45-70 for dangerous game?

[Tundra Tiger]

@pamtnman ... I don't have my load data in front of me. I believe I used 3031, so maybe not helpful to you. I was getting 1850 on my chronograph, out of my GBL. I was sighted in for 75 yards, at the suggestion of my PH. It shot very well with this load at that distance. The bottom photo is the bullet that came out of my cow; it was lodged just under the skin on the far side. It busted a bunch of ribs and took out her heart. (the other is the 180 grain Accubond that came out of my kudu; 220 yards with a .300 Savage) For those who saw the second Hellboy movie, I joke that this was my Golden Army.

 

[Tokoloshe Safaris]

I doubt that few PHs in countries that have free ranging buffalo with strict regulations would condone the use of substandard calibers or muzzle energy. I wrote few not all.
If you do end up doing a free ranging buff hunt. I hope you post a very detailed hunt report.

Lon

 

[pamtnman]

Impressive results! Good stuff and very helpful, Tundra Tiger, thank you. I really like seeing where you crimped. CEB gives some directions about crimping this bullet, which is obviously a range determined by which powder is used and how much of it, as well as the weight and composition of the bullet. I chose the CEB 325-grain solid because it seems to be the reasonable point between weight and velocity, as determined by how much propellant can be fit into the case. All of the research I have done on this bullet indicates R7 or IMR4198 as the basic propellants, and 2015 or 10X if you can get enough into the case. Really appreciate your help.

 

[Tundra Tiger]

Those may well be terrific powders. I am hamstrung to some degree by where I live, and thus, by what I have on hand.

 

[crs]

Unlikely you could stuff a 45-90 in a Marlin 336."

NO PTOBLEM! ALL MY .45 CALIBER RIFLES ARE EITHER WINCHESTER OR DOUBLES.

 

[pamtnman]

Those may well be terrific powders. I am hamstrung to some degree by where I live, and thus, by what I have on hand.

the plight of all Alaskans, leavened by your proximity to beautiful wilderness and lots of cool and tasty wildlife

 

[AustinM]

Unlikely you could stuff a 45-90 in a Marlin 336."

NO PTOBLEM! ALL MY .45 CALIBER RIFLES ARE EITHER WINCHESTER OR DOUBLES.

I have a 45-90 on the modern Marlin 1895 (same reciever as the 336), it can be done and is nothing short of impressive.

 

[roklok]

I have an 22 inch 1895 Marlin. Using data in the Speer #11 manual, max load of 52 grains of RL7 under a 400 grain Speer flat nose, I was getting 2060 FPS. The manual shows this load producing 1860 FPS out of the same rifle. I was getting 200 FPS more than the "book". I used this load for a while, and killed some Alaskan game. It kicked HARD in the 7ish pound Marlin. A 400 grain at 2060 FPS is roughly equivalent to original load for .404 Jeffery among others, of course I am well aware of differences in bullet SD, construction, etc. My point is, even in a Marlin a .45-70 can churn out some power. There were no pressure signs and no sticky extraction. Some years later I read somewhere that the newer RL7 was "hotter" than the old RL7, and the old data should not be used. Probably why I was getting 200 FPS more than book some 20 years after publication of Speer #11. Speer number 13 published in 1998 lists 45 grains of RL7 as max under a 400 grain bullet. I will be taking my .375 to Namibia this year for buffalo, but I have no doubt that a modern solid out of a properly loaded 45-70 would be up to the task, as compared to many traditional express cartridges used in the past century.

 

[michael458]

I have an 22 inch 1895 Marlin. Using data in the Speer #11 manual, max load of 52 grains of RL7 under a 400 grain Speer flat nose, I was getting 2060 FPS. The manual shows this load producing 1860 FPS out of the same rifle. I was getting 200 FPS more than the "book".

I assume that "The Book" data was using a 22 inch barrel as well? Being equal in barrel length across the board...... ? At this moment I am not even sure I have a Speer #11, and even if so I have not looked at a load manual in 20 years I don't think....... so I really don't know the answer to my question. Example, if the book was using 18 inch barrel, that would explain some of the increase in velocity, 100-125 fps or so ........

