Calibers for rifle sight zeros at 150 yds, oh no…

One Day... · Friday at 7:56 PM

Jefferry404 said:
@One Day...
Same gunsmith thought I should have a full size, full blown practice rifle…22LR, holds 5 down
View attachment 805999
Only issue I have is the short bolt throw compare to the GMA African

Aaaahhhhh, a smart one he was, and it looks like our minds are meeting ("like two donkeys on their way to the water hole", my Mom would have added

) and twice, on this specific trainer subject.

Very nice rifle

Although I also have a Walther KKJ and a few Anschutz, my favorite trainer was a Winchester 52, because it has a little more bulk. And being able to train at dusk and dawn was worth putting a Zeiss on it.

This pic dates back some years. I was still using tripod sticks and a 6" plate at the time, and still needed to go on Forest Service land to practice. I need to get this Win 52 out of the safe and shoot it again

I do not know about you, but moving from tripod sticks to quad sticks shrank my groups by a couple inches at 100 yards.

Which brings an ancillary thought. I had to upgrade ammo from Thunderbolt to Eley Club, as the Thunderbolt does not hold an MOA and as I progressed a miss could be as well attributed to ammo as to me. With the Eley Club, the R8 holds 1 MOA, so if the 2 inch "plate" does not ring, it is on me...

10 rounds Eley Club from Blaser R8 at 100 yards

The short bolt throw was indeed a concern, it is easy to build a short stroking mechanical memory... I fully appreciate you mentioning that, and it tells a lot about your level of experience

The first thing I did when I got my Blaser R8 22 LR conversion is that I removed the action stop at the back of the .22 magazine (same on the .223 magazine), so I cycle at full .375-length rearward regardless of the caliber I am shooting

Action long back stroke on Blaser R8 .22 LR.jpg

Removing the action rearward movement stop at the back of the Blaser R8 .22 LR magazine allows to practice a full rearward long stroke even when training with .22.

Jefferry404 · Friday at 8:00 PM

@Wyit76
Actually, mathematically, bowling ball has twice the ballistic coefficient of the 525gn Gibbs

farmer_john · Friday at 10:49 PM

One Day... said:
Yes you can... and whether it be a .275, or a .375, or a .505 matters little

The answer to that is practice. And contrary to what many think, for lack of actual experience, it does not necessarily imply always practicing with full loads. Certainly, you can load training rounds for your .505 and it will help, but in truth, shooting form is better developed with a man-size bolt action .22 LR (e.g. Win 52, CZ 457, Walther KKJ, Anschutz 1761 or 1710 series, etc.) which will let you see your mistakes and flinches by not hiding them in blast and recoil.

Actually, budget allowing, tasking Roy Bedeaux to build you a .22 LR trainer on the template of your DG rifles could be really awesome. It has been done before, and is still being done. Few folks in their right minds believe that Blaser is selling a $2,000 .22 LR conversion for a $,5000 rifle (base price) for kids to plink tin cans with

The reason I now shoot my .458 Lott ~1.5+ MOA standing from the sticks (see above group) is because I shoot ~5,000 rounds of .22 LR per year off the quad sticks (I am blessed to live in AZ on a couple dozen acres and I have my own 100 yards shooting lane). But even a 25 yards urban indoor firing range will do just fine, just reduce the size of the target as you reduce the distance.

Additionally, in my case, the transfer of shooting form from .22 LR to .458 Lott (or .375, or .300, or .257, etc.) is facilitated by the fact that Blaser makes a .22 LR barrel for the R8, so I train with the exact rifle I hunt with. But this also works with different rifles.

Good shooting technique (proper shooting form i.e. handling of the rifle; rifle control; breathing control; trigger control; position on sticks; etc.) is the same whether the rifle on the sticks is a .22 or a .505. And when you learn to roll with the recoil rather than fight it -- the part that SStomcat still needs to learn, and no this is not an attack on him -- then standing behind a .22. a .375 or a .505 on the sticks does not really matter to how accurately you deliver your shot. BEWARE, as you probably know, this does not apply to the bench where big calibers will hammer you!

