.375 vs .404 jeffry

[WAB]

I think some veteran members also should read and take note.

Fifty-nine years ago I started hunting. I took to it with a passion almost immediately. But I was raised in a middle class home by parents who were raised in the Great Depression. For us hunting was more than a hobby/source of entertainment, it was a means of economic survival. My first job was working in a local sporting goods store. In those days anyone who practiced the "gutless method" was viewed as a wasteful slob hunter. Now everyone does it. Last year my dogs couldn't hunt pheasants half a day anywhere in Montana without getting into a rotten pile of deer bones. Relatively few people back then owned more than one hunting rifle. It was my experience growing up that the folks in my community who had to have "high caliber" hunting rifles were the ones who needed to be perceived as "high caliber." Optometrists, washed out teachers, doctors, lawyers, and such wannabe community big shots. Often short stature and/or obese. These were the guys who had to have overblown Weatherby magnums to hunt elk or custom 240 Gibbs to shoot pronghorn or 44 mag sidearm for bear defense (while road hunting deer). Now it seems everyone over here must have a different gun for every species of critter or even different weeks of hunting season. It's not the way I was raised. Not that the new ways are wrong, but am I wrong for clinging to the old ways? It worked for fifty years. Why mess with it?

What I find interesting, almost amusing, is the different culture of "change" on the two sides of the pond. Over here it's all about tech "advancement." Electronic scopes that can be "dialed in" for 1K yard shots (like that is "hunting"?), cameras to spy on game 24/7, drones, chronographs, wind meters, etc, etc. And the "advancements" in rifle technology ... sometimes I wonder if we shouldn't just come up with a new name for these things. Like when rifles replaced muskets as "guns."

In Africa the culture of change has been to step back to the "romance" of former times ... even though many of the professionals of that era had abandoned many of those now cherished romantic notions. For me, I go to Africa to hunt a good hunt and to enjoy beautiful and interesting topography and people. And, of course, the quantity and diversity of game is like nothing over here. I'm a historian with a house full of antiques I have restored. I do appreciate history but I also live in reality. There are advancements in technology that I don't need to be a better hunter. Trail cams might help me find where the better trophies are hanging out. But that's the camera doing the hunting, not me. When I find a good animal to shoot over here, I can take ALL the credit. My PH in Africa deserves most of the credit when I'm over there. He finds the animals, I shoot them. Credit ratio to me is about 80/20 but of course clients usually get 100%. I wish I could hunt alone in Africa but I understand and accept that it's too risky. Anyway, guided hunting fits the African "romance" culture.

Some technological advancements in hunting are acceptable to me if they make it more humane. I will not hesitate to use a cartridge with lighter bullet and less recoil if it provides the same potential to kill swiftly as a proven classic caliber/cartridge. Does that make me less "high caliber"? Perhaps. Is it important? Not to me ... and not to the animal that died quickly.

That’s great, but that does not make you unique on this site. Some of your experience extrapolates to DG, some does not. There are many here with far more experience in the primary focus area of this site. They are worth listening to.

 

[IvW]

404 Jeff and 375 H&H are two different things....
If a mixed bag is on the menu with 1 or 2 dg the 375 H&H can do it all....if more dg game is on the menu the 404 Jeff is a much better option....
For hunting elephant the 404 Jeff is most definately a much better option...

I am not opposed to new technology bullets, however I only use heavy for caliber bullets on dg....
High speed light for caliber bullets come with their own issues....in the African bush when hunting large dg....

My 2 DG rifles are 500 Jeff and 375 H&H. I have a second 375 H&H which is going to be rebarreled and built into a 404 Jeff to have the perfect 3 rifle dg set.

In terms of bullets I am in process of having 600gr .510 bullets made for the 500 Jeff.
For the 375 H&H I use 340gr and 300gr bullets.
For the 404 Jeff I am having 420gr bullets made.
I have never seen light for caliber bullets outperform a premium grade heavy bullet on dg.....

I have always been a believer in using meplat brass solids as they work wonderfully.
However we are also designing a new solid with a meplat and a cone which I will test and see how they go.

375 H&H is a great caliber and can do it all but in my opinion is just a bit too fast and the 300gr bullet sd barely makes the min.
404 Jeff is the perfect buffalo caliber in bolt action and much better performing on elephant.
500 Jeff has no equal and serious elephant hunting and backup for me is a game for the 500's....

The 404 Jeff will be on a dual licence and my daughter will also use it for dg and dg foot safaris as a backup rifle....