Unfortunately I have not tested a flat base 400-405 conventional in recent years. I have an 18 inch gun set up to test pressures, but I am way behind on 45/70 data. The last tests I did was with the 400 CEB Lever Solid and we can use 45-46 gr of RL 7 (Depending on the BLEND of RL 7--discuss this next) until we hit 45000 PSI which about as much as you want to push a Marlin on average. In a 2014 test and Blend of RL 7 we used 46/RL 7 and the 400 Solid for 1821 fps at 47000 PSI, and 48/RL 7 for 1895 fps and 52000 PSI, both over max pressures. But, keep in mind, this 400 CEB Lever Solid has to be seated very deep to meet overall length for the Marlin action, there is more bullet in the case than a 400-405 conventional flat base bullet, which makes it a tad more difficult to load.

Even with your longer 22 inch barrel I would say at 52/RL 7 and the 400 Speer you were somewhat over max just by the velocity..... 4 inches more barrel should put you around a gain of 100-125 fps

Also, all lever guns are not created equal.......... I have had Marlins and WInchesters that would handle much more pressure than another just like it. I have had loads in one gun that worked perfect, and take them to another, same make, model and cartridge, and it would lock them up tight. In the Marlins if you keep them at 45000 PSI or less, then I have not seen any of them have issues.

The Reloader, RL powders are notorious for serious differences, and it can be from one container to the next, regardless of Lot # or date of manufacture. RL Powders are great, but you have to be aware of these issues or you will eventually find yourself in a bind. Other powders can also experience differences, but I have not found them as excessive as the RL's. For this reason I normally blend several pounds of RL together, then do some pressure tests with various cartridges to see where this Blend is. Now, obviously everyone does not have pressure equipment to work with. What you can do is just keep an eye on your velocity. If your velocity is lower, or higher than the last blend you checked, then you can adjust for that. Remember, there are no free rides, and it is very rare you will find a magic powder that will give you MORE VELOCITY and LESS PRESSURES......... Magic powders are very rare and elusive. If you are getting higher velocity than expected, you can bet your ass you are also getting added pressures.............

You take all your RL 7 powder, pour it in a clean dry 5 gallon bucket, and mix that..................

One well mixed, you repackage and label the Blend...... I use the date that it was blended..... and then you test that against known loads from the previous blend............

Remember, all RL 7 is not created Equal. All Lever guns, same make, model, and cartridge, are not created equal. And the list goes on...........

For those with Winchester 1886 and M71s that have been coverted to larger caliber, these guns are stronger than the Marlin action and can easily handle at least 50000 PSI, perhaps a tad more. I more or less left my 45/70s behind many years ago, using my 50 B&M Alaskans, true .500 caliber. Caliber makes a difference.........

 

[pamtnman]

I assume that "The Book" data was using a 22 inch barrel as well? Being equal in barrel length across the board...... ? At this moment I am not even sure I have a Speer #11, and even if so I have not looked at a load manual in 20 years I don't think....... so I really don't know the answer to my question. Example, if the book was using 18 inch barrel, that would explain some of the increase in velocity, 100-125 fps or so ........

Unfortunately I have not tested a flat base 400-405 conventional in recent years. I have an 18 inch gun set up to test pressures, but I am way behind on 45/70 data. The last tests I did was with the 400 CEB Lever Solid and we can use 45-46 gr of RL 7 (Depending on the BLEND of RL 7--discuss this next) until we hit 45000 PSI which about as much as you want to push a Marlin on average. In a 2014 test and Blend of RL 7 we used 46/RL 7 and the 400 Solid for 1821 fps at 47000 PSI, and 48/RL 7 for 1895 fps and 52000 PSI, both over max pressures. But, keep in mind, this 400 CEB Lever Solid has to be seated very deep to meet overall length for the Marlin action, there is more bullet in the case than a 400-405 conventional flat base bullet, which makes it a tad more difficult to load.

Even with your longer 22 inch barrel I would say at 52/RL 7 and the 400 Speer you were somewhat over max just by the velocity..... 4 inches more barrel should put you around a gain of 100-125 fps

Also, all lever guns are not created equal.......... I have had Marlins and WInchesters that would handle much more pressure than another just like it. I have had loads in one gun that worked perfect, and take them to another, same make, model and cartridge, and it would lock them up tight. In the Marlins if you keep them at 45000 PSI or less, then I have not seen any of them have issues.