The issue, for most folks, is that it is impractical, physically (you would need to re-barrel every year!) and financially, to shoot several thousand rounds of DG caliber per year, so they show up in Africa having fired a few boxes in the last few months. It is not enough. You do not learn to ride a bike without thinking by going around the block just once. Burn .22 LR by the thousands until you hit a 2 inch "plate" (NOT a 12 or 8 incher or even a 6 incher) at 100 yard standing off the sticks without thinking, then 13" at 200 will become natural.

View attachment 806003
4, 3, and 2 inch "plates" at 100 yards

As to iron sights vs. scope, it is all a question of visual acuity. After cataract surgery on both eyes, and coming fast on the big 7oh, my iron sights days are over, but good DG glass keeps me in play

I fully agree with this advice. Shooting form is alot more inportant that specific caliber.

farmer_john · Friday at 10:53 PM

SStomcat said:
Oh, don't even go there. You'd be surprised how many rather erudite members reached out privately to express their anger and frustration at the audacity displayed by you and your cohorts on a public forum.

You made a spectacle of yourself then, and apparently, even that wasn't enough to teach you a lesson. Some people, it seems, are rather resistant to introspection.

I feel like im missing some inside joke/topic

Ontario Hunter · Friday at 11:36 PM

One Day... said:
An Eland vital area ("boiler room") is typically 17" in height and 21" in width.

If 3 hits in a 17"x21" area is "bang on" for you, that is totally OK with me, but it is hardly pertinent data to discuss seriously the ballistics of the .404 Jeff

No worries, all good, but I just thought that we should not confuse folks about a .404 Jeff shooting 400 gr as flat as a .300 Wby shooting 180 gr

First shot hit where expected right behind its left shoulder. As you can see it exited out the center of opposite shoulder. The other two shots were further back but none hit low. Second and third shots were a bit rushed ... needlessly as it turns out. I don't recall aiming high and certain my PH didn't tell me to aim high. He did tell me to aim high on giraffe because their vitals are supposed to be deceptively higher on body. I hit it high at 136 meters and it fell dead after running twenty yards. Look for the entrance wound just to the right of rifle barrel.

Ontario Hunter · Friday at 11:54 PM

Grumpy gumpy said:
One of those hits appears to be in the front 'elbow' another in the bottom of the lungs or upper intestine area, can’t see the third, so maybe that was the fatal one. An autopsy would show
Gumpy

The elbow is an exit wound. I thought I made that clear. First shot spun him around. The other two entrance wounds were almost in the same hole on the right side.

One Day... · 2026-11-07T01:25:17-0600

Ontario Hunter said:
First shot hit where expected right behind its left shoulder. As you can see it exited out the center of opposite shoulder. The other two shots were further back but none hit low. Second and third shots were a bit rushed ... needlessly as it turns out. I don't recall aiming high and certain my PH didn't tell me to aim high. He did tell me to aim high on giraffe because their vitals are supposed to be deceptively higher on body. I hit it high at 136 meters and it fell dead after running twenty yards. Look for the entrance wound just to the right of rifle barrel.
View attachment 806044

This is all good Ontario Hunter, you put the Eland down decisively and all those who hunted Eland appreciate that this is a tough, heavy, bullet-soaking animal.

For example, my first one required two solid hits from a .340 Wby launching 250 gr at 2.900 fps, and I up gunned to .375 300 gr for Eland after that, and would not feel out of place with a .40 for it.

The point that I was making, and that I think we can all agree upon, is that a .404 Jeff shooting a 400 gr bullet at 2,200 fps and sighted 1" high at 100 meters, does NOT shoot at point of aim / line of sight at 200 meters, but shoots between 7" and 8" low, depending of the height of the sighting device above bore axis.

