458 win mag minimum bullet weight for Cape buffalo

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I have read a lot about new bullet technology. I’m a reloader so I bought some 295 grain cutting edge safari bullets in 458 cal. They are regulated to my double barrel. Shooting 4 shot 1 hole groups at 50 yards and less than 1.5 inches at 100 yards. Velocity is 2616 fps. Would these be suitable for Cape buffalo? Thanks.
 
I have read a lot about new bullet technology. I’m a reloader so I bought some 295 grain cutting edge safari bullets in 458 cal. They are regulated to my double barrel. Shooting 4 shot 1 hole groups at 50 yards and less than 1.5 inches at 100 yards. Velocity is 2616 fps. Would these be suitable for Cape buffalo? Thanks.
Raptors are just wicked. I normally like to see a minimum of 18 inches penetration in my test medium for buffalo. And this is based on years of experience with mostly conventional expanding bullets. Raptors are not conventional in any way. In correlation between my test medium and animal tissue the rule of thumb is 70% more penetration in animal tissue than test medium with Conventional expanding premiums. For Raptors the rule of thumb is 100% or basically doubled. In this test, which was a very early one, at near the same velocity as you are running I got 17 inches of total penetration. I believe you would be in good shape, with a careful 1st shot, and as mentioned by @Altitude sickness you very well may have a pass through with perfect broadside and no bone contact. It will be close. Severe angled shots, be careful and patient. If you have not tried them see how the 325 solids shoot for you too, they are a match to the 295s, so should shoot same POI at 50 yards. Have you tried or worked with the 325s? Also, which version of 295 are you using, the Lever Raptor or the SS Raptor..... difference is in Nose Projection..... The SS has a longer nose projection than the Lever Raptor....... ?? And so forth with the 325 Solids.........

I have a GOOD TIP for you. If you are not using them, get some Talon Tips that fit in the cavity from CEB. They will buy you 125-150 fps at 50 yard impact, and that is substantial with these bullets.

DSC08713-L.jpg


Your only concern would be another animal behind the target animal.

It will kill both
My Hero! If I were not retired I would Aspire to be @Altitude sickness
 
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@Altitude sickness sorry double is not for sale. I shot a wart hog at 249 yards and dropped it first shot a couple months back. My PH was surprised. On our first day he asked me if I would use my Dads bolt action if we got a shot at a kudu over 100 yards. After the wart hog kill I kept getting compliments in camp from others. He must have been telling everyone. LOL
 
@michael458 looks like they are the lever version. They measure 1.043 inches. I have not tried any others.
 
The SS raptor is no longer showing on cutting edges web page.
 
I know that all the younger hunters these days are quite dismissive towards the concept of sectional density. I respect that. And to be fair, my views on prioritizing sectional density when choosing a big game hunting bullet... can be rather outdated in modern times.

But come on. 295Gr is far too light a weight for a .458 caliber dangerous game cartridge.

For .458 Winchester Magnum, I would personally go no lighter than 450Gr (in a monometal bullet like the Barnes TSX or Cutting Edge Bullets Safari Solid) or 480Gr (in a lead cored bullet like the Wim Degol Vor Mantel).

In the .458 Winchester Magnum, my preferred Cape buffalo hunting bullet would have to be the 450Gr Barnes TSX.
 
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I know that all the younger hunters these days are quite dismissive towards the concept of sectional density. I respect that. And to be fair, my views on prioritizing sectional density when choosing a big game hunting bullet... can be rather outdated in modern times.

But come on. 295Gr is far too light a weight for a .458 caliber dangerous game cartridge.

For .458 Winchester Magnum, I would personally go no lighter than 450Gr (in a monometal bullet like the Barnes TSX or Cutting Edge Bullets Safari Solid) or 480Gr (in a lead cored bullet like the Wim Degol Vor Mantel).

In the .458 Winchester Magnum, my preferred Cape buffalo hunting bullet would have to be the 450Gr Barnes TSX.
You are comparing two different types of material.

Sectional density means nothing in that comparison. It has nothing to do with out dated or modern times.
Comparing sectional density of two different materials is USELESS.

Even back in the Stone Age ;)

Your preference still stands valid and your experience is true.