 

[Gert Odendaal]

I think it is prudent to measure the .375 H&H Magnum on it`s historical prowess. Please take time and buy yourself the Harry Manner`s book "Kambakhu" . The .375 H&H Magnum was this great African Hunter`s only dangerous game hunting rifle , he used it to kill many elephants at close quarters, dense bush and forests , open plains , he did feel the need for another rifle in his one rifle arsenal and bought another .375 H&H Magnum rifle as his back up rifle .
This says a lot of a .375 H&H Magnum rifle as a hunting rifle.
When members commence posting caliber comparison threads they do it from a literature perspective on the internet.

The history has already been written by hunters like Harry Manners who used the .375 H&H Magnum as his only Dangerous game rifle , back up rifle and companion. The only difference between the .375 H&H Magnum and the 404 Jeffery is the man behind the rifle who is able to use the rifle to devastating effect on an elephant or buffalo...

unfortunately the era of Harry Manners passed , no hunter will have the opportunity to accumulate /live /eat and sleep with a hunting rifle anymore ..since nowhere on the Africa continent are elephant and buffalo abundant enough to be shot and killed on the scale of what Harry Manners did in his time on earth.

What ever is written and posted on this thread is just literature and the experience of one or three or maybe five elephants hunted by one hunter over a period of maybe three to five years here in southern Africa countries like Mozambique, Botswana , Zimbabwe or South Africa ..just not enough hunting being done to remotely be able to give a valid opinion on the .375 H&H Magnum in comparison to 404 Jeffery ..and that includes me as well...the .375 H&H Magnum is a devastating caliber rifle ..as described by Harry Manners .

So before we enter in a "mine is bigger and longer than yours" conversation read Harry Manner`s book and decide then if you think the .375 H&H Magnum is not as effective as a 404 Jeffery when hunting for years in an African country when Africa was still wild and dangerous ..

 

[Hunting Hitman]

Good book and an excellent hunter. Here is just a quick internet search of famous elephant hunters with some of them describing the rifles used. Please note that many used the WR 318(probably due to availability)as the original rifle and then migrated to a larger bore rifle.
Not many used a 375 H&H and again I will state it’s a fine rifle and choice for DG…just not the best.

List of big-game hunters - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

HH

 

[Tokoloshe Safaris]

I own 2 .375 H&Hs & 4 .404Js. The one .375 H&H only comes out of the safe when a client wants a rental rifle. I will always reach for my original Jefferies .404. My wife has 1 .375 H&H and 1.404J the .375 H&H never sees the light of day. When something heavier is needed, both of us reach for our .470 doubles.

 

[Zambezi]

When the chips are down you need to concentrate on a brain shot ..the caliber is not going to keep you from being gored or impaled ....375 or 404 will not stop it with a poor shot placement...

Agreed. But like with all posts we always assume that the person pulling the trigger and the placement of the bullet is a given. That being said I'd still rather have the .404J in my hands.

 

[Nevada Mike]

In the case of DG... a big hole in the right spot is better than a smaller hole in the right spot. That's my story and I'm stickin' with it.

 

[IvW]

Amazing snd amusing that some folks with 0 dg game experience give advise on what to use and what not to use....

 

[Ontario Hunter]

In the case of DG... a big hole in the right spot is better than a smaller hole in the right spot. That's my story and I'm stickin' with it.

Yeah, sure. Bigger is always better. I knew a gal once who seemed to think that way. It was a short relationship.

I tell ya, I get no respect.

 

[Andrew62]

Either caliber is a great choice! I've taken 11 buffalo and 3 elephant with .375H&H, thousands of others have as well. If you have the means to buy a 404J, can handle the recoil, can deal with less availability of ammo, then go with the 404J, its a wonderful caliber. I just looked on Ammoseek.com, ZERO 404 ammo, 200 listings for .375H&H.

 

[DB404]

I’m sure you all will correct me if I am wrong, but didn’t DWM always load the .404 more heavily than the British firms? IIRC, they loaded a 400 grain bullet somewhere between 2200 and 2300 fps. I wish I could recall where I read that.

Hunting Hitman’s bringing up of the influence of culture and mythology within the shooting fraternity is spot on. We hamper ourselves a great deal when we worship “common sense”.

It was a popular thread in all the gun magazines back in the 60’s and 70’s that the average American couldn’t handle anything more robust than a .375 H&H. Ignored was the fact that those same wimps were busy shooting waterfowl with 3 and 3-1/2” mag 12 gauge guns which have recoil pushing into the .458 Winchester range.

So they can handle the recoil, but realistically, there isn’t a huge need in the western hemisphere for cartridges between the .375 and the .458 so there is no incentive to get such a firearm to use regularly (unless you’re like me and others here who “need” to play with toys that thump on both ends). Up until the ‘80s or so, there wasn’t much to pick from between the .375 and the .458, unless the shooter was aware of European cartridges or was a handloader and/or wildcatter.

Not many know it, but the patron saint of the .270 Winchester, Jack O’Connor, used a custom .416 Rigby on a sporterized 1917 Enfield when he hunted Africa and then shot a tiger in India. Nowadays we have a plethora of .40+ cartridges to pick from.