That is all. This is a matter of easily verifiable fact, not a point of opinion with which to agree or disagree.

I am inviting you to shoot a 100 yards target, sighted 1" high, then a 200 yards target to verify this by yourself, and answer your own question about the accuracy of the Taylor chart that Jefferry404 was showing.

Observe that even if your shots dropped 7" at 200 yards, as they did, this is still well within the vital 17'x21" area of an Eland, hence your success, but just because your shots stayed "bang on in the boiler room", to paraphrase you, it does not mean that they landed at line of sight.

Again, no big deal, but the ballistics you described are those of a .300 Wby 180 gr, and I think that we all agree that the .404 Jeff 400 gr does not shoot that flat. That is all.

Grumpy gumpy · 2026-11-07T01:28:19-0600

Ontario Hunter said:
The elbow is an exit wound. I thought I made that clear. First shot spun him around. The other two entrance wounds were almost in the same hole on the right side.

No, you didn’t make it clear. If it was an exit, depending on the angle, then that was probably a fatal shot through the lungs as per sstomcat's anatomy pic
Gumpy

Ontario Hunter · 2026-11-07T02:50:17-0600

Grumpy gumpy said:
No, you didn’t make it clear. If it was an exit, depending on the angle, then that was probably a fatal shot through the lungs as per sstomcat's anatomy pic
Gumpy

Right. My mistake. It was another thread where I described it as an exit wound. All three shots were pass through. At that range the bullet velocity had dropped enough so that Barnes TSX apparently did not open up much but still had enough gas to exit the opposite sides even after hitting the "elbow." There was no autopsy. This bull was in terrible condition. He had been gored twice, once almost in the rectum and both wounds badly infected. You can see his ribs showing and back straps sunken. His left ear was completely gone from screw worms. The meat could not be sold so carcass left in the field. I was invited to shoot another but no opportunity as buffalo and giraffe remained on the list. If I aimed high I do not remember it. The bullets hit generally where expected. I was shooting downhill, not gently sloping but not steep either. My PH thought I could make the shot and, like you said, eland vitals are a big target. The next day we were at 200 meters from a giraffe facing us front on and he asked if I could make the shot and I did not hesitate to say no. I'm a good shot but not good enough to make a head shot on sticks at that range with my 404 ... or any rifle. Or trying to shoot through brush into its chest. Two days later he asked if I could make a slightly quartering away shot at 160 yards and again no. We stuck with her and she gave me a momentary broadside at 136 meters. I took it quickly without the quad sticks fully deployed and she toppled after running 25 yards.

I wish I could run that gun out to the range and take a couple shots at 100 & 200 yards (I have only zeroed it at 50 and 100) but I'm in Montana hunting and the arsehole at US border wouldn't let it across because I couldn't prove it came from US. I'm a US citizen and my guns have crossed at least once every year since 2006 with no problem. But apparently this current administration has some problem with Americans living in Canada. Or just Canada in general.

Tanks · 2026-11-07T10:05:38-0600

Ontario Hunter said:
wish I could run that gun out to the range and take a couple shots at 100 & 200 yards (I have only zeroed it at 50 and 100) but I'm in Montana hunting and the arsehole at US border wouldn't let it across because I couldn't prove it came from US.

You never filled form 4457 for it? Rookie mistake, methinks.

Ontario Hunter · 2026-11-07T10:43:44-0600

Tanks said:
You never filled form 4457 for it? Rookie mistake, methinks.

I don't need a 4457 because I don't live in US. I am a US citizen living in Canada. I was supposed to have Form 6.1a(?) completed for guns not originating in US. I always bring documentation to prove the guns came from Canada so I don't have to pay duty when I return. But that was not good enough for Dick Tracy.