To cheer you up I’m a young man but just got some old 220 grain core-lokts for my Ruger #1 in 30-06. Hope to shoot a Nilgai with that set up soon,Cheers :D Cheers:
 
I plan on using 450 grain Swift AFrames out of my 458 Win Mag on buffalo here in about 6 weeks. I’ve paired them with 500 grain Nosler solids. The AFrames are sighted in a touch high and the solids are a touch low, I assume due to the difference in weight, but both are within 2 inches of each other and I have been practicing with them and feel real good about my chances if I het a crack at one, if I do my part the bullets will do theirs.
 
But come on. 295Gr is far too light a weight for a .458 caliber dangerous game cartridge.
@Hunter-Habib I completely understand your thoughts here, I would have been exactly the same 15 years ago, and actually had lots of reservations myself until putting similar bullets to buffalo. Let me explain;

First, for this exercise I am keeping this directed to TWO Objectives. 458 and Buffalo only.......

If thinking in Conventional expanding Trauma inflicting bullets only, then @Hunter-Habib and I are on exactly the same page. In 458 Winchester I like the 450 Swift or North Fork, either one. Both will hit broadside and do damage, and both will be found on the far side under the hide. They can both get up enough velocity in 458 Winchester to do the job, and then backup with a good solid, today either CEB #13s or North Forks.... No question about it. I would probably do the same in larger capacity like the Lott as well..... I shot several buffalo with the Lott and 500 Swifts, also recovered some of those on the far side too......... backed in those days by 500 Barnes Solids, and 2005 by the FN Versions. I have shot buffalo with 500 Woodlieghs as well, same story, recovered a few of those as well. Those were conventional days, and this is where we started gathering information from test work to gain comparisons and get correlation data between the two.

In 2009 I started doing a lot of shooting with the First Generation Copper CNC HP bullets. Conventional beliefs and teachings always taught us that once a bullet starts shedding weight that this was bad, you would loose penetration, loose effectiveness and it was just bad and a failure if your bullet started breaking apart loosing weight! RIght? Yes........... I was more or less forced into this by trying to come up with suitable DG Bullets for my .500s...... I tested, petals/blades break off, but I was having a hard time reading the tea leaves. What I was finding in the test work, before going to the field with these, that I was getting deeper penetration than Conventional wisdom told me I could get? In fact, deeper than conventionals in .458? On top of that, I was getting more trauma in medium as well? Deeper Penetration? How, all the petals and blades sheared? First time to the field I knew I did not have enough bullet for buffalo, I would have to be careful and take my shots accordingly........ that was until the first buffalo shot, and these bullets were burning through buffalo like they were hot butter, and destroying everything in their path to pieces. Buffalo stand and quiver many times...... I had more than enough bullet, exits were common.......... The light bulb finally came on..........First Generation Copper CNC would now be CEB Maximus and Hammer Bullets as examples.

Next were the Raptors, What I call 2cd Generation CNC...... I like brass and most of them are brass, but some copper Raptors exist but have to be manipulated to behave like a Brass Raptor. Brass Raptors Shear BLADES at 1.5 to 2 inches inside any aqueoua tissue or test medium, these are not petals, they slice and dice everything in their path, and radiate aways from center, center bullet becomes a full caliber broken beer bottle solid and continues to penetrate dead straight. Massive trauma is inflicted, blades slice vessels, tissues, organs everything to pieces. In a buffalo .458 caliber Raptors these blades can be found in the goo that comes out of the chest cavity at the skinning shed, but you have to do some sifting through all the blood, gore and goo left behind. If that shot was broadside, it is unlikely you will find a center bullet, but you will find a nice full caliber hole going out the far side. CEB makes a 450 Solid, that is just superb in all 458 caliber cartridges, its matching Raptor is 420 gr. It is the premier Buffalo bullet for 458 caliber, and many a buffalo has been put in the dirt with them. The 420 Raptor IS the 450 Solid just with a big hollow cavity. Same length, same bearing surface. Before this time, I had a theory, make the solid, then give it a hollow point .4 inches deep and we had to adjust each caliber cavity width to get proper shear, the thought was to have the same bullet, and with the same load you would have the same POI at 50 yards. Most try to manipulate the weight to get this, but this would have caused issues with CNC brass and copper. By making bearing surface and length the same as the solid, you have the same POI with the same load...... It worked.

