Vetting Outfitters And Shady Practices

he hasn't even Paid the PH ( was there for Mary and I ) that brought two land cruisers to be used in the hunt, one was for the outfitter and the other was for us,
he the outfitter rented them from my PH for the hunt!!!
if he's not being paid, im surely not confident we will get our animals,
would you be?
You have the point.
But if that does not happen, it would be ugly.

Looking back at the history of the forum which I follow and participate in for last 10 years, there have been cases when outfitters offered quite a good corrective or compensation action when safari went wrong.

Good thing is that this forum is open for public, and everybody can read it, not only members.
It means now outfitters reputation is at stake.

30.000 forum members. Big money involved.
Safari world reading.
(And we are very small world)

Outfitters reputation hanging between gutter and the stars. Well, ok, maybe not the stars....
 
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he hasn't even Paid the PH ( was there for Mary and I ) that brought two land cruisers to be used in the hunt, one was for the outfitter and the other was for us,
he the outfitter rented them from my PH for the hunt!!!
if he's not being paid, im surely not confident we will get our animals,
would you be?
You probably don’t want to hear this, but this situation very much falls under the title of shady outfitters and practices. I’m not sure you really had an outfitter. The concession holder runs the camp and owns the quota then you had a freelance PH do the hunt. The “outfitter” is someone in middle marketing hunts from sounds of it. You actually had a really Great Plains game hunt at a very fair price for massailand. Your trophy situation is a bad deal, but it should be a lesson learned to cut out middlemen and deal directly with outfitters that hold the concessions and employ full time PHs directly. The cheapest advertised deals often come with problems. Painful lesson to learn, but should help choose better In future. Going rate in massailand for 10 day buffalo hunt starts around $30k with reputable outfitters for comparison.
 
You probably don’t want to hear this, but this situation very much falls under the title of shady outfitters and practices. I’m not sure you really had an outfitter. The concession holder runs the camp and owns the quota then you had a freelance PH do the hunt. The “outfitter” is someone in middle marketing hunts from sounds of it. You actually had a really Great Plains game hunt at a very fair price for massailand. Your trophy situation is a bad deal, but it should be a lesson learned to cut out middlemen and deal directly with outfitters that hold the concessions and employ full time PHs directly. The cheapest advertised deals often come with problems. Painful lesson to learn, but should help choose better In future. Going rate in massailand for 10 day buffalo hunt starts around $30k with reputable outfitters for comparison.
We live and we learn
 
Not trying to "stir the pot" but for information purposes, a South African PH was an observer on our African jungle hunt with the other hunter in Cameroon in late 2024.

In speaking with him over the hunt in the evenings, he said there is a lot of shady antics in Tanzania and to watch the outfitters and PHs up there very closely. I bet these situations can occur in other countries other than just Tanzania... From the above posts, I am starting to understand his comment.

Good luck to all this season and happy hunting to all, TheGrayRider a/k/a Tom.
 
This was Shaw & Hunter’s first season operating in this concession. Before committing to the area, we were assured by the concession owner that buffalo were present and that the area could support the hunts being offered. A buffalo was successfully hunted early in the season. However, as the area dried out, buffalo disappeared from the hunting area due to increasing Maasai and cattle encroachment and lack of water sources.

The booking agent has previously sent clients to us for successful hunts. Those hunts took place in a different area, as advertised. Lunda Nkwambe is not in Maasailand, and experiences in these two areas should not be confused.

We recognise the clients’ disappointment and do not dismiss it. However, there are always two sides to every story. Before presenting one account as the complete picture, it would be fair to contact Shaw & Hunter directly and give us the opportunity to explain our experience and the circumstances surrounding these hunts.
clearly there's only one side to this story since you would not engage!!
 
This is my .02 and I STRONGLY disagree with that. This is where I think communication and understanding the clients wishes is key. It’s also where I think the goals of Tracks Across Africa and the Meat Eater videos diverge.

IMO if the PH or Outfitter is/was afraid of the backlash from taking a legal lone male lion on film he/they shouldn’t have and wouldn’t have booked/sold the hunt. The only exception is unless he/they didn’t expect to get a legal male lion on bait without a pride. I DO NOT think that is or was a thought of the Morgan’s and I AM NOT accusing him of RHS of that. I honestly and truly believe Morgan has a very unique and idealistic view on the role of hunting within the sphere of conservation and game management. For certain clients that’s great but they need to completely understand.