Three years ago when entering the US at 3:00 a.m. I was asked the usual questions: where do I reside (no address on passports!) and purpose of my visit. Going hunting with my brother in Montana. Same old routine. "Well, have a great trip and happy hunting." "Wait a minute. I've never been asked but wonder do I need a Form 6 for these guns even though I'm US not Canadian citizen?" She didn't know. Her supervisor didn't know. "You're good to go but if you really want to know I'll call the office in Seattle." Coffee was fresh so I went in for a cup and waited. "They say you're fine. It's your constitutional right etc"

But apparently something new now dictates any gun a US citizen brings from Canada must be proven to originate in US or Form 6 plus waiting period is required. Fortunately I had the registration document for Korea when I purchased the one shotgun at PX in 1972. It listed my home address in Montana. The Springfield 03A3 emigrated with me in 1989 but I only brought current Canadian temporary export permit for August safari as proof of ownership. Not good enough for Joe Friday. So I phoned my daughter: "Go over to the house. Inside the walk-in closet on shelf to left you see a folder sticking out. Open it and look for stamped yellow sheet of paper listing everything I declared when I immigrated." She texted me a photo and supercop accepted it. Daughter's girlfriend owns a fishing lodge about forty miles from the border crossing and she agreed to store the 404 and A5 magnum till I return. I have been crossing the border every year for twenty years with those guns and never a problem. The 404 crossed twice in 2023 when I was building it and then to go hunting. This is the first time I didn't cross during the middle of the night. I'm guessing that's the difference? No one seems to know if this is a new regulation but appears it might be.

One Day... · 2026-11-07T15:37:07-0600

Ontario Hunter said:
Right. My mistake. It was another thread where I described it as an exit wound. All three shots were pass through. At that range the bullet velocity had dropped enough so that Barnes TSX apparently did not open up much but still had enough gas to exit the opposite sides even after hitting the "elbow." There was no autopsy. This bull was in terrible condition. He had been gored twice, once almost in the rectum and both wounds badly infected. You can see his ribs showing and back straps sunken. His left ear was completely gone from screw worms. The meat could not be sold so carcass left in the field. I was invited to shoot another but no opportunity as buffalo and giraffe remained on the list. If I aimed high I do not remember it. The bullets hit generally where expected. I was shooting downhill, not gently sloping but not steep either. My PH thought I could make the shot and, like you said, eland vitals are a big target. The next day we were at 200 meters from a giraffe facing us front on and he asked if I could make the shot and I did not hesitate to say no. I'm a good shot but not good enough to make a head shot on sticks at that range with my 404 ... or any rifle. Or trying to shoot through brush into its chest. Two days later he asked if I could make a slightly quartering away shot at 160 yards and again no. We stuck with her and she gave me a momentary broadside at 136 meters. I took it quickly without the quad sticks fully deployed and she toppled after running 25 yards.

I wish I could run that gun out to the range and take a couple shots at 100 & 200 yards (I have only zeroed it at 50 and 100) but I'm in Montana hunting and the arsehole at US border wouldn't let it across because I couldn't prove it came from US. I'm a US citizen and my guns have crossed at least once every year since 2006 with no problem. But apparently this current administration has some problem with Americans living in Canada. Or just Canada in general.

Nice Giraffe

Based on the experiences you relate -- the rifle shooting about point of aim at 200 meters -- my guess is that you will find that your zero is actually 2 to 3" higher than you think at 100 meters. The ballistic app says 4" high at 100 meters for 0 at 200.

A lot of mysterious things happen to scopes and scope mounts rattled for days in a safari bakkie over rough terrain, so it would not be the first time there is a zero shift on safari...

I have no idea what scope you shoot, Ontario Hunter, so this is not a comment directed at you, but as a general consideration, this is where 1-6x scopes actually designed for DG hunting by proven manufacturers with decades of experience are worth every additional penny over the less expensive 1-6x scopes designed for AR15s, but I am digressing...