From my Conventional Wisdom Days, I determined a proper buffalo bullet had to penetrate in my test medium here, from 18 inches +........ The best penetration I ever acheived was 500 gr Swift A Frames at 24 inches....... so a minimum was set in my mind, 18-24 inches in my medium, we had a buffalo bullet, and I pretty much keep that to this day. After many a bovine shot, both cape and asiatic we learned a few things along the way. I never changed this minimum because of these new Non Conventional Bullets, but we probably could to an extent, but we are very safe staying with these numbers even with Non Cons......

This is why I said above that if careful, the 295 Raptor will be fine on buffalo with a perfect broadside, but I have some reservations about severe angled shots. And also, perhaps I am being a little conservative on this, because it is YOU, and not me. Me, I would do crazy things, but you I want to not have any problems. I have almost no doubt, broadside 295 Raptor can exit, and will most of the time.

In 2013 I was testing the new 250 Socom Raptors in the field, I had shot several Zebra, wildebeast and so forth in my 18 inch 458 B&M. I was running the 250 Raptors at 2900 fps, and just lucky in this gun POI was close enough at 50 yards matching the 420 Raptors and the 450 Solids, so I could pick and choose the bullet, not change the sight systems............. This 250 Socom Raptor was doing one hell of a number on large plains game....... it was ripping them to pieces, and zebra would drop to the shot consistently, I never had one run after taking the hit. Same with everything else as well......... I even had to use one for the biggest hippo I had ever taken, but it was a brain shot at 15 steps, and 100+ yards from the shore line. The brain shot was incredible, squirting brain out both ear holes 6 feet in both directions........

So, I wanted to see what would happen with this 250 Socom .458 caliber bullet on buffalo! We found a good shot at a Cow buffalo, I was careful, I made a deliberate shot behind the shoulder. This proved effective. After we did find the base of the 250 Socom on the far side in the hide, it did not exit. But it did make it all the way through. OK the remaining bullet from a .458 caliber 250 gr bullet had just penetrated as deep as I have seen 500 gr Swift A Frames in .458 caliber..... Let that sink in for a second! I only recovered two 250 gr Socom Raptors, one behind the skull of the hippo, and this bullet on far side of cow buffalo..........

DSC09694-L.jpg


Now, I would not recommend the 250 Socom for buffalo. But if careful, it could be done in a pinch.

I believe, but I am not 100% certain that the 295 Raptor test I showed above was done with the bullets not having the Talon Tips installed. I am looking at tests done with the 300 ESP Raptor, Enhanced System Projectile..... meaning Raptor on one end, and #13 Solid on the other end, it can be loaded either way.........

DSC00367-M.jpg


DSC00365-M.jpg


DSC00368-M.jpg


Take particular note that the increased velocity at 48 yards with Talon Tip installed, the increase in penetration. This is definitely no doubt about it absolutely Buffalo Capable ................. and you can also use the solid to reasonable effect for buffalo. The Nose projection on the solid end is short and this is its main limitation.

Now, here is the reason that the 420 Raptor is very much a serious buffalo bullet........... The only one I ever recovered was a frontal chest shot, and the bullet was finally found just behind the stomach of that buffalo....... easy 4 ft of penetration, and had to completely traverse all the stomach contents............

DSC09053-L.jpg


DSC03518-X2.jpg


DSC03529-X2.jpg


There is no conventional expanding bullet that would have penetrated that stomach completely.

Remember, 500 Swift A Frame, 458 Lott, 2270 fps penetrated to 24 inches in my test medium...........

DSC07516-L.jpg


I was asked to do some research on the 400 gr Hammer in .458 Caliber in 458 Winchester. I actually did a lot of pressure data with various powders and loads, but ended up doing the Terminal tests with B&Ms........... After doing the Terminals with the 400 Hammer I declared it "Buffalo Capable".......... later at least a couple of guys used the 400 Hammer on buffalo with extreme success, I was told the bullets "Hammered Buffalo to the Dirt"................ This is an example of Generation 1 Tech...... 400 gr Bullet on buffalo......

DSCN3281-X2.jpg


DSCN3273-X2.jpg


Now, there are two other types of Non Conventional bullets that I know would be effective, the Expanding CPS North Forks and the Lehigh Extremes. I have used the Expanding North Forks on buffalo in .500 caliber and in .474 caliber, I believe the two CPS in .458 would easy be buffalo capable..............

DSC04679-L.jpg


DSC04677-L.jpg


DSC04675-L.jpg


If I were not retired I would also put the Lehigh Extremes up against buffalo..........