To me, handling recoil effectively starts with determination, then passes to stock shape and fit, then practice (reload, and run a lot of 75% to 80% rounds before moving up) then more practice, all while getting into as good of physical shape as you can. Cartridge choice is last. Why? With solids, nearly all of them will work - remember Bell? No, I’m not advocating small bores with solids, just pointing out that historically when applied to the correct spot, they work. Still will.

So it’s not about whether you’ve got a .375 or a .404 (they’re both great, but physics being what it is, the .404 is better, especially if they are used with equal skill). The sad truth is that many who yearn for either one of them would be better off with a 9.3x62 Mauser.

 

[steve white]

I think it is prudent to measure the .375 H&H Magnum on it`s historical prowess. Please take time and buy yourself the Harry Manner`s book "Kambakhu" . The .375 H&H Magnum was this great African Hunter`s only dangerous game hunting rifle , he used it to kill many elephants at close quarters, dense bush and forests , open plains , he did feel the need for another rifle in his one rifle arsenal and bought another .375 H&H Magnum rifle as his back up rifle .
This says a lot of a .375 H&H Magnum rifle as a hunting rifle.
When members commence posting caliber comparison threads they do it from a literature perspective on the internet.

The history has already been written by hunters like Harry Manners who used the .375 H&H Magnum as his only Dangerous game rifle , back up rifle and companion. The only difference between the .375 H&H Magnum and the 404 Jeffery is the man behind the rifle who is able to use the rifle to devastating effect on an elephant or buffalo...

unfortunately the era of Harry Manners passed , no hunter will have the opportunity to accumulate /live /eat and sleep with a hunting rifle anymore ..since nowhere on the Africa continent are elephant and buffalo abundant enough to be shot and killed on the scale of what Harry Manners did in his time on earth.

What ever is written and posted on this thread is just literature and the experience of one or three or maybe five elephants hunted by one hunter over a period of maybe three to five years here in southern Africa countries like Mozambique, Botswana , Zimbabwe or South Africa ..just not enough hunting being done to remotely be able to give a valid opinion on the .375 H&H Magnum in comparison to 404 Jeffery ..and that includes me as well...the .375 H&H Magnum is a devastating caliber rifle ..as described by Harry Manners .

So before we enter in a "mine is bigger and longer than yours" conversation read Harry Manner`s book and decide then if you think the .375 H&H Magnum is not as effective as a 404 Jeffery when hunting for years in an African country when Africa was still wild and dangerous ..

View attachment 541904

Of course, the book also states that the FIRST elephant he killed was with the 10.75x68 rifle, lol.

 

[IvW]

I think it is prudent to measure the .375 H&H Magnum on it`s historical prowess. Please take time and buy yourself the Harry Manner`s book "Kambakhu" . The .375 H&H Magnum was this great African Hunter`s only dangerous game hunting rifle , he used it to kill many elephants at close quarters, dense bush and forests , open plains , he did feel the need for another rifle in his one rifle arsenal and bought another .375 H&H Magnum rifle as his back up rifle .
This says a lot of a .375 H&H Magnum rifle as a hunting rifle.
When members commence posting caliber comparison threads they do it from a literature perspective on the internet.

The history has already been written by hunters like Harry Manners who used the .375 H&H Magnum as his only Dangerous game rifle , back up rifle and companion. The only difference between the .375 H&H Magnum and the 404 Jeffery is the man behind the rifle who is able to use the rifle to devastating effect on an elephant or buffalo...

unfortunately the era of Harry Manners passed , no hunter will have the opportunity to accumulate /live /eat and sleep with a hunting rifle anymore ..since nowhere on the Africa continent are elephant and buffalo abundant enough to be shot and killed on the scale of what Harry Manners did in his time on earth.

What ever is written and posted on this thread is just literature and the experience of one or three or maybe five elephants hunted by one hunter over a period of maybe three to five years here in southern Africa countries like Mozambique, Botswana , Zimbabwe or South Africa ..just not enough hunting being done to remotely be able to give a valid opinion on the .375 H&H Magnum in comparison to 404 Jeffery ..and that includes me as well...the .375 H&H Magnum is a devastating caliber rifle ..as described by Harry Manners .

So before we enter in a "mine is bigger and longer than yours" conversation read Harry Manner`s book and decide then if you think the .375 H&H Magnum is not as effective as a 404 Jeffery when hunting for years in an African country when Africa was still wild and dangerous ..