Note: you would be surprised by the results we get when asking clients to re-zero in mid safari after a couple misses... Loose base screws, loose ring screws (apparently few people own a basic Wheeler FAT torque wrench), messed up erector tube internals, etc. This is when saving $500 on the scope ends up costing you $ thousands in wounded game trophy fees, and when the famous "no question asked lifelong replacement warranty" does not do you a whole lot of good when your scope has broken on safari...

Actually it happens a lot more than folks think, but on large animals such as Eland, Giraffe, or Buffalo, or even Wildebeest or Kudu, this often does not matter too much. For example, on a Giraffe, 7" does not make a big difference. It is typically less than the size of one brown patch.

Where this would have a negative impact is if you attempted to collect a small trophy of opportunity, like bumping into a Steenbok or Duiker while hunting something bigger, as often happens in South Africa, or even an Impala of Springbok. On these, a 7" drop would likely make the shot pass below the belly, or worse cut a front leg.

Where consequences could be dire would be on Lion or Leopard, or Elephant brain shot. After all, this IS a DG rifle...

No worries, you will have plenty of time to check that later when you are back home, and it will be interesting to hear back from you on that, but it is very unlikely that the various ballistic software a number of us use are wrong, and for those who get their knowledge from Google AI, I tried just to see, and it got it right.

Ontario Hunter · 2026-11-07T18:56:06-0600

One Day... said:
Nice Giraffe

Based on the experiences you relate -- the rifle shooting about point of aim at 200 meters -- my guess is that you will find that your zero is actually 2 to 3" higher than you think at 100 meters. The ballistic app says 4" high at 100 meters for 0 at 200.

A lot of mysterious things happen to scopes and scope mounts rattled for days in a safari bakkie over rough terrain, so it would not be the first time there is a zero shift on safari...

I have no idea what scope you shoot, Ontario Hunter, so this is not a comment directed at you, but as a general consideration, this is where 1-6x scopes actually designed for DG hunting by proven manufacturers with decades of experience are worth every additional penny over the less expensive 1-6x scopes designed for AR15s, but I am digressing...

Note: you would be surprised by the results we get when asking clients to re-zero in mid safari after a couple misses... Loose base screws, loose ring screws (apparently few people own a basic Wheeler FAT torque wrench), messed up erector tube internals, etc. This is when saving $500 on the scope ends up costing you $ thousands in wounded game trophy fees, and when the famous "no question asked lifelong replacement warranty" does not do you a whole lot of good when your scope has broken on safari...

Actually it happens a lot more than folks think, but on large animals such as Eland, Giraffe, or Buffalo, or even Wildebeest or Kudu, this often does not matter too much. For example, on a Giraffe, 7" does not make a big difference. It is typically less than the size of one brown patch.

Where this would have a negative impact is if you attempted to collect a small trophy of opportunity, like bumping into a Steenbok or Duiker while hunting something bigger, as often happens in South Africa, or even an Impala of Springbok. On these, a 7" drop would likely make the shot pass below the belly, or worse cut a front leg.

Where consequences could be dire would be on Lion or Leopard, or Elephant brain shot. After all, this IS a DG rifle...

No worries, you will have plenty of time to check that later when you are back home, and it will be interesting to hear back from you on that, but it is very unlikely that the various ballistic software a number of us use are wrong, and for those who get their knowledge from Google AI, I tried just to see, and it got it right.

View attachment 806161

It's only a 1-4x Bushnell with 30mm tube. The base is a discontinued Weaver one-piece that sits very low (receiver was tapped for three-hole one-piece base by previous owner). The gun also wears Winchester Safari Express iron sights and Warne QD rings. I actually shoot the irons fairly accurately out to 100 meters (<2 MOA). If the scope ever goes wonky, I'm ready to shoot irons. I did send the scope back on warrantee before it ever went hunting. Turns out it was operator error (and messed up instructions sheet) so the scope was fine. It's no frills reticle and basic covered turrets. Works great.

Keep in mind I shot a giraffe and buffalo in the two days following taking the eland. I had to shoot over a cow buff with calf to take the dry cow culling target laying down in the shadows. PH said take that one and I did. One shot @ 110 meters and she maybe ran 25 yards before tipping over. Not even a death bellow.