I forget if I heard it in the meat eater podcast or video, but at one point I vaguely recall hearing “you need to be prepared to go home with nothing”. It’s possible that was my interpretation of what he was telling Rinella because of Rinella’s preconceived notions on what hunting in Africa was. I think Morgan is/was the perfect PH for a hunter like Rinella and the Meat Eater Series. I think he’d be great for a Dan Cabela type of conservationist, an Allen Bolen or Daniel Welker who specifically target Boone and Crockett animals and pass anything else.

Morgan was IMO the best PH for the Meat Eater series because so many non hunters, and non trophy hunters watch it. I believe it might’ve been one of the best things for hunting in Africa and is a great tool to show it in a positive light and how it aids conservation. It’s exactly the opposite of the High Fence South African Trophy Hunting image most think about when they hear hunting in Africa. Conversely Tracks Across Africa, Dark and Dangerous, Safari Classics, and any other shows focused on Africa are marketed to the hunter who’s at least familiar with hunting in Africa, who has a desire or maybe even a curiosity to go. As a viewer of these shows, I want to see wild places, wild situations, charges, and big animals hunted and killed (that exceed my budget). I do think because of modern times and political correctness that attitude in production is softening and they’re trying to show more of the benefits hunting in Africa has as well. I could be incredibly wrong, but that’s my perception.

I do however stand by if a PH has any fear of reprisal or repercussions from hunting any legal animal they’re in the wrong line of work.
I’m just struggling to understand if it was a represenative legal lion why the PH did not let the client shoot. I would be extremely upset if this was the case. On all my safaries I tell the PH I want a mature representative legal animal that’s it. just me
 
I’m just struggling to understand if it was a represenative legal lion why the PH did not let the client shoot. I would be extremely upset if this was the case. On all my safaries I tell the PH I want a mature representative legal animal that’s it. just me
You don’t hunt pride males because the new male will kill all the previous male’s young cubs to breed the females again. It could potentially have a negative impact on lion population in area. Most outfitters have it written in their policies. However, most PH’s are going to make a reasonable effort to say it’s not a pride male, not look for any reason it might be a pride male.
 
Ah, wow pride male seems to really be a judgement call far beyond the legal age of the cat
Should be Trail camera photos of lion coming in to bait with pride or recent photos of known prides in area. The “judgment” in this case seems overzealous at best, something else at worst.
 
shyster
/ˈSHīstər/
A shyster is an informal, derogatory term for a dishonest or unscrupulous person.
 
Good thread with good material for both those new to hunting Africa and for the old hands.

In reading this thread I was surprised to see the name Shaw & Hunter. (J.A.Hunter). When I was much younger they were “the” gun store in Nairobi before changing their name to Nairobi Bunduki. They also gave out the annual Shaw & Hunter awards to members of the EAPHA. I thought they were gone by the time Kenya banned hunting in 1978. I don’t know if the business in some form has been in continuous service over all these years or if this is a situation where people have rekindled an old name. Regardless it brings back some memories.
 
As per their web page, they claim legacy and continuation of operations since old days.
But overall I am not impressed, after reading this thread.

More than once on this forum I have seen legendary outfitters or PH failing in providing first class service (or successful hunt - "because it is hunting, you know").
But never failed to charge the bill which is in line with their reputation
On the other hand, I hunted with less known outfitters and had excellent experiences. Maybe it was just my luck.
 
Last year a pal of me went to one of the big shows . He was looking for a epic Tanzania tour , at foot like they did in the golden years .

One last safari in case things went wrong later on and prevented latter ones .


Well he was standing by the booths and chatting , walking the endless miles that cost so much compared with the 10000 steps outside .


He came across a Tanz booth and started talking , one of the Tanz Nestors / mentors for many was there and personally vetted for the outfitter .

This man spoke and « sold « a safari like it was 1970s one

There was also to be a photographer to film it all .

I’n very short it went bust , little game , wrong region for it , money owed , none would like to do right . Outfitter trying on bad tactics to lure more money out of the days

The photographer Mia since then , not been heard from , whether of natural causes or his own . No film turned up .


Outfitter partly in hidingnon SoMe . But he is still scamming people around there .