Lehigh makes a 225 gr, 250 gr and 325 gr Extreme............ and from what I can see here, they do what they say they can do............

Last fall I had a friend that used a 250 gr Lehigh Extreme in his 458 B&M at 2900 fps for Bison. It was one shot, less than 50 yards, and DRT on the spot....... His statement "This is a Deadly Bullet"..... no bullet recovered............

DSCN9162-X2.jpg


DSCN9155-X2.jpg
 
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I have very little Buffalo experience. One with a bow
My wife’s Cow and my recent bull and Cow

My wife shot her cow with a pre 64 model 70 in .375 H&H using a 300 grain TSX At 60 ish yards,

she hit the cow 1/3 of the way up, straight up the leg in the shoulder. She went approx 10 yards and took approximately :2 to die then bellowed.

I shot my bull with a .416 Taylor. 370 grain safari Raptor at 50ish yards

I hit the bull in the same spot as my wife’s cow. 1/3 the way straight up the leg. He basically stumbled and fell down hill, feet or several yards. He was dead almost instantly, no bellow.

The raptor devastated the heart and lungs. And went through the bull hitting an unseen cow in the brush. The PH and I did not see the cow. The tracker told the PH he saw a cow run up hill with the herd acting wounded.

We assumed he was mistaken since we did not see animals behind my bull.

When we saw the Raptor had gone through the bull. We thought we better go take a look at where the tracker thought he saw the cow.

Sure enough we immediately found blood. She was laying dead exactly where the tracker last saw her.
60 yards from the shot.

The bulls exit hole
IMG_4651.jpeg
 
@Hunter-Habib I completely understand your thoughts here, I would have been exactly the same 15 years ago, and actually had lots of reservations myself until putting similar bullets to buffalo. Let me explain;

First, for this exercise I am keeping this directed to TWO Objectives. 458 and Buffalo only.......

If thinking in Conventional expanding Trauma inflicting bullets only, then @Hunter-Habib and I are on exactly the same page. In 458 Winchester I like the 450 Swift or North Fork, either one. Both will hit broadside and do damage, and both will be found on the far side under the hide. They can both get up enough velocity in 458 Winchester to do the job, and then backup with a good solid, today either CEB #13s or North Forks.... No question about it. I would probably do the same in larger capacity like the Lott as well..... I shot several buffalo with the Lott and 500 Swifts, also recovered some of those on the far side too......... backed in those days by 500 Barnes Solids, and 2005 by the FN Versions. I have shot buffalo with 500 Woodlieghs as well, same story, recovered a few of those as well. Those were conventional days, and this is where we started gathering information from test work to gain comparisons and get correlation data between the two.

In 2009 I started doing a lot of shooting with the First Generation Copper CNC HP bullets. Conventional beliefs and teachings always taught us that once a bullet starts shedding weight that this was bad, you would loose penetration, loose effectiveness and it was just bad and a failure if your bullet started breaking apart loosing weight! RIght? Yes........... I was more or less forced into this by trying to come up with suitable DG Bullets for my .500s...... I tested, petals/blades break off, but I was having a hard time reading the tea leaves. What I was finding in the test work, before going to the field with these, that I was getting deeper penetration than Conventional wisdom told me I could get? In fact, deeper than conventionals in .458? On top of that, I was getting more trauma in medium as well? Deeper Penetration? How, all the petals and blades sheared? First time to the field I knew I did not have enough bullet for buffalo, I would have to be careful and take my shots accordingly........ that was until the first buffalo shot, and these bullets were burning through buffalo like they were hot butter, and destroying everything in their path to pieces. Buffalo stand and quiver many times...... I had more than enough bullet, exits were common.......... The light bulb finally came on..........First Generation Copper CNC would now be CEB Maximus and Hammer Bullets as examples.