View attachment 541904

With 1 of the 375 H&H rifles he wounded a bull, first shot missing the brain his backup shot had no effect....neither the shot from the 10.75x68....his next back up shot as the elephant was busy killing his tracker was aimed at the root of the tail to spine the bull this shot had no effect....the bull swings around and charges....the next shot frontal....again does not stop the bull but causes him to throw his head up....the next shot below the mouth again does not drop the bull....but lucky for him the bull turns.....by this time his tracker is all but already dead....further follow up had the bull down but busy rising when a final shot ends the ordeal....

Since the 500 Jeffery is an image thing, if you are not able to kill a buffalo or elephant with a 375 cal, or. 416 cal or a. 423 cal rifle it means you negating the effective use of the capable calibers to only rely on a larger bullet diameter, not even including your own capability to use a medium bore rifle to kill a dangerous animal..
Aswell as negating the most important aspect:shot placement
. 500 Jeffery rarely are ussedd to hunt buffalo or elephant by a client, the PH uses it as a back up rifle..

You think the tracker would have died if a 500 Jeff was used instead?...
I think not but seeing as a 500 Jeff is for image only I might have to sneak off and trade it for another 375......

 

[IvW]

He also writes about having to "brain" shoot some bulls 3 times......

 

[Gert Odendaal]

With 1 of the 375 H&H rifles he wounded a bull, first shot missing the brain his backup shot had no effect....neither the shot from the 10.75x68....his next back up shot as the elephant was busy killing his tracker was aimed at the root of the tail to spine the bull this shot had no effect....the bull swings around and charges....the next shot frontal....again does not stop the bull but causes him to throw his head up....the next shot below the mouth again does not drop the bull....but lucky for him the bull turns.....by this time his tracker is all but already dead....further follow up had the bull down but busy rising when a final shot ends the ordeal....

You think the tracker would have died if a 500 Jeff was used instead?...
I think not but seeing as a 500 Jeff is for image only I might have to sneak off and trade it for another 375......

IvW, you missed this part " 500 Jeffery rarely are used to hunt buffalo or elephant by a client, the PH uses it as a back up rifle..the Harry Manners book give a perspective of how effective and deadly the .375 H&H Magnum is ..this book was a insight over many years and many, many buffalo/elephant hunted and killed by Harry Manners, including hunts that turned dangerous for the hunter and his tracker himself ..that unfortunately is something you have to accept will happen when you have hunted like Harry Manners ..

I can assure you even a PH with a .500 Jeffery is not excluded from a scenario where he will be trampled by a buffalo or elephant when he like Harry Manners hunted like Harry Manners and numerous "Old Era White Hunters did in those days ..


Like I pointed out a hunter like we on the forum rarely will be hunting with a .500 Jeffery...that is why this thread is about " .375H&H Magnum vs 404 Jeffery " two calibers owned by many members on this forum..I am not so sure the .500 Jeffery has the same following and ownership as the 375 and 404 calibers on this forum.

 

[Inline6]

Yeah, sure. Bigger is always better. I knew a gal once who seemed to think that way. It was a short relationship.

I tell ya, I get no respect.

I'll say, I like your sense of humor @Ontario Hunter

 

[Nevada Mike]

We are well down he rabbit hole now...

 

[IvW]

404 Jeff is far superior to 375 H&H for buffalo and up.....

Better velocity(standard 375 H&H is too fast for dg) bigger bullet......

I am in process with a reputable bullet manufacturer to design a 420gr bullet for the 404 Jeff @ +-2400fps it will be devistatingly effective.....

The 500 Jeff is in a class of its own.....we are also designing a 600gr bullet for the big daddy 500 Jeff.....

 

[IvW]

When the chips are down you need to concentrate on a brain shot ..the caliber is not going to keep you from being gored or impaled ....375 or 404 will not stop it with a poor shot placement...

Buffalo are easier to stop and kill with premium expanders than solids.....
Elephant solids all the way.....meplat brass solid not round nosed jacketed crap....

 

[IvW]

IvW, you missed this part " 500 Jeffery rarely are used to hunt buffalo or elephant by a client, the PH uses it as a back up rifle..the Harry Manners book give a perspective of how effective and deadly the .375 H&H Magnum is ..this book was a insight over many years and many, many buffalo/elephant hunted and killed by Harry Manners, including hunts that turned dangerous for the hunter and his tracker himself ..that unfortunately is something you have to accept will happen when you have hunted like Harry Manners ..

I can assure you even a PH with a .500 Jeffery is not excluded from a scenario where he will be trampled by a buffalo or elephant when he like Harry Manners hunted like Harry Manners and numerous "Old Era White Hunters did in those days ..


Like I pointed out a hunter like we on the forum rarely will be hunting with a .500 Jeffery...that is why this thread is about " .375H&H Magnum vs 404 Jeffery " two calibers owned by many members on this forum..I am not so sure the .500 Jeffery has the same following and ownership as the 375 and 404 calibers on this forum.

It is believed that Harry Manners never shot the Kambaku elephant......dont believe all you read.....