

Distant #3 options: Former Yugloslavian countries (but would mean gun made after 1992...doubt it) and the various "Stans".

To my knowledge, ex Yugo countries do not make such guns.
There are few established and reputable factories and none is making shotguns.
(Zastava in Serbia, HS product in Croatia, one factory in Monte Negro - Tara Arms, and one in Slovenia - Arex)

In Slovenia, there are few modern workshops, mostly focused on production of sport pistols and ar15 rifles, or classic bolt action for hunting, or f-class rifles.
No shotguns are produced.

 

[270Guy]

Not much help form me and I think @rookhawk has explained the possibilities very well!
When Darra was mentioned a light came on and flickered a little . It's possible. But... while the Khyber Pass smiths can literally make anything, this shotgun looks a little better than what they usually do. It does hint that way though

You have to see what they are making,if there is some member from that part of the world I am sure he can post some Pictures,i had a lot of Photos of the stuff they are producing,lost my phone and all the Info is gone,will try and get some and post here.You will be surprised at their Workmanship.

 

[Hunter-Habib]

Your shotgun was made in the 1960s by the Jamil, Zahid & Hamid family in Sialkot, Pakistan.

 

[stk]

Your shotgun was made in the 1960s by the Jamil, Zahid & Hamid family in Sialkot, Pakistan.

That’s a definitive statement! What led you to that conclusion? Do you have pictures of other shotguns they produced or any more information about them? I’m very interested in knowing more!

 

[freefall]

What would you take for the clip-on sights? PM me, I'm looking for some.

 

[Hunter-Habib]

That’s a definitive statement! What led you to that conclusion? Do you have pictures of other shotguns they produced or any more information about them? I’m very interested in knowing more!

Here’s a copy of a Westley Richards they made.

Since Pakistan lacks poof houses … the family hand-tests these by loading them with heavy shells, tying a long piece of twine to the triggers and letting ‘er rip by standing from a safe distance.

I killed my first and second man eating Royal Bengal tigers in 1981 and 1988, with a single barrel 12 gauge which was made in Sialkot.

The guns typically have very well choked barrels (I’ve never even seen modern Beretta shotguns throw such tight patterns). But their ejectors are almost always bound to fail (necessitating the empty shells to have to either be forcefully pried out with a knife or be pushed out with a cleaning rod).

Your shotgun was probably brought to your country by a foreign diplomat, who visited Pakistan during the 1960s (when President Marshal Ayub Khan was constantly inviting foreign diplomats to come and visit the country). I visited Sialkot frequently during 1967 and 1968, when I was studying “Principles of Forestry” in the University of Peshawar. Lots of local gun makers formed a cottage industry over there, back in those days. Today, they are still present In Sialkot. But they have largely faded into obscurity.

 

[WAB]

Now that is a very interesting piece of history. Thank you Hunter-Habib!

 

[Hunter-Habib]

Now that is a very interesting piece of history. Thank you Hunter-Habib!

Just glad to be helping out, WAB.