Next were the Raptors, What I call 2cd Generation CNC...... I like brass and most of them are brass, but some copper Raptors exist but have to be manipulated to behave like a Brass Raptor. Brass Raptors Shear BLADES at 1.5 to 2 inches inside any aqueoua tissue or test medium, these are not petals, they slice and dice everything in their path, and radiate aways from center, center bullet becomes a full caliber broken beer bottle solid and continues to penetrate dead straight. Massive trauma is inflicted, blades slice vessels, tissues, organs everything to pieces. In a buffalo .458 caliber Raptors these blades can be found in the goo that comes out of the chest cavity at the skinning shed, but you have to do some sifting through all the blood, gore and goo left behind. If that shot was broadside, it is unlikely you will find a center bullet, but you will find a nice full caliber hole going out the far side. CEB makes a 450 Solid, that is just superb in all 458 caliber cartridges, its matching Raptor is 420 gr. It is the premier Buffalo bullet for 458 caliber, and many a buffalo has been put in the dirt with them. The 420 Raptor IS the 450 Solid just with a big hollow cavity. Same length, same bearing surface. Before this time, I had a theory, make the solid, then give it a hollow point .4 inches deep and we had to adjust each caliber cavity width to get proper shear, the thought was to have the same bullet, and with the same load you would have the same POI at 50 yards. Most try to manipulate the weight to get this, but this would have caused issues with CNC brass and copper. By making bearing surface and length the same as the solid, you have the same POI with the same load...... It worked.

From my Conventional Wisdom Days, I determined a proper buffalo bullet had to penetrate in my test medium here, from 18 inches +........ The best penetration I ever acheived was 500 gr Swift A Frames at 24 inches....... so a minimum was set in my mind, 18-24 inches in my medium, we had a buffalo bullet, and I pretty much keep that to this day. After many a bovine shot, both cape and asiatic we learned a few things along the way. I never changed this minimum because of these new Non Conventional Bullets, but we probably could to an extent, but we are very safe staying with these numbers even with Non Cons......

This is why I said above that if careful, the 295 Raptor will be fine on buffalo with a perfect broadside, but I have some reservations about severe angled shots. And also, perhaps I am being a little conservative on this, because it is YOU, and not me. Me, I would do crazy things, but you I want to not have any problems. I have almost no doubt, broadside 295 Raptor can exit, and will most of the time.

In 2013 I was testing the new 250 Socom Raptors in the field, I had shot several Zebra, wildebeast and so forth in my 18 inch 458 B&M. I was running the 250 Raptors at 2900 fps, and just lucky in this gun POI was close enough at 50 yards matching the 420 Raptors and the 450 Solids, so I could pick and choose the bullet, not change the sight systems............. This 250 Socom Raptor was doing one hell of a number on large plains game....... it was ripping them to pieces, and zebra would drop to the shot consistently, I never had one run after taking the hit. Same with everything else as well......... I even had to use one for the biggest hippo I had ever taken, but it was a brain shot at 15 steps, and 100+ yards from the shore line. The brain shot was incredible, squirting brain out both ear holes 6 feet in both directions........

So, I wanted to see what would happen with this 250 Socom .458 caliber bullet on buffalo! We found a good shot at a Cow buffalo, I was careful, I made a deliberate shot behind the shoulder. This proved effective. After we did find the base of the 250 Socom on the far side in the hide, it did not exit. But it did make it all the way through. OK the remaining bullet from a .458 caliber 250 gr bullet had just penetrated as deep as I have seen 500 gr Swift A Frames in .458 caliber..... Let that sink in for a second! I only recovered two 250 gr Socom Raptors, one behind the skull of the hippo, and this bullet on far side of cow buffalo..........

View attachment 619002

Now, I would not recommend the 250 Socom for buffalo. But if careful, it could be done in a pinch.

I believe, but I am not 100% certain that the 295 Raptor test I showed above was done with the bullets not having the Talon Tips installed. I am looking at tests done with the 300 ESP Raptor, Enhanced System Projectile..... meaning Raptor on one end, and #13 Solid on the other end, it can be loaded either way.........

View attachment 618992

View attachment 618991

View attachment 618993

Take particular note that the increased velocity at 48 yards with Talon Tip installed, the increase in penetration. This is definitely no doubt about it absolutely Buffalo Capable ................. and you can also use the solid to reasonable effect for buffalo. The Nose projection on the solid end is short and this is its main limitation.

Now, here is the reason that the 420 Raptor is very much a serious buffalo bullet........... The only one I ever recovered was a frontal chest shot, and the bullet was finally found just behind the stomach of that buffalo....... easy 4 ft of penetration, and had to completely traverse all the stomach contents............

View attachment 619001

View attachment 618994

View attachment 618996

There is no conventional expanding bullet that would have penetrated that stomach completely.