The Reloader, RL powders are notorious for serious differences, and it can be from one container to the next, regardless of Lot # or date of manufacture. RL Powders are great, but you have to be aware of these issues or you will eventually find yourself in a bind. Other powders can also experience differences, but I have not found them as excessive as the RL's. For this reason I normally blend several pounds of RL together, then do some pressure tests with various cartridges to see where this Blend is. Now, obviously everyone does not have pressure equipment to work with. What you can do is just keep an eye on your velocity. If your velocity is lower, or higher than the last blend you checked, then you can adjust for that. Remember, there are no free rides, and it is very rare you will find a magic powder that will give you MORE VELOCITY and LESS PRESSURES......... Magic powders are very rare and elusive. If you are getting higher velocity than expected, you can bet your ass you are also getting added pressures.............

You take all your RL 7 powder, pour it in a clean dry 5 gallon bucket, and mix that..................

One well mixed, you repackage and label the Blend...... I use the date that it was blended..... and then you test that against known loads from the previous blend............

Remember, all RL 7 is not created Equal. All Lever guns, same make, model, and cartridge, are not created equal. And the list goes on...........

For those with Winchester 1886 and M71s that have been coverted to larger caliber, these guns are stronger than the Marlin action and can easily handle at least 50000 PSI, perhaps a tad more. I more or less left my 45/70s behind many years ago, using my 50 B&M Alaskans, true .500 caliber. Caliber makes a difference.........

Dude, bringing receipts! This awesome post is what the confluence of data and field reports looks like. And because the data development part can be so detailed and even complicated, it’s easy to understand why so many of us just fall back on fifty year old data and the fifty year old opinions that accompany it. Separately, if someone like Ruger Marlin made the updated 1895 SBL in a truly thumper 50 caliber, like your rifle has here, I would quickly discard the 45-70 in favor of it. I just really like everything about the new 1895 SBL.
Again, fabulous post, Michael. Thank you

 

[BeeMaa]

45-70 on DG? no. Not even in the conversation. a DG gun needs to be a stopping rifle. u might kill that griz u shot with your 45-70, but if not anchored and he get to u, he has enough oxygen in his brain to maul u before he flops over. never never an option.

A dangerous game rifle for a client visiting hunter does NOT need to be a “stopping” caliber.

Most would consider the stopping calibers to start at 458WM or 470NE…and up from there. It’s unrealistic for every visiting hunter to be capable of shooting such a caliber accurately and with effectiveness. These calibers are an absolute necessity for a PH, but not for a client.

Instead, most will choose a .375 caliber (or 9.3 where legal or something in the low .40’s like a 416RM or 404J. The lever action has its place as well, as long as it’s a part of the conversation with your PH from the beginning. If the PH says no, the answer is no or it’s your choice to find another outfitter.

So yes, the 45-70 and other lever gun calibers are options…with qualifiers.

 

[roklok]

Excellent post Michael458 ! It is clear that you have taken analyzing load data and performance to the next level. I have never had more than a few pounds of RL7 at a time.

Yes, the Speer #11 manual uses a 22" Marlin 1895, that's what I meant by same rifle. My 1895 is also a 22", not sure 1895s came any different from the factory back in the 80s when Speer #11 was published. There may have been longer versions, but that was before the "guide gun" was introduced. Aside from the differences in RL7, the Speer #11 manual has the reputation as having data on the "warmer" side. A lot of the data was reduced in later versions across the board. At any rate, I worked up to published maximum without any problems, but when I later chronographed the load I found out why recoil was as nasty as it was. 2060 FPS, exactly 200 FPS more than the book.

 

[pamtnman]

Excellent post Michael458 ! It is clear that you have taken analyzing load data and performance to the next level. I have never had more than a few pounds of RL7 at a time.View attachment 578723 Yes, the Speer #11 manual uses a 22" Marlin 1895, that's what I meant by same rifle. My 1895 is also a 22", not sure 1895s came any different from the factory back in the 80s when Speer #11 was published. There may have been longer versions, but that was before the "guide gun" was introduced. Aside from the differences in RL7, the Speer #11 manual has the reputation as having data on the "warmer" side. A lot of the data was reduced in later versions across the board. At any rate, I worked up to published maximum without any problems, but when I later chronographed the load I found out why recoil was as nasty as it was. 2060 FPS, exactly 200 FPS more than the book.