On the way back to farm complex to put her in the salt, we spotted a very nice nyala bull in the thick stuff that hadn't spotted us. I have a nice one on the wall but wanted a good backskin. Grabbed my 30-06 from the back seat and put him down with one quick shot after a tricky stalk in heavy cover. No need to waste expensive 404 ammo. Old bugger was in tough shape. His backskin and cape were no good, but a nice set of horns, better than my first one I think.

Not a real fancy scope but it has served its purpose well so far.

One Day... · 2026-11-07T19:18:22-0600

Ontario Hunter said:
View attachment 806207
It's only a 1-4x Bushnell with 30mm tube. The base is a discontinued Weaver one-piece that sits very low (receiver was tapped for three-hole one-piece base by previous owner). The gun also wears Winchester Safari Express iron sights and Warne QD rings. I actually shoot the irons fairly accurately out to 100 meters (<2 MOA). If the scope ever goes wonky, I'm ready to shoot irons. I did send the scope back on warrantee before it ever went hunting. Turns out it was operator error (and messed up instructions sheet) so the scope was fine. It's no frills reticle and basic covered turrets. Works great.

Keep in mind I shot a giraffe and buffalo in the two days following taking the eland. I had to shoot over a cow buff with calf to take the dry cow culling target laying down in the shadows. PH said take that one and I did. One shot @ 110 meters and she maybe ran 25 yards before tipping over. Not even a death bellow.
View attachment 806211
On the way back to farm complex to put her in the salt, we spotted a very nice nyala bull in the thick stuff that hadn't spotted us. I have a nice one on the wall but wanted a good backskin. Grabbed my 30-06 from the back seat and put him down with one quick shot after a tricky stalk in heavy cover. No need to waste expensive 404 ammo. Old bugger was in tough shape. His backskin and cape were no good, but a nice set of horns, better than my first one I think.
View attachment 806212
Not a real fancy scope but it has served its purpose well so far.

Nice Nyala

If I were you I would check the .404 zero nonetheless. As mentioned before, Giraffe and cow Buff are big targets, and putting them nicely on the ground may hide a zero shift due to the size of their vital...

Ontario Hunter · 2026-11-07T19:28:05-0600

One Day... said:
Nice Nyala

If I were you I would check the .404 zero nonetheless. As mentioned before, Giraffe and cow Buff are bit targets, and putting them nicely on the ground may hide a zero shift due to the size of their vital...

Sure, I'll check it before it goes out again. Like all rifles for hunting. That 404 will never be used for anything but large animal targets ... unless I can maybe get it to work with lighter weight bullets (e.g. 325 gr). If it was here with me now it would have been checked when I ran a couple rounds through the 03A3 at the range. It shot bullets on top of each other in the bull at 100 yards. It has a BDC reticle that I can compensate for out to 200 if necessary but most of my deer here have been taken 100 or less so I left it as is.

Ontario Hunter · 2026-11-07T19:30:10-0600

Hedge774 said:
Old boy?

Very old. No hair which I understand is a trademark for over-the-hill eland bulls. It's why they're called "blue bulls."

Wyit76 · 2026-11-07T19:38:22-0600

Jefferry404 said:
@Wyit76
Actually, mathematically, bowing ball has twice the ballistic coefficient of the 525gn Gibbs

You learn something new everyday!

Jefferry404 · 2026-11-08T07:26:28-0600

hmmm, this thread went well.....

Calibers for rifle sight zeros at 150 yds, oh no…

One Day...

Jefferry404

farmer_john

farmer_john

Ontario Hunter

Ontario Hunter

One Day...

Grumpy gumpy

Ontario Hunter

Tanks

Ontario Hunter

One Day...

Ontario Hunter

One Day...

Ontario Hunter

Ontario Hunter

Wyit76

Jefferry404

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