Remember, 500 Swift A Frame, 458 Lott, 2270 fps penetrated to 24 inches in my test medium...........

View attachment 619000

I was asked to do some research on the 400 gr Hammer in .458 Caliber in 458 Winchester. I actually did a lot of pressure data with various powders and loads, but ended up doing the Terminal tests with B&Ms........... After doing the Terminals with the 400 Hammer I declared it "Buffalo Capable".......... later at least a couple of guys used the 400 Hammer on buffalo with extreme success, I was told the bullets "Hammered Buffalo to the Dirt"................ This is an example of Generation 1 Tech...... 400 gr Bullet on buffalo......

View attachment 619004

View attachment 619003

Now, there are two other types of Non Conventional bullets that I know would be effective, the Expanding CPS North Forks and the Lehigh Extremes. I have used the Expanding North Forks on buffalo in .500 caliber and in .474 caliber, I believe the two CPS in .458 would easy be buffalo capable..............

View attachment 618999

View attachment 618998

View attachment 618997

If I were not retired I would also put the Lehigh Extremes up against buffalo..........

Lehigh makes a 225 gr, 250 gr and 325 gr Extreme............ and from what I can see here, they do what they say they can do............

Last fall I had a friend that used a 250 gr Lehigh Extreme in his 458 B&M at 2900 fps for Bison. It was one shot, less than 50 yards, and DRT on the spot....... His statement "This is a Deadly Bullet"..... no bullet recovered............

View attachment 619006

View attachment 619005
We learn something new every single day. Thank you so much, @michael458

You're a true treasure trove of knowledge and a highly valuable team player on these forums.
 
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Have you tried the 420gr Raptors and 450gr solids? Those 420s are also devastating on buffalo and would penetrate from any angle without having to be so careful.
I have not, but I’m thinking I need to. I don’t want marginal. Seems most things don’t go text book perfect in the field.
@Mountaineer ........ Yes, if you have time and can get it done, the 420 Raptor/450 CEB #13 Solid is The GOLD STANDARD for Buffalo in .458 caliber. You don't need heavier weight in either Raptor/Solid at all. And right, you would not have to be as careful, as I would like you to be, even though I believe you would probably be OK, but I rather you move to the side of Gold Standard zero concerns than not. This buffalo combination is so good, I recommend it in 458 Lott and any other larger capacity cartridge........

Back to the 295 Raptor..... just FYI ......... By adding a Talon Tip, this adds at Impact Velocity, and will add depth of penetration and will add trauma inflicted. I don't think there is any relative difference in Terminal effect between the Lever Raptor and the SS Raptor. The SS Raptor I designed to work in my 458 B&M Super Short (Hence the SS) It has a longer nose projection like the 325 SS Solid at .600 above the top band. Lever is at .470 or there abouts, so as to feed/function in the lever guns where it has to be seated deeper. The 295 does not come up short anywhere else or not any concern for plains game, would be great for lion/bear and do anything you need on anything lesser than buffalo....... and I would use it on buffalo, but would be careful with that first shot, and I damn sure would pour the 325 Solids to him after that..... The 325 Solids are great bullets, but you definitely want the SS version, it does make a difference in solids.... Nose projection.

And, who knows until you try, POI of the 295s/325s might not be that far off the 420/450s.... the 420/450s need to shoot POI/POA close at around 50 yards, not much of a big worry past that, never know until you do.

@Altitude sickness ........ I truly get a kick out of your Two for One Adventure. We used to shoot prairie dogs in Montana, had a blast, lots of shooting, lots of fun......with the 223 I always endeavored to line up two and three for one shot....... I needed a better bullet, shooting 55 Nosler BTs they always blew before Prairie Dog #3...... I would get two, but never three....... Should have had some Raptors I reckon........

I was never that lucky to get two buffalo for one shot, or that skilled. And now retired from hunting probably never get the chance....... Well done I think....... Others who cry about such things, gnash teeth and wring hands in anguish and concern are silly........ If they don't want it to happen, be careful, if it does happen, MAN UP.......... Me, I would go for it if I could get them lined up just perfect. I would Aspire to Be @Altitude sickness when I grow up! HEH HEH...........

Now, next and I swear I will get out of your hair........ @Hunter-Habib mentioned something about Sectional Density I would like to address, but will do in a second post so as not to confuse this one.... since its sort of a separate subject, but still related to Conventional -- Non Conventional
 

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