Here is the Lyman black powder manual that shows their lowest power 45-70 loadings:

 

[Beck]

Something about a square peg and a round hole.

 

[F. Vaccaro]

I like IMR3031 in the Marlin 95. It works well loaded down for practice/fun loads too.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

I know they are not apples to apples. But my thinking is what you lack in one area (fps) you make up in another (energy). 45-70 is usually loaded light. Hornady only makes dangerous game bullets .458 @ 500gr. If you propel that at 2000 fps+....that's arround 4400 ft lbs of energy. That is more equal. I didn't explain myself well enough. I am not a reloader so this may not even be possible!. I read in another forum of 2200 fps and a 500 gr bullet from a 45-70. That's equal to 5400 ft lbs. That will kill your shoulder as well as a buffalo. Again this could all be fantasy because I don't know how true or even if that is possible?

@RickB
2,200 fps out of a 45-70 with a 500 grainer just ain't gonna happen. 1,600 to 1,700 maybe.
The 45-70 just hasn't got the powder room.
Bob

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

The 45-70 was the choice of NA buffalo hunters and renouned for being able to go end for end on a Buffalo at 1000 paces. True or not the near extinction of once uncountable numbers of animals is tribute to the 45-70s ability to get the job done on big tough game.

@Diamondhitch
During the decimation of the buffalo the 45-70 wasn't the only player on the pitch. Yes it shot a lot but there were other calibers that killed a,whole skew if them as well. You had the big Sharpe's round and others like the 45-90, 40-65 and others I can't remember.
Bob

 

[F. Vaccaro]

@Diamondhitch
During the decimation of the buffalo the 45-70 wasn't the only player on the pitch. Yes it shot a lot but there were other calibers that killed a,whole skew if them as well. You had the big Sharpe's round and others like the 45-90, 40-65 and others I can't remember.
Bob

I have read the Govt. was encouraging the decimation of the Bison. Remove the food supply & the enemy is hamstrung. I’ve also read the .50-70 was issued civilians for that purpose, & had just been decommissioned, replaced by the .45-70. I suspect a fair amount of Springfield Trap Doors were actually used hunting Bison.

As for loading the .45-70 hot, a 500gr bullet would have to be seated very deeply to function in the 95 Marlin. I have run the 500 gr Hornaday RN at a chronographed 1800fps in a Ruger #1 .45-70. It wasn’t fun & could likely detach a retina. I get just over 1700fps in my 95 using IMR3031 & the REM. 405gr SP With no pressure. Haven’t taken an elk, but it was a quartering pass through on a Mule deer.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

The 9.3x62 is sometimes quoted as having some factory loads that develop over 4k energy. Personally having spent some time developing loads for this round; I dont buy it. In the later editions of Cartridges of the World the editor made note of this, writing (optimistic) after loads that made such claims. It is after all only slightly larger of a case than the '06. And even though there are those who make similar claims for the .35 Whelen (not larger than the '06 case) and say its no big deal to get nearly 4k energy with it too.. Well? Years ago when Kenya and probably Tanzania as well decreed the .375 H&H as minimum for DG, they allowed the 9.3 to continue to be used in the hands of the locals. I dont know if that still stands today or in what other countries it may also be true.

@sestoppelman
As you know I can easily break the 4,000fpe with my 35 Whelen.
Loaded with 275gn gn Woodleigh it's as near as dam it to that and a 310gn Woodleigh RNSP or solid goes horribly close as well at 2,400fps. Those big 310s with an sd of .346 should penetrate well. The Woodleigh solid has a flat meplat with a lead core covered by a steel jacket then bonded to a copper jacket.
Would I use it on DG if allowed, hell yes.
Is it ideal NO
will it do the job YES.
If the 9.3x62 can do it so can the Whelen
These are my opinions and that don't count for much because I'm a bit crazy anyway.
Bob

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

There ya go. I would bet money however that if you ran those over a chrony it would say otherwise. What was the specific load and bullet weight?

@sestoppelman
310gn Woodleigh RNSP over the chrony

Best load, very accurate but recoil was very noticeable
A more comfortable load still very accurate and plenty of power

Bob