And when he came back and notified the place where it was bought at , SCI didn’t care at all . Supported the outfitter instead .

Gone was decades of support for them it was .

I’ll post the names later , but I’ll think we’ll get to read about it in his next book . That may be interesting for many . And not
So interesting for the few .
 
I have some secondhand details on the hunt. The pricing is very good even just for a plains game hunt in massailand. To me, the client got a very good PG hunt at very attractive pricing, but selling it as a buffalo hunt is a stretch. All those concessions are very water dependent and change as they dry up and game moves back into the park. Selling the hunt as a PG hunt with Buffalo opportunity would be more realistic and honest. You might not like the wording shady, but I think overly optimistic would be accurate. Less experienced clients want to believe they just found a great deal. I think it’s a valid lesson. Asking outfitters and ph how long they’ve hunted concession is an important question to ask before booking.
according to the owner of the property we were hunting, theirs no buffalo there and never was, the hunter that they had their earlier in the year was taken to another place to hunt buffalo,
they clearly knew we were coming to hunt multiple buffalo and the simply lied!!
I truly hope we get our plains game trophies but its not looking good
 
according to the owner of the property we were hunting, theirs no buffalo there and never was, the hunter that they had their earlier in the year was taken to another place to hunt buffalo,
they clearly knew we were coming to hunt multiple buffalo and the simply lied!!
I truly hope we get our plains game trophies but its not looking good
Not to try and be controversial…but… how much did you pay for this hunt?
I don’t want to excuse some really bad behavior by the booking agent/outfitter but I think you may be leaving out a major component maybe?
My point is were there not some MAJOR Red Flags up front on this? Like if it’s too good to be true it probably is ( and particularly if it’s way way too good to be true)
Like a Multiple Buff Masaii hunt with plains game proved literally at the low end of just a basic plains game hunt there (which thankfully you got)?
It sounds basically like fraud was committed in terms of what was sold (which is inexcusable) but the actual price and what was actually delivered based on that was actually realistic (which constituted fraud in the inducement)
It also sounds a bit like the Inspector from Casa Blanca….Im shocked…shocked gambling is going on in here
 
Not to try and be controversial…but… how much did you pay for this hunt?
I don’t want to excuse some really bad behavior by the booking agent/outfitter but I think you may be leaving out a major component maybe?
My point is were there not some MAJOR Red Flags up front on this? Like if it’s too good to be true it probably is ( and particularly if it’s way way too good to be true)
Like a Multiple Buff Masaii hunt with plains game proved literally at the low end of just a basic plains game hunt there (which thankfully you got)?
It sounds basically like fraud was committed in terms of what was sold (which is inexcusable) but the actual price and what was actually delivered based on that was actually realistic (which constituted fraud in the inducement)
It also sounds a bit like the Inspector from Casa Blanca….Im shocked…shocked gambling is going on in here
I had made a post in response and deleted it earlier. That’s the question to ask. If something is too good to be true it usually is. I can’t blame the outfitter, PH, agent whoever for everything in every circumstance.
 
Not to try and be controversial…but… how much did you pay for this hunt?
I don’t want to excuse some really bad behavior by the booking agent/outfitter but I think you may be leaving out a major component maybe?
My point is were there not some MAJOR Red Flags up front on this? Like if it’s too good to be true it probably is ( and particularly if it’s way way too good to be true)
Like a Multiple Buff Masaii hunt with plains game proved literally at the low end of just a basic plains game hunt there (which thankfully you got)?
It sounds basically like fraud was committed in terms of what was sold (which is inexcusable) but the actual price and what was actually delivered based on that was actually realistic (which constituted fraud in the inducement)
It also sounds a bit like the Inspector from Casa Blanca….Im shocked…shocked gambling is going on in here
"Round up the usual suspects"
 
I had made a post in response and deleted it earlier. That’s the question to ask. If something is too good to be true it usually is. I can’t blame the outfitter, PH, agent whoever for everything in every circumstance.
My thoughts exactly. I recently saw an end of season lion hunt advertised with $600 daily rates and $25k trophy fee. That has to be the cheapest lion hunt I've seen. It may be a perfectly good deal with some leftover quota or a cancellation but I would ask a ton of questions before booking.

Maybe I'm foolish but "buy once cry once" applies to the hunts as much as it does the gear.
 

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